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Unread 04/23/2013, 10:03 AM   #126
Bilk
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Here's an interesting study on light and photosynthesis in corals. I'm not suggesting going to HD to buy $20 bulbs, but all the same, it is interesting, considering what's the general belief is regarding spectrum.

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Unread 04/23/2013, 10:43 AM   #127
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Interesting indeed! but many questions unanswered.


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Unread 04/23/2013, 11:57 AM   #128
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Originally Posted by Spyderturbo007 View Post
I disagree and have a completely opposite experience.

My Alk started around 7.9dKh and based on recommendations from this forum, I slowly raised my Alk from 7.9dKh to 9.89dKh over a period of about 45 days. In the same time period, I watched my corals bleach....all of them.

After letting my Alk drop back to where I hold it now (~7.5dKh) all of the corals color has returned. All other parameters such as Calcium, pH, Temperature, Nitrate, Phosphate, etc has remained the same.

So based on my experience, your statement cannot be applied as a blanked to all tanks.
Spyderturbo, what lights do you have? I have LEDs (Radions with TIR lenses) I found my corals like it when Alk 7.5-8.0 dKH.


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Unread 04/23/2013, 12:00 PM   #129
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Sorry bad pic. Taken with iPhone.


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Unread 04/23/2013, 01:35 PM   #130
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I have the AquaticLife 4 x 54w T5 HO fixtures. I've bought corals from people that say to "blast them with light" because there was no way my T5s could match their MH setup. I've brought the corals home and bleached them. So it had to be the Alkalinity because all I did was change that concentration.


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Unread 04/23/2013, 01:39 PM   #131
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I've had my alk at about 9dkh, and No3 between 2-5 (salifert) and PO4 at best .08 (Hanna ULR Phosphorus) and my lighting is really high for a 72 Gal (2 -250 W MH + about 300W of LEDs). Calc is between 410 and 420.

A lot of folks comment / say how colorful my corals are. Most of the theory on this thread is beyond my chemistry understanding, but interesting nonetheless.








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Unread 04/23/2013, 01:58 PM   #132
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The conclusion I've reached, with my limited knowledge and research, is that if you have detectable Nitrates and Phosphates you can run elevated Alkalinity. If on the other hand, you have an ULN system and Nitrates and Phosphates are undetectable, you have to run Alkalinity close to what you find in NSW.

But that's just my personal observation coupled with a tiny bit of personal experience.


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Unread 04/24/2013, 03:42 PM   #133
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What is the safest way to drop your alk levels without affecting other parameters?


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Unread 04/24/2013, 03:53 PM   #134
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What is the safest way to drop your alk levels without affecting other parameters?
just dont dose carbonates.


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Unread 04/25/2013, 06:22 AM   #135
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What is the safest way to drop your alk levels without affecting other parameters?
I let mine come down naturally as the tank consumed Alkalinity.


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Unread 04/25/2013, 06:55 AM   #136
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What is the safest way to drop your alk levels without affecting other parameters?

Depending on your sps coral load I'd just let them come down naturally. That ensures a slow steady drop.


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Unread 05/15/2013, 07:04 PM   #137
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Please, so that I am not highjacking this thread jump on my thread and please explain how I should remove the sandbed from my system. I do have one question can I keep a sandbed at all say 2". thanks
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Yes, but siphon the sand bed often and it will be beautiful and clean and wonderful to look at. (probably what you wanted to have when you put sand in there in the first place)
So then I should ask, since I'm still setting up: I want to have a fauna farm, as well as beautiful corals. My concern is that when I'm vacuuming out the sand I'm reducing the fauna as well as the detritus. Any answers how to avoid that? No sense in trying to build up a mass of 'pods just to flush them down the toilet.


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Unread 05/16/2013, 06:53 AM   #138
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So then I should ask, since I'm still setting up: I want to have a fauna farm, as well as beautiful corals. My concern is that when I'm vacuuming out the sand I'm reducing the fauna as well as the detritus. Any answers how to avoid that? No sense in trying to build up a mass of 'pods just to flush them down the toilet.
Set up two tanks. One swamp (AKA "fauna farm"), and one coral reef.

We wouldn't keep a hamster in a cage, and leave its waste on the bottom until it harbored massive quantities of bugs and worms, then expect the hamster to do well.

If we wouldn't keep a hamster under such foul conditions, why would we keep animals, from one of the cleanest environments on the planet, under such foul conditions and expect them to do well?

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Unread 05/16/2013, 12:10 PM   #139
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Current situation; I have a sandbed that is full of mulm (and fauna). The sandbed got redone 18 months ago during a tank upgrade, but I haven't vacuumed it at all since. I keep having undetectable phostphates and nitrates (salifert kits). SPS/LPS etc corals are looking good and growing fine (time for another tank upgrade). I'm not sure what this adds to the discussion, but I'm thinking it is time to vacuum out perhaps a third of the sandbed and replace it with fresh sand, letting the fauna reseed the vacuumed part. Since things are working fine and are stable, I'm hesitant to dink with it, but it seems in my case that a dirty sandbed isn't causing problems. --Lars


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Unread 05/17/2013, 03:55 PM   #140
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Set up two tanks. One swamp (AKA "fauna farm"), and one coral reef.

We wouldn't keep a hamster in a cage, and leave its waste on the bottom until it harbored massive quantities of bugs and worms, then expect the hamster to do well.

If we wouldn't keep a hamster under such foul conditions, why would we keep animals, from one of the cleanest environments on the planet, under such foul conditions and expect them to do well?

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Unread 05/19/2013, 09:34 AM   #141
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This is a very interesting thread. I thank all of you who contributed.

Here is a quick summary of my set up:

I have a 250lt (net volume) shallow reef tank in which I keep four large clams (approx. 5" each) along with SPS and LPS corals (no soft corals except a few mushrooms). I do not have sand bed in my display tank or sump. I rely mainly on cheato and water changes for nutrient export. I fluidise Rowa Phos and Seachem matrix carbon in two different reactors. I run a Bubble magus Nac 6a protein skimmer 24/7. I replace just over 10% water every week. Here is the list of fish I keep:

1 X yellow tang
1 X Genicanthus melanospilos
4 X Chalk bass (Serranus tartugarum)
1 X checkerboard wrasse (Halichoeres hortulanus)
1 X blue reef chromis (Chromis cyanea)
1 X Royal gramma (Gramma loreto)

I feed my fish 3 or 4 times a day heavily with flake food and frozen food.

NO3 levels are 0 (Salifert) and Phosphate levels are also 0 (Rowa Merck high sensitivity test kit).

Yesterday's test results were as follows: KH 9.3 dKH (Salifert), Ca 425 ppm (Salifert), Mg 1355 ppm (Salifert), Potassium (Salifert) 410 ppm. KH, Mg, Ca, K test kits have been calibrated with Fauna Marine Multi Referenz solution.

I use a 6 X 39W ATI Sunpower unit (4 X ATI Blue plus, 1 X ATI coral plus, 1 X KZ fiji purple and 1 X 6500K). PAR readings vary from 265 + mmol to 450+ mmol depending on the position of corals and clams on live rock. All my SPS corals and clams get over 350 + mmol PAR (These Apogee readings have not been adjusted for blue spectrum, hence the "+").

Now the coral colouration:

My SPS corals always exhibit pastel colours. Do not get me wrong. The colours look OK, but never vibrant and deep. When I raise the ATI unit, they start to look brown, whereas if I lower it they start to look pale. Soon after I place an acropora coral in my tank, it loses its original colour within a few days. I tried dosing trace elements, amino acids, iodine and potassium with no appreciable difference in the past. I always ended up having cyano. I no longer dose anything other than Kent Marine chaletaed iron once a week and Salifert Iodine once a month (only after testing though!).

Having read this thread, I have decided to lower the alkalinity levels to 8.4 dKH over the next 10 days initially. I will then reduce them to 8 dKH, and will report back any changes in coral colouration.

In the meantime, I would like to ask you if in your opinion very low nitrate levels may contribute to dull colouration too. I have just checked my log file dating back to 2008. The information I kept suggests that whereas alkalinity levels varied (between 8 dKH to 10.5 dKH), I always obtained trace nitrate readings with my Salifert test kit (between 0.1 ppm and 0.2 ppm). Despite feeding my fish very heavily, nutrient levels never increase in my tank. I believe that my clams are the biggest consumers of free nitrogen and phosphorous in the water column. Finally, although I have a lot bubble algae, I have no micro/macro algae growing on live rock. I get green/brown film algae on tank glass once every two days. Referring to the biomarkers mentioned in this thread, do you think I should not assume that I have a low nutrient reef tank due to large number of bubble algae?

Any advice would be appreciated...





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Unread 05/19/2013, 10:15 AM   #142
sirreal63
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This is a very interesting thread. I thank all of you who contributed.


In the meantime, I would like to ask you if in your opinion very low nitrate levels may contribute to dull colouration too. Referring to the biomarkers mentioned in this thread, do you think I should not assume that I have a low nutrient reef tank due to large number of bubble algae?

Any advice would be appreciated...

Just my opinion and experience but I believe nitrates and phosphates are important for coloration. Nitrates IME seem to have a larger impact than phosphates. If I keep the NO3 at 3-5 (sometimes as high as 7) I get the deep colors I want. I try and keep the PO4 at around .04, and I too have a lot of Valonia which I remove often but I can't get all of it so I live with it. I don't complain because I am getting the deep colors I want. I feed pretty heavy for the small fish load I have, and I believe that helps. I also feed a heavily puree'd seafood mix for the corals and other life in the tank. I truly believe too many people starve their corals and the tank in general.

It may be true that on the reef the PO4 and NO3 levels are extremely low, but the amount of food is massive and we just cannot replicate that in our tanks so having some extra nutrients that are not available on the reef helps with coral health, as long as it is not excessive. Unfortunately what is excessive in one tank may not be in another.


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Unread 05/19/2013, 11:23 AM   #143
DiscusHeckel
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Just my opinion and experience but I believe nitrates and phosphates are important for coloration. Nitrates IME seem to have a larger impact than phosphates. If I keep the NO3 at 3-5 (sometimes as high as 7) I get the deep colors I want.
Thanks.

I will first experiment with NSW level alkalinity levels. I am really curious to find out if it will help. If I do not get anywhere with it, then I will dose NaNO3 in a controlled way and raise NO3 levels to at least 0.2 ppm.

I do not want to change too many parameters in one go.

Has anyone else observed any correlation between NO3 levels and coral colouration?




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Unread 05/19/2013, 07:09 PM   #144
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Thanks.

I will first experiment with NSW level alkalinity levels. I am really curious to find out if it will help. If I do not get anywhere with it, then I will dose NaNO3 in a controlled way and raise NO3 levels to at least 0.2 ppm.

I do not want to change too many parameters in one go.

Has anyone else observed any correlation between NO3 levels and coral colouration?

I haven't had a NO3 or PO4 reading (Salifert) in years, but of course both are in the system and being used by various organisms.

Each tank has it's own quirks, but in my tank increased feeding frequency of a variety of foods along with lower Cal and Alk levels (~420 and 7.8, respectively) has been crucial to increasing the richness of coral coloration and growth.


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Unread 05/19/2013, 09:21 PM   #145
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Of note might be the visible growth on your glass in 2 days. This is pretty quick, and says that you might have higher ammonium/urea levels in the water (from the fish) before the water ever gets to a filtering mechanism. High feeding can do this, especially if in large single events; better is several smaller feeding events (or continuous) so the ammonium can be dispursed/filtered.

However, more ammonium hitting the corals would seem to me to cause darker color, not lighter.


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Unread 08/20/2013, 08:59 PM   #146
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any updates from people who made these changes to their tank?


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Unread 08/23/2013, 02:20 PM   #147
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If we wouldn't keep a hamster under such foul conditions, why would we keep animals, from one of the cleanest environments on the planet, under such foul conditions and expect them to do well?
There's only one difficulty with this analogy (though I certainly understand the logic). Coral reefs are not so nutrient poor as has been previously assumed. Yes, it is very true that the seawater around them is extremely low in dissolved, mineralized nutrients such as PO4 and NO3.

But overall, they are bathed in a nutrient bath of zooplankton and phytoplankton, which is not something that we can currently reproduce in our tanks. The extent of this wasn't recognized until very recently - coral reefs were originally thought to be "nutrient deserts".

So it would make sense that many have experienced better overall coral health by letting mineralized nutrients run much higher than typical ocean water values because corals are heterotrophic, and can potentially adapt from one source of nutrients to another to some degree.


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Unread 08/23/2013, 03:04 PM   #148
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i am not sure this is anything new. the differences between what nutrients are inorganic and what is organically bound does not seem to be explained to reefers and leads to a lot of the confusion about what is going on in our systems. we all seem to want to consider the nutrients all the same, yet when we test, we are only able to test for inorganic, missing an entire group of nutrients. when it is discussed that the reefs are "nutrient deserts" it is the inorganic nutrients that are in very short supply. the organically bound nutrients are available in the various planktonic media.

the problem comes from what is necessary to feed the organisms that can "create" this organically bound nutrients that the corals will feed on. the inorganic nutrients. do we really need to be fueling an entire food chain of biomass (which in itself indicates an increase in total nutrients of a system) when we can feed the corals we want to keep directly?

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Unread 08/24/2013, 07:24 AM   #149
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the problem comes from what is necessary to feed the organisms that can "create" this organically bound nutrients that the corals will feed on. the inorganic nutrients. do we really need to be fueling an entire food chain of biomass (which in itself indicates an increase in total nutrients of a system) when we can feed the corals we want to keep directly?
Personally, I think that's just a difference in philosophy, and most of us do both, whether intentionally or otherwise. In theory, products like Oyster Feast can completely substitute for the ocean's zooplanktonic food chain, but in practice, I have my doubts. If you've ever dove on a coral reef at night, the water is absolutely filled with all manner of planktonic life of all sizes and descriptions for many hours. I think that would be exceptionally difficult to reproduce adequately in a completely closed environment like a reef tank.

But that doesn't keep me from trying - I dose my tank after lights out every night with phytoplankton to encourage zooplanktonic life, and in theory that's the purpose of a refugium as well. But I can't deny that many people successfully keep what I call a "coral garden", where feeding of zooplanktonic substances is minimal and the water is kept scrupulously clean and free of inorganic nutrients. Many of these systems are spectacular to look at, and they grow coral very well.

But there are some of us that are just as interested in supporting more of the huge diversity of life on a reef, such as sponges, tunicates, foraminifera, crinoids, non-photosynthetic mollusks, corals and other animals, and the like. I don't know if that will ever be possible, but it seems like a laudable goal...


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Unread 08/24/2013, 09:54 AM   #150
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that is great for those corals and organisms that can live in that trophic environment. with what you are saying there will still need to have a large amount of inorganic nutrients available to feed the organisms that are "going to feed" the corals. some corals have adapted to not be exposed to that amount of available inorganic nutrients. they have evolved to live there for a reason.

all of those organisms you listed do not necessarily live on the same reef. we all want to think that all of the organisms we can acquire can all live together.most do not in the wild, so why should we think that we can do it in our reefs easily?

it is all about creating a system to the environment for the "must have" organism. it may be oligotrophic, it may be eutrophic, it may be mesotrophic.

i think our tanks are far from closed. they may be closed in respect to higher organisms, but they are not closed with respect to just about everything else, whether it is water, oxygen, nitrogen, carbon, bacteria, and even phosphates if a skimmer is employed. we may want to think of them as closed, but by the true definition they are not. if one would like to say closed with respect to higher organisms, that would make sense. matter is constantly being transferred into and out of the system through gas exchange, water evaporation, and even skimming.

G~


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