Behind the scenes of a large wholesaler

[Caesra]

Originally Posted by JamOne1

I hope wholesalers and collectors have websites like this to help each other, because they have as much room for improvement as we do.

Not likely, I have often thought of a breeder coop....not info site...breeder 'collection' coop. Would do many good things

[doctorgori]

I've been to a few wholesalers...the one described may be a lil extreme, but before I bash them I'm reliving my hundreds if not thousands of fish sales personally done by myself and wonder what has happened to all the fish I've personally bought...
..If I was to be 100% honest I'd bet I only pass on (or trade up) 50% and eventually kill another 50% one way or another

not justifying the horrible handling, just saying this is a "end of the road" deal for every fish removed from the wild...

seems us hobbyist got our work cut out for us to captive breed what we can

BTW, not to go off topic, but the entire ocean is horribly overfished...the grocery stores/fish markets of today are a sorry state compared to what you could buy in the 70's (back then tiliapia was a aquarium fish) ..... today: tilipia, swai & farm raised salom, tommorow: "Soylent green" he he

[James77]

Originally Posted by JMcAz7

Thanks for trolling my response, BTW.

Chrissreef was not trolling your thread, merely making a post in it. Just becuase someone makes a differing point of view does not make them a troll. He was just pointing out a fact.

[808Rob]

SUPPORT AQUACULTURE!!!
Isn't that what we're trying to do with our tanks???

[noobtothereef]

On the sad part, the wild collection, import, wholsale and to the retailer keeps the prices cheap, if for some reason wild collection was banned, our hobby would get unafordable, prices would skyrocket because aquaculturing and captive breeding couldnt keep up with the demand, we need to change this quickly, if you look at cites quotas they have been increasing rapidly over the years, eventually species will be wiped out.

And for the wholesalers, it would cost them more money in the long run trying to keep a higher percentage of livestock alive than just doing what they are doing now, remember wholesalers are big business and the bottom line is all that matters.

[victornator333]

Reading all of these posts give me different perspectives towards our hobby....but in the end we are all the problem. It seems that whether the argument is that we should..."buy captive bred when available" or "do research before" or "avoid the cheap wholesalers", and so on and so forth are all doing the same thing....defending themselves or justifying their actions. of course we all love reefkeeping but at the same time, we all feel guilty to some extent of what we are doing to the environment as a hobbyist population. i think the fact of the matter is that the humans are fascinated by the ocean and sadly, to the detriment of the ocean, its become a commodity for some people. now whether that is wrong or not is up to you. From the people who do the dirty work in collecting, the wholesalers, the LFS, even the people who run these forums, all make money from the hobby. are they bad people for trying to make a living? as humans, anything we think we can take from our surroundings and use it to benefit us will PROBABLY BE TAKEN AND USED. its just the way we are and how we operate as a species. is a cattle herder at fault for bringing life to thousands of heads of cattle just so that they will meet their ultimate doom at the slaughterhouse? so with that in mind, should all us beef-eating americans purchase meat from "cattle friendly" slaughterhouses should they exist? I guess all im saying is that if you go into this hobby, you should always understand that to some extent you are putting a strain to the environment regardless of how "careful" you might be. its not fair to put the blame on others when we all factor into the equation.

Thank you, i will now step off my soap box

[GreshamH]

Originally Posted by organism

Wow, that's definitely not your typical wholesaler. The live arrival rate at wholesalers is over 80%, not 50%. The reason you're seeing 50% at that one is probably a combination of their cut rate suppliers and, more importantly, the fact that the corals passed through LA on their way to Chicago, adding an extra 8 or so hours onto their already extremely long commute.

All of the ones I've seen in LA drip acclimate the fish in species specific containers for about 30 or so minutes before putting them in their systems. Medications keep the subsequent die off low at 10%ish, but some fish have higher DOA's and others have less than 5% overall.

I agree 100% that hobbyists should only buy and demand captive raised fish from LFS if those species are available, it would make a huge change in the hobby siunce even an overall 70% death rate is way too high imo, so don't get me wrong that I'm not on the same page as you. Thing is though, you basically went backstage at the butcher shop to see the slaughterhouse, it may be a bit unsightly to visitors, and it might have been a really crappy slaughterhouse, but if you like meat, well, for the most part that's how it gets on your plate.

I've been to wholesalers at every port of entry in the US. I have never seen one as bad as he states that one was (and I know just who he is talking about and I know their exporters...leaving it at that ). The outfit I spent 5 years at had a 1 - 3% DOA/DAA combined.

The poster also doesn't know details beyond what was posted it appears... like did that shipment get diverted in Singapore on its way from PI? I've seen countless shipments that instead of 24 - 48 hours, hitting 72+. Was it super hot on the tarmac in the export country? Did Customs of USF7WS sit on the invoice? So many factors that can go into a poor shipment.

[GreshamH]

Originally Posted by JamOne1

I hope wholesalers and collectors have websites like this to help each other, because they have as much room for improvement as we do.

There is a place many of us wholesalers and industry people used to gather at... but info sharing, you know, something that gives your competition a leg up, isn't really what business is about.... so very little good stuff was ever shared, or will be shared. Some dedicated people like me tried to share but were not welcomed with open arms really.

[aday2remmbr]

i have a very good friend that is one of the many collectors for a very large saltwater fish company that everyone knows im sure ( starts with a "pet" and ends with a "co"). well i was invited to tag along with him to collect some fish, and by the end of the day i could have puked. they had poured large amounts of cyanide into the water and when the majority of the fish had hidden in the coral outcroppings and they werent having much luck catching any they would light a stick of dynamite and toss it in.

just by the time the boat had gotten back to shore a good 75 percent of the fish were already dead and the ones surviving were not looking good.
quite an experience.

[Gill_bucket]

Originally Posted by aday2remmbr

i have a very good friend that is one of the many collectors for a very large saltwater fish company that everyone knows im sure ( starts with a "pet" and ends with a "co"). well i was invited to tag along with him to collect some fish, and by the end of the day i could have puked. they had poured large amounts of cyanide into the water and when the majority of the fish had hidden in the coral outcroppings and they werent having much luck catching any they would light a stick of dynamite and toss it in.

just by the time the boat had gotten back to shore a good 75 percent of the fish were already dead and the ones surviving were not looking good.
quite an experience.

I don't want to be rude, but I am having a really hard time buying this post. Where were you when this happened?

[billsreef]

Originally Posted by aday2remmbr

i have a very good friend that is one of the many collectors for a very large saltwater fish company that everyone knows im sure ( starts with a "pet" and ends with a "co"). well i was invited to tag along with him to collect some fish, and by the end of the day i could have puked. they had poured large amounts of cyanide into the water and when the majority of the fish had hidden in the coral outcroppings and they werent having much luck catching any they would light a stick of dynamite and toss it in.

just by the time the boat had gotten back to shore a good 75 percent of the fish were already dead and the ones surviving were not looking good.
quite an experience.

Umm, the "referenced" company does not run any collecting stations or directly do any import/export. However, they do use several large suppliers...one of which supplies the majority of their fish and is one of the largest operations in the US with several overseas collection stations.

[aday2remmbr]

yes i am aware, their supplier is segrest farms, they also supply petsmart and several of the lfs' in colorado, we were in the western pacific specifically around indonesia and micronesia.

[deehz]

Originally Posted by 808Rob

SUPPORT AQUACULTURE!!!
Isn't that what we're trying to do with our tanks???

A M E N!!!
I just hope this is what we all in this hobby are collectively aiming towards--responsible reef keeping.

[organism]

Originally Posted by aday2remmbr

i have a very good friend that is one of the many collectors for a very large saltwater fish company that everyone knows im sure ( starts with a "pet" and ends with a "co"). well i was invited to tag along with him to collect some fish, and by the end of the day i could have puked. they had poured large amounts of cyanide into the water and when the majority of the fish had hidden in the coral outcroppings and they werent having much luck catching any they would light a stick of dynamite and toss it in.

just by the time the boat had gotten back to shore a good 75 percent of the fish were already dead and the ones surviving were not looking good.
quite an experience.

I'm trying to find a nice way of saying that's an outright lie, but... that's an outright lie. Dynamite creates a shockwave that kills fish almost instantly, it's why they use it for fishing, and collectors do not and will never use it. It's like saying someone harvests strawberries with a lawnmower. Collectors get paid for the live fish they bring back, so why you'd feel a need to make something like that up is beyond me.

Also, "pet" and "co" do not own collection stations, and as a result don't have specific collectors. The only plausible part to your story is that, at some point in time in your life, you were on a boat.

[Gill_bucket]

Originally Posted by organism

I'm trying to find a nice way of saying that's an outright lie, but... that's an outright lie. Dynamite creates a shockwave that kills fish almost instantly, it's why they use it for fishing, and collectors do not and will never use it. It's like saying someone harvests strawberries with a lawnmower. Collectors get paid for the live fish they bring back, so why you'd feel a need to make something like that up is beyond me.

Also, "pet" and "co" do not own collection stations, and as a result don't have specific collectors. The only plausible part to your story is that, at some point in time in your life, you were on a boat.

I am guessing he is younger than some people on this sites fish. LOL. Still though I don't remember being a teller of tall tales when I was an adolescent.

[Gill_bucket]

I love how specific is "around Indonesia and micronesia" LOL

[billsreef]

Originally Posted by organism

I'm trying to find a nice way of saying that's an outright lie, but... that's an outright lie. Dynamite creates a shockwave that kills fish almost instantly, it's why they use it for fishing, and collectors do not and will never use it. It's like saying someone harvests strawberries with a lawnmower. Collectors get paid for the live fish they bring back, so why you'd feel a need to make something like that up is beyond me.

Yup. Dynamite fishing is solely used by food fisherman that aren't concerned with the fish being alive. Collectors for the ornamental trade wouldn't be able to get anything marketable via dynamite fishing. Heck, even a M-80 kills anything close enough to be effected by the concussion.

[aday2remmbr]

believe what you wish, i was just trying to tell a story. you say that dynamite kills fish instantly but they used it, and it worked. i dont know if it was ordinary dynamite it would stun the fish for several minutes then they would snap out of it. and trust me, im just as old as you guys.

[SkullV]

Originally Posted by aday2remmbr

believe what you wish, i was just trying to tell a story. you say that dynamite kills fish instantly but they used it, and it worked. i dont know if it was ordinary dynamite it would stun the fish for several minutes then they would snap out of it. and trust me, im just as old as you guys.

Hahaha this guy again! He is currently telling a tall tale in the anemone forum as well. Also found it prudent to lie about his local LFS' prices in a sale thread of mine. Even after calling the LFS and speaking with an employee he insisted he was telling the truth. I feel the same way as the rest of you about his age, no reason for an adult to lie in order to validate themselves.

I wish some of the fish on my wishlist were being bred in captivity. Aquaculture is the only.hope our hobby has for survival.

[dustinc]

Originally Posted by doublenerds

We're also the ones that are sitting still while oil companies enjoy some of the highest profits in history and consumer gas prices rise to astronomical levels. It's not the Phillipines that refused to even consider cutting billions of dollars of taxpayer incentives currently given to American oil companies...that would our US Senate (well, the Republicans anyway) that did that.

This post is very far off base. Oil companies make less profit per item than most every other type of company in the world. They rely on quantity which we give them. Do a little research before you talk about their profits. I'm not saying they didn't make a ton of money, but the reason they did was quantity, not price gouging. And no I don't work for any oil company, I just know business acumen.

[GreshamH]

Originally Posted by organism

I'm trying to find a nice way of saying that's an outright lie, but... that's an outright lie. Dynamite creates a shockwave that kills fish almost instantly, it's why they use it for fishing, and collectors do not and will never use it. It's like saying someone harvests strawberries with a lawnmower. Collectors get paid for the live fish they bring back, so why you'd feel a need to make something like that up is beyond me.

Also, "pet" and "co" do not own collection stations, and as a result don't have specific collectors. The only plausible part to your story is that, at some point in time in your life, you were on a boat.

I know numerous wholesalers that supply PETCO and PETSMART. Neither of those companies does anything other then buy fish stateside. They have no interest in the field what so ever.

I have major CN experience over the past umpteen years and in all research I have done, it all point so localized uses. CN is not cheap. They do not dump it over a large area. CN is used to keep the collectors in debt as well.

Dynamite is food dish only. Ever been underwater when even a Blackcat goes off?

Lovely fiction, too bad we're all very privy to the non fiction version

[bamf25]

Originally Posted by dustinc

This post is very far off base. Oil companies make less profit per item than most every other type of company in the world. They rely on quantity which we give them. Do a little research before you talk about their profits. I'm not saying they didn't make a ton of money, but the reason they did was quantity, not price gouging. And no I don't work for any oil company, I just know business acumen.

To add to this, the governement (state and federal combined) make more tax money per gallon sold then the company selling the gas.

As fot the origianl post. Knowing there is any lose makes me sad. I lose a fish and I feel guilty about it for days, and beat myself up. The % really does not matter to me.

[Paco]

What is the difference between an ornamental fish and a food fish?

100% of food fish end up dead -- who is crying for the pollack?

Just trying to be realistic here. Yeah, we shouldn't waste fish but I eat way, way more fish in a year than I am responsible for killing via my participation in the aquarium hobby.

[billsreef]

Originally Posted by Paco

What is the difference between an ornamental fish and a food fish?

One is generally considered a pet, along with all the emotional attachments that come with that status. The other is simply considered dinner

From a simple extractive fisheries concept, the only difference is method of fishing and handling of the catch afterwards. In either event, both types of fish have been removed from the environment.

[Paco]

Originally Posted by billsreef

One is generally considered a pet, along with all the emotional attachments that come with that status. The other is simply considered dinner

This is exactly my point. Maybe we should step off our holier-than-thou platforms and not get so bent out of shape. Again, I don't want to see fish die unnecessarily but I think any attempt to remove something from its native environment and to ship it around the world will result in some die-off. And they're just fish. Yeah, I like 'em. I don't like it when they die but I don't feel guilty for days or beat myself up.

Last night at dinner I was taking a fish-oil capsule and one of my kids asked about it. I said it was from fish livers and asked how would he like to have a job squeezing fish-oil out of fish livers.

"No way!"

So I asked him how he thought the fish felt about it .