I learned about Zoanthid toxin the hard way......

[steveoutlaw]

Originally posted by kryppy
I would think the DoD, not FDA would want one...

Funny thing is, in doing research on zoanthids I found that back in the day warriors would smear their spear heads and arrow heads on these things to get them to release the toxin. One stick and the enemy dies!

The FDA wants to examine the polyps to determine how many and what types of toxins are in them. Now, I don't think they are going to ban anything, but I I'm glad they are analyzing them so we know exactly what we are dealing with. And look at the bright side, it's the ugly, uncontrollable polyps that seem to pack the punch.....I wouldn't mind those being banned!!

[A.T.T.R]

palythoa coated bullets... any flesh wound kills!!!

palythoa coated bombs ... BECAUSE WE CAN!

[mfp4073]

Originally posted by steveoutlaw
Funny thing is, in doing research on zoanthids I found that back in the day warriors would smear their spear heads and arrow heads on these things to get them to release the toxin. One stick and the enemy dies!

I wonder what their propogation tanks looked like, what they were dosing with and if they used aragonite or crushed coral with more sucess!

[puffergirl]

That's sad, really. People need to be careful of what they do with toxic corals, but even worse is that rather than find the corals a new tank to grow in he decided the best idea would be to boil them off the rocks. We all have environmental responsibilities in this hobby, and it bothers me to hear about anyone purposefully killing their aquarium inhabitants. We all know that the things we put in our tanks are going to grow... if you can't handle the rate at which something grows, don't buy it... or hook up with your local reef club who will always be there to take frags of your zoanthids and xenia and whatever else grows like a week in your tank. There's always a better solution.

[Mazzy]

Thanks for making that point puffergirl. I read this whole long thread and never once even thought of it from that regard - and I actually consider myself a friend of the environment.
I guess when you think about the fact that, especially in the salt water hobby, these animals are forcibly plucked from their free lives and made to live in glass cells for our pleasure, probably in their world humans "have it coming to them".

Anyway, I agree with you that we have a responsibility to our pets, whether they were intentional purchases, or unintentional hitchhikers.

[sedgro]

Geeez, come on - what about the Aptasia we kill? The Bryopsis you remove from the rocks, the brown algae you scrape off the glass? These aren't desirable but most of us have no qualms about removing them. Would you feel the same if he had dumped boiling water on a rock covered with aptasia anemones? Or would you have taken it off his hands? So if it is something desirable/ornamental we have a responsibility towards it but if it is a "pest" we don't? Give the guy a break.

[puffergirl]

LMAO that was kind of extreme. For the record I'm not trying to give the guy a hard time, just highlighting the fact that people need to do a little research and be aware of what they are doing. Due diligence and all. It's kind of hard to get into this hobby & never read or be told that some of the stuff we're dealing with is toxic/poisonous/venomous.

[Tang Salad]

Can I tell you guys a secret?

when I learned zoas/palys were toxic, I kinda started liking them even more.

The very idea that they could kill a person demands of us Simian Neptunophiles a little more respect than we normally show. Just think what we do to their cousins, the Aptasia...

Isn't it just tit for tat?

[RichConley]

Originally posted by flfirefighter13
IM not trying to downplay toxins at all here but think it merits mentioning that inhaleing ANY steam is potentially bad for the lungs...... Steam is hot and burns are bad especially in the lungs and or throat.

Good luck and hope you get better soon, my wife struggles with adult onset asthma, it can be handled but it sure seems to be a hassle.

Exactly. You could pour boiling water on pretty much anything, and enhale the steam and have a reaction. Honestly, it could just be vaporized zoo flesh bothering the lungs, and not a toxin at all. The tissue in your lungs is extremely sensitive to things like this.

It could be the palytoxin, but it could also not be. Theres plenty of things living on rocks that could have bothered you. Theres also the possibility that just the hot, foreign matter in your lungs set you off.


Just be careful people, no reason to panic.

[CrystalAZ]

Originally posted by puffergirl
That's sad, really. People need to be careful of what they do with toxic corals, but even worse is that rather than find the corals a new tank to grow in he decided the best idea would be to boil them off the rocks. We all have environmental responsibilities in this hobby, and it bothers me to hear about anyone purposefully killing their aquarium inhabitants. We all know that the things we put in our tanks are going to grow... if you can't handle the rate at which something grows, don't buy it... or hook up with your local reef club who will always be there to take frags of your zoanthids and xenia and whatever else grows like a week in your tank. There's always a better solution.

Thank you for saying what I was going to say.

There is a difference between aiptasia, which NOBODY wants, and zos, which MANY people want. If a newbie gets your castoff green zos, that's one less coral bought at a store and one less coral imported from somewhere else. There is ALWAYS someone who will take castoff corals, so why kill them?

And no, I would feel no different if someone dumped boiling water on a rock to kill an aiptasia. There are other ways to kill aiptasia than to kill every animal that lives in a rock just to get at an aiptasia.

I am really sorry for the OP's medical issue and hope he feels better.

Crystal

[Chooch1]

Thanks for the information and reminder. I got squirted by Zoanthid juice in the eye as I was trying to remove them from live rock and got a nasty eye infection that really hurt. We all forget that some of the critters we keep can be dangerous.

[Friends75helper]

They shoot juice? O man. What a crazy coral..

[hllywd]

hmmmm.... I'm not going to call somebody a plagiarist but this account is remarkably similar to the "strange side note" Sprung note in the last paragraph of his article;

A word of caution about Zoanthids:
I must mention the fact that zoanthids are quite toxic. They produce a substance known as palytoxin (Mebs, 1989) that is one of the most toxic naturally occurring poisons known. This substance was first discovered associated with Palythoa spp. in Hawaii, but has since been found in Zoanthus as well (Fosså and Nilsen, 1998). Palytoxin is apparently produced by bacteria that live in association with zoanthids. A fascinating account about the discovery of palytoxin can be found online on the Wet Web Media site, see reference given.

A strange side note to this is the anecdotal observation I reported in my column Reef Notes in FAMA magazine that this toxin or another one associated with zoanthids may be able to be aerosolized. An aquarist trying to rid his live rocks of a species of Protopalythoa decided to remove the rocks and spray boiling water on them to kill them. A friend of his contacted me after the aquarist was in the hospital and in serious condition, the doctors unable to determine what had caused a serious reaction and respiratory distress. I pointed out the possibility of a palytoxin reaction, but was skeptical about the aerosol or "toxic fumes" that the aquarist believed made him become ill suddenly. The aquarist later recovered, but slowly. In any case, one should be extremely careful when handling zoanthids, Protopalythoa and Palythoa spp., in particular. Rinse your hands thoroughly with soap and water immediately after contacting them.

I find it interesting that a link to the article is offered but no mention the same thing happend to somebody else. Wouldn't this make the weird news on CNN? Shouldn't the CPSC get involved since LFSs are peddling a dangerous product?

There is another thread on RC chock full of anecdotal stories about dead dogs and the like along with bleeding heart offered sympathies and so on.

In that thread there is nothing concrete just like here, it cites the wet web media story (Hawaiian myth about the guy with the shark head on his back that kills the locals)as well as some other nondescript links to dubious anecdotal information. There is little to no good information unless you're the person that believes everything they read or hear, other than to say palytoxin is indeed real. I have contended and still do that it’s not common or cannot be transmitted easily or there would be a lot of 16 year olds dieing on the job at the LFSs of the world from bagging these things up for eager customers.

Just to be clear, I don't doubt the existance of palytoxin, I do doubt, at least without some compelling evidence, that it is common in animals ordinarilly available to the aqarium trade. I'd be much more worried about the chemicals on my lawn, in my garage, or even the treated lumber on my deck, in the shed or the kids play house.....

Tim

[hllywd]

Originally posted by flfirefighter13
IM not trying to downplay toxins at all here but think it merits mentioning that inhaleing ANY steam is potentially bad for the lungs...... Steam is hot and burns are bad especially in the lungs and or throat.

Good luck and hope you get better soon, my wife struggles with adult onset asthma, it can be handled but it sure seems to be a hassle.

Amen!!! (not the pagan kind)

[vessxpress1]

It's been stated before that not all zoanthids contain palytoxin. I've read that most zoos in the hobby do not contain the toxin. Because I don't know which ones do or don't, I still treat them as being poisonous whether they are or not. I don't have the lab to test them.

I read somewhere that the uglier zoanthids tend to have the toxin. Which is exactly what this guy was trying to get rid of...some ugly zoos off his rocks. It is possible that both sides are correct here.

[steveoutlaw]

Well the FDA tested the zoanthids and found that they DID contain the palytoxin. There is no way for sure to tell if that is actually what made me sick but it seems to be a logical explanation. Whatever the case, hopefully this will bring some awareness to just how dangerous some of this stuff can be......and nobody will pull a bone head move and boil zoos off their rock like I did.

[mfp4073]

you know. I read a lot of stuff on here that is opinion, but not qualified and quantified fact. I am really glad you posted info on the outcome of the tests.

[RedSonja]

Originally posted by sedgro
Would you feel the same if he had dumped boiling water on a rock covered with aptasia anemones? Or would you have taken it off his hands?

I would have taken it off his hands. I have reimbursed for shipping for people to do so. So there is usually someone who will take your "pests" if you know where to find them.

-Sonja

[RedSonja]

Originally posted by CrystalAZ


There is a difference between aiptasia, which NOBODY wants, and zos, which MANY people want.

Crystal

I much prefer Zoas over Aiptasia, yes. But there are at least a few lunatics in the world that want Aiptasia, such as myself.

-Sonja

[hllywd]

Originally posted by steveoutlaw
Well the FDA tested the zoanthids and found that they DID contain the palytoxin. There is no way for sure to tell if that is actually what made me sick but it seems to be a logical explanation. Whatever the case, hopefully this will bring some awareness to just how dangerous some of this stuff can be......and nobody will pull a bone head move and boil zoos off their rock like I did.

I don't suppose you could post that FDA report on here could you? Or a web adress where we could read it ? I'm curious what the FDA's interest could be in an isolated nondescript medical issue.

Tim

[Poseidon]

Any updates on this? How are you feeling a year later?

[edandsandy]

How are after 2 years?

[hllywd]

Maybe its worse than I thought...

[peskyfish]

Originally Posted by hllywd

Maybe its worse than I thought...

Man, I sure hope not

[edandsandy]

We hope all is well!