Chronic STN on Base of SPS Corals

AgentSPS · 04/24/2018, 11:09 AM

Folks-

Did a cursory search for threads and didn't find much so apologies if this is redundant. I think this issue is fairly pervasive so hopefully we can get some reliable feedback here to help out those affected.

In the last year, despite diligent efforts to maintain NSW levels (Triton testing), I have been experiencing chronic STN on the base of many of my SPS. Before the flow trolls chime in, I got plenty of flow. I have also heard people saying that there needs to be sufficient nitrate and phosphate. While very low levels, I have detectable levels of both. I get light algae growth on the glass over 2-3 days and very healthy growth of chaeto in fuge.

My Li levels are very high and rising but from all that I have read, Lithium is considered very low toxicity and its not really known what affects, if any, on coral.

Including results of April testing:

AgentSPS · 04/24/2018, 11:23 AM

I target salinity of around 1.024 and Alk of 10dkh. Alk seems to want to dip down to between 8-9 within 5-7 days of supplementing sodium bicarbonate. Pretty much doing on weekly basis. Turned up the Ca reactor recently to try and stabilize

Piper27 · 04/24/2018, 12:13 PM

Have you tried leaving alk at 8? Are you using a new alk source?

AgentSPS · 04/24/2018, 02:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Piper27

Have you tried leaving alk at 8? Are you using a new alk source?

Its my understanding that low alk can cause recession at the base whereas high burns tips. Given all the trouble I have had with RTN at the base, I figured higher alk might rule that out.

Would actually be easier for me to maintain at 8.

Curious what your thinking is around this.

jda · 04/24/2018, 02:59 PM

Are we talking colonies or frags?

Look lighting and shadowing. Do you have a light that is chronically prone to shadowing issues?

Lithium is no issue. It is likely from your salt mix. I would not worry about it.

AgentSPS · 04/24/2018, 03:24 PM

Mostly colonies but there have been frags too. Frags seemed to be more STN but maybe just because there is not as much tissue to RTN away...if that makes any sense.

Shadowing not an issue...the recession is fairly evenly distributed over lit and shaded

jda · 04/24/2018, 03:29 PM

It is mostly likely a light issue. The death does not just always happen in the dark areas.

I keep my nitrate around .1 and phosphate around .005 to .01 and my acropora thrive - lower N and P are not your issue... this does not cause death.

Piper27 · 04/25/2018, 01:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AgentSPS

Its my understanding that low alk can cause recession at the base whereas high burns tips. Given all the trouble I have had with RTN at the base, I figured higher alk might rule that out.

Would actually be easier for me to maintain at 8.

Curious what your thinking is around this.

I was wondering where you have normally kept you alk at? Always high? Some tanks just do well on the low end and the rules don't always apply to every tank in the same way.
It would be very helpful to see pictures, even if it looks like standard tissue recession one of us might notice something.
What lights are you using? I should have asked this first and I could guess since jda chimed in that its leds?

AgentSPS · 04/25/2018, 03:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Piper27

I was wondering where you have normally kept you alk at? Always high? Some tanks just do well on the low end and the rules don't always apply to every tank in the same way.
It would be very helpful to see pictures, even if it looks like standard tissue recession one of us might notice something.
What lights are you using? I should have asked this first and I could guess since jda chimed in that its leds?

Yeah tried to keep it around 10 for nearly a year now. I will see if I can capture some photos.

I am using Radions. I tried one of their new diffusers on my LPS tank but doesnt seem to be much different to me other than less noticeable shimmering.

DesertReefT4r · 04/26/2018, 12:05 AM

Keep you alk at 8 imo thats perfect. Its a bonus if its easy to maintain that level. Pics help a lot. Could be many things: constant alk swings from dosing to keep it high, flow which all you said was plenty, lighting too little or too much or constant changing of color and intensity ie "playing" with the light, shadowing, several water quality issues, pests like red bugs aefw nudis and black bugs. Please share more info tank size, flow, filtration, full water test, what gen Radions how many how high over the tank, bioload/livestock, dry roxk or live rock, how old is the tank?

AgentSPS · 04/26/2018, 10:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DesertReefT4r

Keep you alk at 8 imo thats perfect. Its a bonus if its easy to maintain that level. Pics help a lot. Could be many things: constant alk swings from dosing to keep it high, flow which all you said was plenty, lighting too little or too much or constant changing of color and intensity ie "playing" with the light, shadowing, several water quality issues, pests like red bugs aefw nudis and black bugs. Please share more info tank size, flow, filtration, full water test, what gen Radions how many how high over the tank, bioload/livestock, dry roxk or live rock, how old is the tank?

I will stop adjusting Alk and leave it at 8dkh

Tank:
300 gal 72x40x24

Flow:

2 x MP60
1 x Tunze 6105
1 x Tunze 6055

Lighting:

3 x Radion XR30 (gen 3 I believe)
1 x Radion XR15 (gen 4)

Set it some time ago and don't meddle
Most of the SPS are between 12-14" from surface with lights maybe 18" above surface for spread coverage

Filtration:

Skims Leopard Cone Skimmer w/ DC pump (I believe rated for 700+ gals)
30 gal fuge to brim with chaeto
GFO (~10 oz) fluidized
Perigen (~500 ml) fluidized

Stock:

Combination of live rock and dried branch (formerly live from prev system) Maybe 150-200lbs?
Tank has been up for about 4 years now
Only sand is a 14" x 9" x 4" deep wrasse sleeping quarters
Tank is moderately stocked with fish load
15-20 SPS colonies and 10 frags

AgentSPS · 04/26/2018, 10:55 AM

Piper27 · 04/26/2018, 01:04 PM

How do you get away with a 40 inch wide tank and 3.5 led lights? Do you have all the rocks in the middle with lots of swim room? This is off topic but I am just curious. Love the dimensions of the tank.

AgentSPS · 04/26/2018, 02:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Piper27

How do you get away with a 40 inch wide tank and 3.5 led lights? Do you have all the rocks in the middle with lots of swim room? This is off topic but I am just curious. Love the dimensions of the tank.

Yes so the rock work runs mostly along the rear of the tank with the ends sweeping towards the front. Think crescent shape if viewed from the top. Lots of open swim room in the front of the tank. There is good overlap of the lighting at the height I run the lights. Very little shading and none where it matters.

DesertReefT4r · 04/26/2018, 08:38 PM

Yeah you dont have near enough light for that tank size and the are mounted pretty high up. I would have about 6 XR30 Pros on a tank that long wide and deep at about 8-10" off the water. Having that high does increase spread/coverage but PAR dropps off very quickly. I bet you have less than 150 PAR reaching most of your sps coral. Flow looks decent imo at least by you powerhead list. Tank is mature so that's a plus. I would concentrate on just keeping water parameters stable, and adding more light. Dont chase numbers so much just stable and balanced. We all know what water parameters are needed for reef tanks so I wont post that.

AgentSPS · 04/26/2018, 09:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DesertReefT4r

Yeah you dont have near enough light for that tank size and the are mounted pretty high up. I would have about 6 XR30 Pros on a tank that long wide and deep at about 8-10" off the water. Having that high does increase spread/coverage but PAR dropps off very quickly. I bet you have less than 150 PAR reaching most of your sps coral. Flow looks decent imo at least by you powerhead list. Tank is mature so that's a plus. I would concentrate on just keeping water parameters stable, and adding more light. Dont chase numbers so much just stable and balanced. We all know what water parameters are needed for reef tanks so I wont post that.

Measured tonight. Lights are 13” off water and coral 7” under water line.

scottbeyer101 · 04/27/2018, 02:33 PM

I second the increased lighting. I have 1/2 your volume and nearly as much light (3 X Hydra 26) 9" off water line. I borrowed LFS's par meter and was surprised how little PAR was reaching even the middle depths.

As you mentioned the STN at the base of the acros does raise the question of AEFWs and/or red/black bugs. Wrasses are said to manage those buggers pretty well, but it is worth inspecting closely. You'll have to pull an affected frag or colony out of the tank and view under light and powerful magnifying glass to be sure. Hopefully not your problem, but if it is there is much well written advice on next steps.

Beautiful tank btw. Good luck.

AgentSPS · 04/27/2018, 03:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by scottbeyer101

I second the increased lighting. I have 1/2 your volume and nearly as much light (3 X Hydra 26) 9" off water line. I borrowed LFS's par meter and was surprised how little PAR was reaching even the middle depths.

As you mentioned the STN at the base of the acros does raise the question of AEFWs and/or red/black bugs. Wrasses are said to manage those buggers pretty well, but it is worth inspecting closely. You'll have to pull an affected frag or colony out of the tank and view under light and powerful magnifying glass to be sure. Hopefully not your problem, but if it is there is much well written advice on next steps.

Beautiful tank btw. Good luck.

Def not AEFW or red/black bugs. I have had experience with both in prev tank and this has no resemblance.

Light is plausible. I just have really good coloration which made me think it was not lighting. I will try and locate a par meter to test

robbous · 04/28/2018, 03:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jda

It is mostly likely a light issue. The death does not just always happen in the dark areas.

I keep my nitrate around .1 and phosphate around .005 to .01 and my acropora thrive - lower N and P are not your issue... this does not cause death.

I'd like to know how you keep them at these levels? When they rise above these limits do you change out the media? And when changing out the media how do you get it back to these exact same levels?

jda · 04/28/2018, 08:28 AM

I do not use any media.

2-3 inches of sand for denitrification. Lots of real phosphate-free live rock from the pacific for phosphate swapping/buffering (along with the sand). Water changes, large skimmers and chaeto/dragon[flame/tongue] fuge for export. ...and about a year if patience for all of this to start working correctly. My tank handles this naturally, on it's own. I set up every tank this way and it just works. I just started one 4 months ago...and working through the ugly phases right now, but I will let the tank sort this out and I will not intervene with any media... the N needs to stay a bit high so that anoxic bacteria can grow to consume it...and the P needs to stay a bit high so that the fuge continues to grow as the snails and fish take care of the algae in the display. I just started to get coralline everywhere, so this is a good step.

Using dry rock will not make this possible for a long time (if ever) since it is bound full of phosphate already, is not always porous and usually bound with caked organics. Using media will inhibit the tank from doing this on it's own. Large, good skimmers in large sumps can really help too... but the current trend is on pre-made sumps with small chambers and small skimmers with pumps in them where even a 20 year old EuroReef will produce more than one of these.

Basic Berlin with good maintenance gives people all that they need to run a successful tank, but I do get that patience is hard to come by anymore and BRS cannot make a video about running a tank with stuff that they do not really sell.

Twenty years ago, the only high nutrient tanks were those that were neglected... and there plenty of them. Hobbyists who cared had great tanks, but most did not get cute and try and not change water or deviate from what works. High nutrient tanks that had caring owners only started to pop up when bare bottom got big, then GFO and then dry rock. This is a relatively new phenonomen in reef keeping.

rvareef · 04/29/2018, 02:22 PM

posts some pics of the corals not an across the room tank shot with your feet in it lol
I would put another 3 (.5)'s in between the full radions and stop dosing/turn off the calcium reactor till you start seeing new growth

AgentSPS · 04/29/2018, 02:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rvareef

posts some pics of the corals not an across the room tank shot with your feet in it lol
I would put another 3 (.5)'s in between the full radions and stop dosing/turn off the calcium reactor till you start seeing new growth

I got decent growth....fear turning off reactor will just result in steady decline in Alk and CA. My levels are in NSW range now....that’s the goal

AgentSPS · 04/29/2018, 02:58 PM

Anyone have recommendation for decent low priced image hosting site? Photo bucket ripoff now.

AgentSPS · 04/29/2018, 03:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jda

I do not use any media.

2-3 inches of sand for denitrification. Lots of real phosphate-free live rock from the pacific for phosphate swapping/buffering (along with the sand). Water changes, large skimmers and chaeto/dragon[flame/tongue] fuge for export. ...and about a year if patience for all of this to start working correctly. My tank handles this naturally, on it's own. I set up every tank this way and it just works. I just started one 4 months ago...and working through the ugly phases right now, but I will let the tank sort this out and I will not intervene with any media... the N needs to stay a bit high so that anoxic bacteria can grow to consume it...and the P needs to stay a bit high so that the fuge continues to grow as the snails and fish take care of the algae in the display. I just started to get coralline everywhere, so this is a good step.

Using dry rock will not make this possible for a long time (if ever) since it is bound full of phosphate already, is not always porous and usually bound with caked organics. Using media will inhibit the tank from doing this on it's own. Large, good skimmers in large sumps can really help too... but the current trend is on pre-made sumps with small chambers and small skimmers with pumps in them where even a 20 year old EuroReef will produce more than one of these.

Basic Berlin with good maintenance gives people all that they need to run a successful tank, but I do get that patience is hard to come by anymore and BRS cannot make a video about running a tank with stuff that they do not really sell.

Twenty years ago, the only high nutrient tanks were those that were neglected... and there plenty of them. Hobbyists who cared had great tanks, but most did not get cute and try and not change water or deviate from what works. High nutrient tanks that had caring owners only started to pop up when bare bottom got big, then GFO and then dry rock. This is a relatively new phenonomen in reef keeping.

I been at this for the better part of 25 years. I subscribe to much of what you prescribe but some stuff you present as fact or proven, I take issue with. I have run both true Berlin with less long term success than bare bottom with minimal samdbed. I’m not saying it can’t be done with great success and not disputing yours but I worry about this folks who are searching for answers and employ methods because someone posts strong authoritative views on their method.

But that said, I agree with the spirit of what you articulate...simplicity, patience, and and time tested methods (efficient skimming and generous algae nutrient export ).

fishguy597 · 04/30/2018, 09:14 PM

I watch the YouTube videos with Mike paletta when ever they come out. In one of his videos I remember him talking about base recession of mature colonies. One of the things he talks about is adding iodine to his tank one to two times a week. He believes it helps prevent this from happening. He does go on to mention that a lot of old school refers do this as well. Then he also states that he doesn't know if it does anything but that his corals are strong and healthy. So he just keeps doing it. I just find it interesting seeing how he doesn't add much as far as additives.
Thoughts?

04/26/2018, 12:05 AM	#10
DesertReefT4r Registered Member Join Date: Sep 2015 Location: Mesa Az Posts: 771	Keep you alk at 8 imo thats perfect. Its a bonus if its easy to maintain that level. Pics help a lot. Could be many things: constant alk swings from dosing to keep it high, flow which all you said was plenty, lighting too little or too much or constant changing of color and intensity ie "playing" with the light, shadowing, several water quality issues, pests like red bugs aefw nudis and black bugs. Please share more info tank size, flow, filtration, full water test, what gen Radions how many how high over the tank, bioload/livestock, dry roxk or live rock, how old is the tank? __________________ Tank history 29g tropical ,55g cichlid tank, 20H softy reef, 29g mixed reef, 20H brackish goby & puffer tank, 55g mixed reef, 6g Nanocube softy lps reef, 40B sps reef, 75g sps reef, 75g sps reef in bu Current Tank Info: 75g sps reef build in the works.

04/26/2018, 08:38 PM	#15
DesertReefT4r Registered Member Join Date: Sep 2015 Location: Mesa Az Posts: 771	Yeah you dont have near enough light for that tank size and the are mounted pretty high up. I would have about 6 XR30 Pros on a tank that long wide and deep at about 8-10" off the water. Having that high does increase spread/coverage but PAR dropps off very quickly. I bet you have less than 150 PAR reaching most of your sps coral. Flow looks decent imo at least by you powerhead list. Tank is mature so that's a plus. I would concentrate on just keeping water parameters stable, and adding more light. Dont chase numbers so much just stable and balanced. We all know what water parameters are needed for reef tanks so I wont post that. __________________ Tank history 29g tropical ,55g cichlid tank, 20H softy reef, 29g mixed reef, 20H brackish goby & puffer tank, 55g mixed reef, 6g Nanocube softy lps reef, 40B sps reef, 75g sps reef, 75g sps reef in bu Current Tank Info: 75g sps reef build in the works.

04/27/2018, 02:33 PM	#17
scottbeyer101 Registered Member Join Date: Jun 2015 Location: 06840 Posts: 23	I second the increased lighting. I have 1/2 your volume and nearly as much light (3 X Hydra 26) 9" off water line. I borrowed LFS's par meter and was surprised how little PAR was reaching even the middle depths. As you mentioned the STN at the base of the acros does raise the question of AEFWs and/or red/black bugs. Wrasses are said to manage those buggers pretty well, but it is worth inspecting closely. You'll have to pull an affected frag or colony out of the tank and view under light and powerful magnifying glass to be sure. Hopefully not your problem, but if it is there is much well written advice on next steps. Beautiful tank btw. Good luck. __________________ __________________________________________________________________________ Mixed Reef RSR 525XL, APEX, 3 X Hydra 26, Sicce SDC 9 return, MP 40, Maxspect

04/24/2018, 11:23 AM	#2
AgentSPS Registered Member Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Bay Area CA Posts: 1,940	I target salinity of around 1.024 and Alk of 10dkh. Alk seems to want to dip down to between 8-9 within 5-7 days of supplementing sodium bicarbonate. Pretty much doing on weekly basis. Turned up the Ca reactor recently to try and stabilize

04/24/2018, 12:13 PM	#3
Piper27 I love bengals Join Date: Feb 2011 Location: Manassas Virginia Posts: 2,512	Have you tried leaving alk at 8? Are you using a new alk source?

04/24/2018, 02:59 PM	#5
jda Dogmatic Dinosaur Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Boulder, CO Posts: 6,256	Are we talking colonies or frags? Look lighting and shadowing. Do you have a light that is chronically prone to shadowing issues? Lithium is no issue. It is likely from your salt mix. I would not worry about it.

04/24/2018, 03:24 PM	#6
AgentSPS Registered Member Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Bay Area CA Posts: 1,940	Mostly colonies but there have been frags too. Frags seemed to be more STN but maybe just because there is not as much tissue to RTN away...if that makes any sense. Shadowing not an issue...the recession is fairly evenly distributed over lit and shaded

04/24/2018, 03:29 PM	#7
jda Dogmatic Dinosaur Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Boulder, CO Posts: 6,256	It is mostly likely a light issue. The death does not just always happen in the dark areas. I keep my nitrate around .1 and phosphate around .005 to .01 and my acropora thrive - lower N and P are not your issue... this does not cause death.

04/26/2018, 01:04 PM	#13
Piper27 I love bengals Join Date: Feb 2011 Location: Manassas Virginia Posts: 2,512	How do you get away with a 40 inch wide tank and 3.5 led lights? Do you have all the rocks in the middle with lots of swim room? This is off topic but I am just curious. Love the dimensions of the tank.

04/28/2018, 08:28 AM	#20
jda Dogmatic Dinosaur Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Boulder, CO Posts: 6,256	I do not use any media. 2-3 inches of sand for denitrification. Lots of real phosphate-free live rock from the pacific for phosphate swapping/buffering (along with the sand). Water changes, large skimmers and chaeto/dragon[flame/tongue] fuge for export. ...and about a year if patience for all of this to start working correctly. My tank handles this naturally, on it's own. I set up every tank this way and it just works. I just started one 4 months ago...and working through the ugly phases right now, but I will let the tank sort this out and I will not intervene with any media... the N needs to stay a bit high so that anoxic bacteria can grow to consume it...and the P needs to stay a bit high so that the fuge continues to grow as the snails and fish take care of the algae in the display. I just started to get coralline everywhere, so this is a good step. Using dry rock will not make this possible for a long time (if ever) since it is bound full of phosphate already, is not always porous and usually bound with caked organics. Using media will inhibit the tank from doing this on it's own. Large, good skimmers in large sumps can really help too... but the current trend is on pre-made sumps with small chambers and small skimmers with pumps in them where even a 20 year old EuroReef will produce more than one of these. Basic Berlin with good maintenance gives people all that they need to run a successful tank, but I do get that patience is hard to come by anymore and BRS cannot make a video about running a tank with stuff that they do not really sell. Twenty years ago, the only high nutrient tanks were those that were neglected... and there plenty of them. Hobbyists who cared had great tanks, but most did not get cute and try and not change water or deviate from what works. High nutrient tanks that had caring owners only started to pop up when bare bottom got big, then GFO and then dry rock. This is a relatively new phenonomen in reef keeping.

04/29/2018, 02:22 PM	#21
rvareef In Memoriam Join Date: Jun 2014 Posts: 664	posts some pics of the corals not an across the room tank shot with your feet in it lol I would put another 3 (.5)'s in between the full radions and stop dosing/turn off the calcium reactor till you start seeing new growth

04/29/2018, 02:58 PM	#23
AgentSPS Registered Member Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Bay Area CA Posts: 1,940	Anyone have recommendation for decent low priced image hosting site? Photo bucket ripoff now.

04/30/2018, 09:14 PM	#25
fishguy597 Registered Member Join Date: Aug 2009 Location: Minooka Il Posts: 912	I watch the YouTube videos with Mike paletta when ever they come out. In one of his videos I remember him talking about base recession of mature colonies. One of the things he talks about is adding iodine to his tank one to two times a week. He believes it helps prevent this from happening. He does go on to mention that a lot of old school refers do this as well. Then he also states that he doesn't know if it does anything but that his corals are strong and healthy. So he just keeps doing it. I just find it interesting seeing how he doesn't add much as far as additives. Thoughts?