Silent and Failsafe Overflow System

[saf1]

Great diagram, thanks. Not sure why I was making it seem more difficult than it should have been.

[Elricsfate]

I apologize in advance because I posted this question elsewhere.

The soon to be released Vertex Shadow overflow appears to us a design very similar to this, except the pipes are at different heights, and there does not appear to be any air line or caps. They use two propriety U shaped fittings which simply rest below the water level.

I am wondering if this will provide the same safe and quiet operation that Bean Animal overflow is designed to provide.

Sorry for the simple questions. I'm not a plumber.

Thanks in advance

[Floyd R Turbo]

Do you mean Synergy Reef? Theirs is a internal/external variant of the BA system...I'm sure there is an airline, or maybe just a hole on the OC pipe for air (this works also BTW, you don't "need" a JG fitting and an airline...)

It works almost exactly the same.

[Mishri]

yeah on the synergy reef shadow overflow you can see a picture, there is a hole in the top of each of the 2 u pipes. It's safe/silent, works just like the bean animal style.

[Elricsfate]

Thank you.

Yes, I did in fact mean the Synergy Reef Shadow. Sorry, I've been looking at a lot of sites lately, as I am building my first tank intended to (eventually) hold corals.

[Elricsfate]

So, should both holes be above the water level? It seems like (if my understanding is correct) that the BA uses one full siphon with an inlet below the water surface, and one partial siphon with an airline above the water surface.

This setup has a hole in both pipes. Should one have the hole below the surface and the other be slightly above it?

Sorry for the beginner questions...

[Floyd R Turbo]

What setup are you referring to? The siphon line never has a hole, or shouldn't (IMO)...

Technically in the raw form, the siphon and OC pipes can be at exactly the same level. What makes them function differently is the airline/hole

So in an internal/external pass-through setup, usually what I do is have the siphon as low as possible and the OC a bit higher, when it balances out the 180 "U" pipe for the siphon can be out of the water at the top, and if the OC is at the same level, same - which will make it operate differently, has to do with flow dynamics.

You can actually take an OC pipe in an external box with a 180 "U" bend pipe and a JG fitting and airline and submerge it completely and as long as the airline end isn't occluded it will not siphon. It might close off and start to gurgle, and might flush out the box, but it won't steady-state, generally. That's where height adjustment comes into play

[Elricsfate]

I'm referring to the Ghost overflow. As was noted above, both pipes have a hole in the top of the bend, from the manufacturer. In their directions the main pipe is set at one height, the OC pipe is one inch higher, and the emergency is several inches higher.

So I'm assuming that you actually do install an air line in the OC bend, or that it naturally sits slightly above the water level.

Again, I'm not a plumber or a fluid dynamics guy. So some of this is (I'm sure) rather simple, but not entirely clear to me.

[Floyd R Turbo]

In that suggested setup, the siphon line would be fully under (thus, hole covered) and the OC hole would stick up above the water line, since there is a level difference.

Though my feeling is the siphon line should never have a hole. If you had a scenario where the pump flow dropped and the siphon line drew the box down a bit, you woudn't want the fact that the top of the siphon line becoming exposed to air to break the siphon. Not at all IMO. There is just no reason for the siphon line to have a hole. Period. So I'm gonna check with Rick on that one

[Floyd R Turbo]

I stand corrected, after a bunch of testing apparently the hole in the siphon line solves some issues with airlocking on startup on certain plumbing configs and doesn't cause any functionality issues.

But for a DIYer recommendation, I wouldn't go there yet

[Floyd R Turbo]

You brought my diagram to life!!

[Elricsfate]

Thank you all for your kind assistance. The reason for the questions is that I actually ordered the 20 in Synergy overflow, which does not come with the U flow connectors. I intended to copy the Shadow's setup in the 20 in, and needed to understand how it should be done.

I truly appreciate your help. This is what makes this hobby great! Hopefully somewhere down the road I'll be one of the "old salts" handing out advice and answering questions.

[saf1]

Didn't think about this until today but quick question (more than likely a dumb one).

On a peninsula style build with the Bean Animal overflow on the side what does that do to water movement by wave makers, return, or other flow devices in the tank? Or maybe it doesn't matter and only affects the surface layer?

My return bulkhead entry point is on the overflow so I was thinking it would push / return against the incoming flow and might cause issues. Which then lead me on my conundrum has to what would be ideal and placement I'm thinking the surface is the only thing impacted and what happens lower doesn't matter and will see the effects of wave patterns if present.

[uncleof6]

Originally Posted by saf1

Didn't think about this until today but quick question (more than likely a dumb one).

On a peninsula style build with the Bean Animal overflow on the side what does that do to water movement by wave makers, return, or other flow devices in the tank? Or maybe it doesn't matter and only affects the surface layer?

My return bulkhead entry point is on the overflow so I was thinking it would push / return against the incoming flow and might cause issues. Which then lead me on my conundrum has to what would be ideal and placement I'm thinking the surface is the only thing impacted and what happens lower doesn't matter and will see the effects of wave patterns if present.

Well, technically you are correct. However, if the return flow is angled down and away from the overflow end it should be alright. The biggest problem is pulling water the length of the tank. (rather than the width as it would in a more "traditional" setup.) As far as under the surface, that matters too. You need to bring water up from the bottom to the top, out the overflow, then back into the tank towards the bottom (not really) to force water up to the surface. This is what powerheads are for, to create a well mixed circular flow pattern.

[saf1]

Originally Posted by uncleof6

Well, technically you are correct. However, if the return flow is angled down and away from the overflow end it should be alright. The biggest problem is pulling water the length of the tank. (rather than the width as it would in a more "traditional" setup.) As far as under the surface, that matters too. You need to bring water up from the bottom to the top, out the overflow, then back into the tank towards the bottom (not really) to force water up to the surface. This is what powerheads are for, to create a well mixed circular flow pattern.

The original design was going to use the full width and back tank but then we thought maybe we would notch the and have it visible from the other side. I'm not sure if I want to do that now but the option is there I guess.

Thank you for the information. I'll have to double check once it arrives to see if I can plumb it properly has you describe. I believe I can. If not I'm sure there are other options. I don't think I need an crazy abundance of flow though because I mainly keep soft and LPS corals. There may be one or two for a reef crest of SPS such as a birds nest or something similar. But your note on bringing up water from the bottom is what I need to make sure of.

Thanks again. Have a good day.

[uncleof6]

Interesting. I started working with this system in early 2008; and through 2009 - 2010, I went through a process of converting ~250 running systems to the Bean Animal style drain system. These conversions were done/attempted in place with the existing overflows/boxes. The configurations were internal, as well as internal/external (aka Glass-holes style.) Some systems required more extensive modification, in order to get the Bean Animal system to function properly, as maintaining the basic relationships between the three drain lines was not possible.

The results of "our work" over the years (myself and the actual designer of the system: Bean Animal) has shown that the only time there is a problem with the system, is if the implementer modifies the system to the point that the basic relationships between the three drain lines are altered, and the system does not properly start.

If the main "siphon" or "primary" airlocks, it is due to the open channel taking to much flow, too soon; and often because the open channel trips to "siphon mode" before the "siphon" purges all the air (the secondary cause is the drain outlets being too deep in the sump.) This is 99.99 % an implementation error. Put simply, the head height is insufficient to purge the air out of the siphon line, because the criteria is a "small package" rather than good sound functional design.

Modifications to Bean's system, can be accomplished. However, if the basic relationships are altered, the system will not function the way it is supposed to. If the relationships are maintained, the system has no issues starting. It is repetitive, 100% of the time. If a hole in the siphon is needed to keep it from air locking, it is an implementation flaw.

It really does not matter what it is called, it is based on the design and operating principles of Bean's system, and it is subject to the same constraints in terms of modifications from Bean's original design.

[uncleof6]

Originally Posted by Synergy Reef

hahaha. I brought it to life a long time ago.

Interesting. I do have a question however: what gave you the idea to put three drain standpipes, of any configuration, in an external overflow that you "brought to life a long time ago?" E.G. where did you get the idea for the “Ghost Overflow,” or where did Synergy get it, back in 2011?


I have a couple other questions concerning the design criteria, (small weirs with teeth vs more efficient longer flat weirs, for one) however this thread is about Bean Animal’s design, nor Reef Savvy or Synergy modifications of that design.


"Overflow: Top Secret Reef Savvy overflow build by Synergy Reef Systems. More details will be released at MACNA 2013." (I did not wish to post a link to another forum)

[jason2459]

Originally Posted by Floyd R Turbo

You brought my diagram to life!!

That's how I've had my overflow setup since 2011.






Working like a champ. Full siphon can't really see under the water up top. Middle emergency. Bottom open channel.



Thak you again and again BeanAnimal![/QUOTE]

[BeanAnimal]

Originally Posted by Floyd R Turbo

I stand corrected, after a bunch of testing apparently the hole in the siphon line solves some issues with airlocking on startup on certain plumbing configs and doesn't cause any functionality issues.

But for a DIYer recommendation, I wouldn't go there yet

Floyd,

As I mentioned in the post above, several of us fiddled around with this, even inn the "herbie" debates. There are a few gotchas if you drill the top of the siphon u-tube.

The benefit is prevention of air-lock - But as you know there is no airlock issue with a properly configured standpipe (with out without a relief hole at sump level).

Gotcha #1: Quite simply, the hole needs to be kept clean. One more thing to maintain in a "set and forget" setup.

Gotcha #2: In the context of "one size fits all" the hole can create a vortex that draws air into the standpipe, generating unwanted bubbles and disrupting the rate of siphon.

Clearly these issues are system dependent but their presence presents a departure from the original design goals.

[BrianD]

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[Floyd R Turbo]

Originally Posted by BeanAnimal

Gotcha #1: Quite simply, the hole needs to be kept clean. One more thing to maintain in a "set and forget" setup.

Gotcha #2: In the context of "one size fits all" the hole can create a vortex that draws air into the standpipe, generating unwanted bubbles and disrupting the rate of siphon.

I'm with you on both of these, for the DIYer, setting up the standpipes properly from the get-go should mean that you don't have a need for the siphon line hole, and therefore having it when you don't need it could definitely cause issues, as you describe.

So that could be easily patched over with epoxy putty in the case where you plumbed it right

As for the hole on the OC line, admittedly I haven't set one up with this configuration myself, but I've built boxes and supplied parts to people who have, the one I used was a 2-part P trap I bought at the local BBS with a little cap on the bottom of the U section that you could unscrew a bit so that when it was covered up it would kick over, worked pretty well I thought (at least I was told it did)

So I said earlier (last week) that you shouldn't ever have a hole in the siphon line, and ideally this is still the case. So I guess my recommendation would be to plumb it right (i.e. read this thread) and then occlude the siphon line hole. As for the OC hole vs JG fitting + airline, the latter is probably the best way to do it, but the former IMO also can work very well - the OC hole, when in balanced operation, will be above the water line, so aside from salt creep, it should stay clear.

[BeanAnimal]

Correct, staying above the water line prevents it from getting covered up and makes it adjustable as well as prevents it from acting like a small amplifier for the water running down the OC.

The takeaway (as always) is that there are plenty of valid (safe and efficient) methods to drain water from an aquarium. There are plenty of changes or modifications that can be made to this (or any system) to enhance performance or simplify the design without sacrificing function. The goal here was to present a design that could be easily implemented and work on almost any system without changes or the need for trial and error.

The fact that almost every issue solved in this thread is solved by applying the basic design principles to a system that did not adhere to them in the first place is a fitting testament to the design.

Thanks (as always) to those if you who have devoted so much time to helping others understand this system and the design philosophy.

[saf1]

May have been asked a milling times in this thread already but is there a reasonable or recommended adjustable ball valve.

I must say I was a bit taken aback when I saw the variance of pricing. Figured maybe there is a go-to manufacture or brand that is durable for reefkeeping. Hoping to get plumbing a bit more solid this go around with no salt creep around bulk heads and fittings.

[SGT_York]

Any ball valve will work, but gate valves are just better for siphon lines, with a ball valve you cannot expect to get the siphon flow rate perfect as they are just too difficult to adjust, which could result in infrequent siphoning of the OC pipe, or a higher/ lower flow through the OC than could be accomplished with a gate.

IMO a gate valve is worth the extra few dollars.

[Nick James]

Hi,

I am setting up a 220g display. I have yet to drill for my bean animal overflow and I am glad I didn't because I may have come across a better way of doing it. My DT will be in one room, approximately 6 inches from the wall. The sump, everything else will be in the room behind. I originally was trying to determine the best placement of the holes, that would allow ease of access. This would have meant placement on one end of the tank or the other.

That is, until I saw this photo:



My question is, are there drawbacks/ dangers of having the pipe go straight back through the wall for approximately 12" prior to the drop?

The drains will all be 1.5". Thanks in advance