KNO3 dosing Q (primarily)

[The_Nexis_One]

Hello,

I'm a daily reader here (in particular - this forum), but don't think I've ever posted on RC. So... I'll give you the details to paint the picture.

First let me say thank you to Sarah (Samala), Bill (Billsreef) and the many other dedicated reefers and Macro/Vascular SW people for giving so much of their time/knowledge to this forum. It's always a pleasant read here.

I had a 250Gal system: 157g Display w/ several tinker tanks, 'fugs, growout tanks, 1000W VHO on the display, etc. for 5 years. It went from softies, to LPS, to LPS and SPS, to...crash.
I had a serious crash which I found out later was from someone (pointing at my wife) spraying a liberal amount of pesticide/herbicide on the plants all around the tank. The tank metabolized most of it as I ended up with a choking amount of a mysterious black algae (like a dense powder that wouldn't come off the rock or coral) that no-one at the LFS's had ever seen - most of my corals and many fish were dead within a couple weeks and it consumed the tank shortly there after ... anyway - that's all to say that this setup went bad as I was in the early phases of moving, so I didn't rescue it as I could have as it was going to be broken down, reorganized and the display was going to 'dry storage' anyway. Oh.. and the wife got to 'revisit' what it was like living in an urban apartment for 6 months during our subsequent seperation.

I gave away all my surviving corals to Reef'ing friends of mine and put the tank in storage. I took a portion of the 5" DSB, all the LR and surviving critters and put it into the 30Gal fug and a 40Gal breeder in my new home. The 'fug was moved with 1/3 tank section of it's DSB intact because of the mangroves roots and the 5 year old DSB. (as an aside: the 3+" DSB in the fug and the 3year old 5" DSB in the display were both VERY VERY healthy and emitted 'zero' odor when they were removed and had no dark spots or concretions.) The move was very rushed so the tanks were just 'setup' to run and get the critters back in and out of their buckets... Other than my heart aches from seeing the tank go - all went well.

That was about 8 months ago....

I have a 30g predatory 'fug with 4" DSB, 2 Mangrove trees, LR and a handful of Macro's, the tank is long and shallow and headed toward a 'lagoon' setup. The overflow is full tank width and spills over into a small reef rubble chamber for pods (just cuz it was there from a DIY Surge project). The 'predatory' part is because this is where my Snowflake Eel lives. Lighting consists of 3 Sylvania 60w incandescent track lights and a 6500K fluorescent to raise the visual color temp for viewing the mangroves - they are growing very well - these lights are all mounted on the ceiling. And a LOA 6500K 65W is 'tank top' for the macro and anemone. The water is only 8" deep so it's fairly bright light. The goal is to fill the 'non mangrove' half of this tank with vascular plants (emergent and not). I spoke with Bill about this a few months back and have been working the sand bed depth up and watching for a used MH deal in preparation.

The Display is 40gal Breeder "FULL" of LR, a growing DSB (I'm trying to get it to 2.5-3" slowly) I have two small Blue-Green Chromis and a Kupang Damsel.

My tank fought off the black mystery algae within a couple months and has been doing great - thanks to plenty of hermits and critters, new lights, new water and... well new home, etc.

I have continued to fight the Cyano battle as it's slowly coming back in this new setup. I have some basic corals (rock anemone, handful of Zoo's, green star polyps, and some Bryarium that survived on some LR from the previous setup, just to give me something to look at. Coraline, sponges, feather duster worms, etc are all multiplying and everything seems to be doing very well.

I have a 20g sump with an Amiracle (junk) skimmer that I DIY'd after reading several DIY skimmer faq's and it's working well enough now... probably too well, considering I'm having to add nitrates

I don't dose anything regularly and the only additive is Kalk from my DIY Kalk reactor. This keeps my underused system at ~ 430Ca and 12DKH. pH Swings from 8.0 to 8.5 on the Pinpoint from night/day.

Misc:
Ammonia/Ammonium: 0
Nitrite: 0
Nitrates: 0
Phosphates: (you guessed it) detectible
Salinity/SG: 1.024
Temp: 78* by day, 76* by night (not planned, just need to upgrade heater to one of the others I have)

So.... that brings you up to date.

Now... Geeze.. what was my question again... oh, right - Macro's.

I keep buying macro's, calerpa (various types), Chaeto, etc and they all slowly die. They all seem to meet the same demise.

I put them in, they grow a little bit, pop out some new leaves (sorry for the terrestrial terms) drop some new roots, and then are quickly consumed/cover/smothered by filamentous or other micro algae.

I've been reading post after post about the benefits of dosing KNO3 in respect to Cyano and Micro's that I decided to look for some at local stores.

Low and behold - I found the last three bottles of Green Light Stump remover that HD had.... on clearance for $1.99 a bottle.

They all found a home with me

My question is - how much do I dose? What procedure should I follow?

I'm heading out today to get a Salifert Nitrate test kit before I do anything, but for years now (ever since I connected the, then new, refugium with DSB my Nitrates were 0 within 6 weeks - never to return...)

I've read that I should mix a 1L bottle with an amount of KNO3 (can't recall off the top of my head if it was 1/4tsp or 1tsp) and then dose that.... but I'm unsure as to how much to actually dose daily. I know that I'll be working up to a stable 5-10ppm residual in the system, but .... well... I guess I just need someone to pat me on the back and tell me "it's ok... put the stump remover in your precious tank"...

Once I get the NO3 stable, I'm sure I'll end up dosing the Flourish that Sarah pointed out in the Chelote Iron thread ('New' iron source) ... just for a heads up.

Any suggestions/details would be greatly appreciated (on any topic or comment actually )

Sincerely and TIA,
John.

(sorry for the LONG post)

[The_Nexis_One]

.... and the server makes a liar out of me: "Posts: 138"

"It's been years since I posted" ... that should be more accurate.

TIA,
John.

[3D-Reef]

John
IMO,I would try iron, before adding the kno3, to get the plants to grow.Then ease into the kno3 if needed.
Clay

[Samala]

I am diligently working up a response and I'm very glad you brought it up. This is a topic that needed a post on it long ago. I hope to have it up late tonight.

>Sarah

[Samala]

It is possible to make up a dilute solution of KNO3 + distilled H20 (dH20) and dose this to the tank, test frequently, and have a rough idea of how much of that solution (in tsps or milliliter or cups) that it takes to raise your nitrate to a certain goal measurement. But, if the solution is really dilute/weak, you might have to add a lot of solution. Totally depends on the person as to how annoying this may become. To me its very annoying, I like to be able to dose just a few ml’s worth and be done with it. The trade off here is security. If you make a dilute solution, and then have an accident where it all splashes into the tank, the resulting nitrate spike may not be enough to kill anything in the tank. If you were to splash one of my solutions, you’d have major major problems!

---

If using a weak solution I would certainly try 1tsp to 2cup (~500ml) of distilled H20. Test before dosing. Test after a trial dose of say a half teaspoon or less. Increase doses of this solution as needed to raise the nitrate to your target level. Test over the next few days to see how fast your nitrate disappears. Add doses to raise from a zero reading.

Eventually you will reach a nice rotation where you will know a) how much of your solution it takes to raise the tank to 5ppm and b) how often you have to add it.

A bit of upfront work but in the long run it should be just fine. I would retest the tank to re-determine the B portion every other month or so. If you get a point where your dose disappears inside of a day, then you'll have to increase the amount of solution you're providing. The more plants you have the faster the nitrate will disappear. Same if you increase/decrease the amount of LR or sand in the setups as well. All three of these are effectively competing for N in the tank and changes in the amount of any will change the N-uptake rate.

For an example my tank, about medium plantings, med-high light, no LR, lots of sand.. 300mg of nitrate each day disappears currently. (5ppm of nitrate, in 60L of water or so, about 300mg total.) In the beginning it was less than 100mg per day, about four month mark somewhere between 150-200mg per day. Nitrate needs increase as the plant load has increased.

Oh.. nitrate needs may decrease if you add more fish or feed more. Almost forgot that one. Overall its a very flexible thing that warrants a little testing if you make any major changes.

----

Now, I should note some issues with nutrient dosing. I do not know, over time, how it impacts the sand in your setup. If you go with my suggestions to improve plant growth by adding a little fertilizer you have to accept that this experiment is still very short term and I cant tell you that in two years time the tank will be trashed. (!) Its hard to predict things when you are trying something relatively new so I just like others to know that.

Also, I have never used the stump removers as a source of KNO3. Please do be aware of the issues with working with this chemical (its actually rather safe and not a big deal) by reading the MSDS (generic one for a stump remover here) for the product if you can find it. Sounds overly paranoid, but that's my job. Hopefully this source is pure enough to not contain too many contaminants. Honestly the freshwater people have been using it for years so if there is really a problem with this source I'd think we would have seen it by now.

----

Last, if you would like to get scary with your nitrate dosing, and want to try your hand at a concentrated solution, let me know. It is a matter of approximating the capacity of your system in liters and relating back to the amount you'd like to dose. A little math, not too bad. I'd try the weak solution route first.

Oh.. and welcome to the dark side!

>Sarah

[AIMFish]

Hey, I'm not to proud to ask, 50 views and hopefully I'm not the only one wondering , but is kno3 possibly potassium nitrate?

[Samala]

Yep, thats the stuff, potassium nitrate.

>Sarah

[The_Nexis_One]

Originally posted by Samala
Now, I should note some issues with nutrient dosing. I do not know, over time, how it impacts the sand in your setup.

Understood, I promise not to hold it against you .... or anyone else. I've done my reading and feel confident enough to try... just wasn't 100% how to take that first step.

Also, I have never used the stump removers as a source of KNO3. Please do be aware of the issues with working with this chemical (its actually rather safe and not a big deal) by reading the MSDS (generic one for a stump remover here) for the product if you can find it.

Agreed - I have read many many pages about KNO3... lots of info online about it... and a good portion of it is about dosing it to FW/SW aquariums while the rest is about making things that go boom...
Green Light Stump remover is supposed to be the best 'stumpy' source of KNO3 because it's reported to be 100% KNO3 without any anti-caking, etc additives. Hopefully this remains true as this report was from last year. Regardless, I don't have much to loose in my tank as far as corals go, so I'm willing to do a little experimenting now to gain knowledge for the long run.

Last, if you would like to get scary with your nitrate dosing, and want to try your hand at a concentrated solution, let me know. It is a matter of approximating the capacity of your system in liters and relating back to the amount you'd like to dose. A little math, not too bad. I'd try the weak solution route first.

I'll walk the path... no shortcuts for me .... Now, once I've been down that path, I'm all about shortcuts - so I'll be in touch

Oh.. and welcome to the dark side!

>Sarah

I've been watching this forum for a long time. And I've been dreaming in fields of Turtle grass ever since my Carribean Honeymoon Cruise. It feels good to make progress towards having some of my very own.

Thanks again for the time and effort Sarah!


OH, any thoughts on the Iron dosing mentioned above?

John.

[Samala]

No trouble John, I'm happy to blab away if someone is willing to read. For iron, this was a pretty good thread though you may have already seen it. We do not quite all agree on how to dose iron yet. There are two major 'forms' of it available, iron EDTA and gluconated iron. The only supplier who sells gluconated iron so far is Seachem, they put it out for the freshwater planted tanks with the intention that gluconated molecules are easier to pull apart in freshwaters' typically lower pHs. Considering that lots of iron is bad in saltwater tanks, and that these gluconated forms might fall apart even more easily in higher pH saltwater.. the thinking was that using iron EDTA would be better. Randy, the chemist guru, doesnt seem to agree with the idea in that thread. Perfectly okay with me as far as disagreement () because discussing pros/cons of each is the only way we'll eventually figure it out.

We need to answer a) if the plants have a preference between the two and b) which form is more safe to use in the typical marine planted tank. It'll take some good equipment to measure iron levels, which makes testing ideas a little hard. Hobbyist level kits will likely be neither sensitive enough or accurate enough to help us in any iron studies we want to run. So it may be left to the chemists or with those that have lab access. Currently, I've just got too many other interesting questions I'm trying to answer in my spare time first.

It is also possible to homebrew concoctions of iron citrate (see Randy's excellent article, there's a link in the above thread) and dose that, but iron citrate is pretty hard to find for the average hobbyist. Or, at least I dont know any readily available consumer sources.

Then we come to dosing rates. For now, I would follow manufacturer's instructions and see how the plants respond. In my tanks following directions has been working okay so far. I have said previously that dosing to the lowest detectable level by a good iron kit should be okay, but I realize now I might not want to say that without running some bioassay work. I hope most people understand that these numbers I toss out are for marine planted tanks only, and those tanks with very very large fuges where plant growth is trying to be enhanced. Just like I wouldnt suggest adding in nitrate to an SPS setup I wouldnt tackle iron in there either! Too many little lives at stake.

Randy has pointed out before that the natural level of saltwater is far far below our test sensitivity. I, on the other hand, am not sure that the 0.05 mg/L level I've suggested and used on my tanks, is detrimental. I see from the plants that it is beneficial, or at least bears some relationship to nice green plants that are otherwise looking pale in an environment where all the other parameters are good.

Truly, as I said, bioassay work is needed to determine at what concentration iron really gets to be detrimental, or causes water chemistry interactions that are detrimental. (Following the recent 'reefsafe' article I think using Xenia would be good, along with urchin larvae, as in the salt study before, and possibly Ilyanassa larvae and/or harpatiicoid copepods. The last two are pretty hardy, so, unsure as to their fitness.) Tests like that might at least help us with a benchmark.

Anywho.. short version of this.. proceed with caution.. use perhaps one of the commercial preps out on the market and follow their lead. Then, later on, if we have a better handle on iron dosing, we can get crazy with it.

>Sarah

[The_Nexis_One]

I hear ya about get'n crazy I'll proceed with great caution on the KNO3 and hold off on the Iron until it seems evident that it's needed.

As for your thread and link about Iron, I read it the day you posted.

I've been a long time follower of Randy's works. He and Bingmans works were what got me into dosing Kalk rather than $$ for B-ionic - that was even back when it was Kalk with Vinegar mix daily on the 125g ages ago... Currently, I'm about 2/3 the way through testing of my 'zero moving parts' DIY Kalk reactor before I write up a 'How to' paper on it in an effort to give some info/plans back to the RC community from my years of absorbing.... I'm interested to get some feedback on how it holds up on larger systems or systems with higher Ca/Alk demand.

I'll mix up some KNO3 today and hopefully the LFS will have some test kits in in the beginning of the week so I can start dosing.

I've noticed that while my Macro's grow - they are simply out grown by Micro's... the more light I put on the tank - the worse the bias turns toward the Micro's. I would assume that it could be the lights, but I've been using this model of light with the same bulbs (type, not actual same bulb ) for many years now without much issue... other than having High PO4, zero NO3 and a continous battle with Cyano...

On the Display, end of last week, I rebuilt the light fixture and it put the lights much closer to the water/LR yeilding a greater intensity with less 'loss' into the room... within 3 days, I had Cyano and some filamentous micro's on the rocks directly below the lights... I transfered some Hermits from the fuge (man I love those little Left Handed Hawian hermits) to the display and all the micro's are under control within a couple of days... but the Cyano - that's a different story.

I've got my fingers crossed about the KNO3 dosing, hopefully it'll facilitate the PO4 uptake enough to choke out the Cyano while giving me some lasting green... I'll be all to happy to go get some more Macro's if it begins to work Likewise, I can hardly wait to make an order from Bill (Billsreef) to get the lagoon wrapped up nice with Thallasia and others.

God help me if this works - I'll be a Macro Trading FOOL ... Going to have to invest in those little thermoses for shipping

Thanks again.
John.

[The_Nexis_One]

UPDATE: 2/5/06
__________________________

Well... I've got some good news and some bad news.

First.. the Good news:
I finally got a NO3 test kit from the LFS. I was looking for a Salifert test kit, but all they had gotten in was the Aquarium Pharm. brand. After testing, I can't say I'm real excited about the AP test kits... I think I'll be getting a Salifert anyway if I end up dosing KN03 regularly.

Now... The Bad news:
My Nitrates test at 20ppm! and I never dosed the KNO3...
I can only assume that this is from the recent tank rebuild where 100% of the display rock was removed and the tank was drained down to the sand bed for many days while I got the new stand settled and leveled. I know that I had some die-off in the LR due to a malfunctioning heater (actually 2, one never came on, another stayed on too long) and some parts of the LS were exposed to air for some time during this 'unexpectedly long' change over. In addition, the lights in the Display have been off for 3 days straight prior to my drawing the test sample in an attempt to keep the Cyano in 'check' until I got the test kit and had a game plan.

Additional news for concern: I mixed up some KN03 (2tsp KNO3/1L DI) about a week ago, in advance of getting the test kit... I resisted the urge to dose a little to 'see' if it helped - now i'm glad I did, no telling what my NO3 would have jumped to. (granted, probably not much more, but I'm patting myself on the back for not being stupid and dosing without testing first ) The unpleasent part of this is that there is a sediment in the bottom of the KNO3 solution. It looks like snow, almost like Ca fell out of solution, but this was a mix of RO/DI and KNO3 (stump remover)... I'm wondering if these are impurites or if it was some sort of anti-cake additive... in either case, it appears to have come out of solution and I'll not be dosing the precipitate. Hopefully all that is left in solution is KNO3... If I end up dosing regularly, I'm sure I'll end up buying some pure KNO3 from one of the sources recommended here.


While I was at the LFS, they were having a sale on all their Kent products. So... I picked up some Kent Freshwater Plant Forumula. K*Fe Micronutrient Plant Suppliment with Potassium & Iron.

Freshwater Plant: 0-0-3

Guaranteed Analysis:

Soluble Potash (K20)................ 3.0%
Copper (Cu) (Min)..................... 0.00001%
Iron (Fe) (Min)...........................0.24%
.24% Chelated Iron
Manganese (Mn) (Min).............. 0.01%
Molybdenum (Mo) (Min)............ 0.0009%
Zinc (Zn) (Min).......................... 0.00014%

Sources of Nutrients:
Muriate of Potash, iron EDTA, manganese EDTA, zinc EDTA, sodium EDTA, cobalt chloride, copper EDTA, sodium molybdate.

Other ingredients:
Deionized water, humic acid, kelp extract.

Recommended Dosing (FW) is: "Add one to three teaspoons per 30 gallons of tank capacity one to three times per week,..."


Now, as good as I was with not dosing the KNO3 without testing... I quickly managed to convince myself that if it wasn't the NO3 limitation, it would probably be an Fe limitation causing the Micro/Cyano growth, and as such, I wouldn't be able to test for it accurately anyway. I probably should have a test kit for Iron, but 1) I don't have much in the tank as far as inhabitants, and 2) I'm not sure hobbiest test kits would do much good other than to let me know when I've overdosed.... So, I don't think I'll bother with a test kit for now, I'll just start with very low doses and gradually (weeks) work my way up and stop when I see a difference in the system.

So... running with that - I dosed 1ml of the Fe Micro Nutrient solution yesterday (tank capacity ~75g) and watched the tank for almost an hour without any noticable change in activity of the inhabitants.

This evening I went back and checked everything out again and have some 'percieved growth' in my Macro of about 1/3" on most, if not all, runner tips. Not much in frond growth though - but I didn't have any before... I know the dose was a drip in the bucket (almost literally), but I studied the Macro clump when I dosed the first time so i could visually measure the runners again later to see if there was a difference.

Since I had a successful first dose, I just dosed another 1ml of solution tonight (about 18 hours later). Just prior to dosing tonights 1ml, I drew 5ml of tank water and tested for NO3's. As best as I can tell, I'm already down to an 'estimated' 10-15ppm. I'm not fond of these test kits as it's hard to determine color, but it appears only slightly darker than the 10ppm and not nearly as dark as the 20ppm as it was yesterday. I'll hesitate to make assumptions as best I can, but it appears that at least my NO3 issue is short term. I'm pretty confident that I'll end up dosing KNO3 as well as Iron.

Thoughts? Suggestions? Reprimands?

Thanks for all the help,
John.

[Samala]

A reprimand for me and not you actually. I'm excited to see you've got growth and are playing with the nutrient dosing. I think its really fun for people to dose iron as you are and watch nitrates fall or to dose nitrates and watch phosphates fall.

BUT.. I'm worried about the copper EDTA in your Fe solution. I should have noted that before.. for example Seachem puts it in its Fluorish and Fluorish trace solutions and I dont use those for the copper reason and other reasons (like nutrients outta whack or wanting to dose iron separately). All in one preps make me paranoid. While it may be a really tiny amount it still worries me a bit. Its not a very necessary micronutrient (a serious trace element if there ever was one) I hedge on adding it to my grass/macro tanks just because I fear for the inverts. Perhaps the LFS will take it back, let you get a bottle of the marine Fe EDTA stuff from Kent instead?

It may not be anything worth worrying over but just a little red flag that went up when I read it. Dont want you to lose any fun wormies/pods/snails/etc because of copper. Proceed with cuation, as before.

>Sarah

[The_Nexis_One]

Yeah.... I know.... Sigh (Cu)

I was a little concerned about that too when I read the label, but figured it was such a small amount that it wouldn't be an issue... I thought I had read here that others were using similiar solutions (commercial w/ Cu) so I figured I'd give it a shot. It might even keep me 'honest' about doing water changes.

I'll do some research today into it before dosing any more. Maybe run it back to the store... Although I SERIOUSLY doubt they will take it back - the 8oz bottle was sold for 5 bucks. They are liquidating all their Kent products because the last 'set' of Kent 200g Salt buckets they got in were all out of balance. It caused much death and issue with almost all the stores tanks (including the 1000g) They lost about 60% of their corals because of it.

Thank you for the heads up.

John.

[The_Nexis_One]

Ohh. Sarah... PLEASE UNDERSTAND that I'm not trying to put you on the spot...... but I think this might.

I started my research into dosing commercial FW solutions into SW for Iron... and quickly stumbled across this:

Posted by Samala on 06/23/2005 08:09 PM:

Ok - here's a quick warning from a Seachem rep to me on using iron in a marine environment:

"The amount of copper in Flourish is minimal - trace quantities for plants. It should be fine in marine systems. However, what is of primary concern is the amount of iron in Flourish. This will react quickly with the carbonates and fall out of solution. But, we have seen much higher toxicty of iron at lower levels in marine systems - particularly in the event of precipitation. So, the copper is not of issue but the iron may very well be of issue. Just a friendly warning."

I do NOT know at what concentrations we should worry about iron but I would not dose it at the same rate you might for freshwater.. not even close.
...

>Sarah

So I grabbed the data for Seachem's Flourish product:

Seachem.com

Guaranteed Analysis
Total Nitrogen
0.07%
Available Phosphate ( P2O5)
0.01%
Soluble Potash
0.37%
Calcium (Ca)
0.14%
Magnesium (Mg)
0.11%
Sulfur (S)
0.2773%
Boron (B)
0.009%
Chlorine (Cl)
1.15%
Cobalt (Co)
0.0004%
Copper (Cu)
0.0001%
Iron (Fe)
0.32%
Manganese (Mn)
0.0118%
Molybdenum (Mo)
0.0009%
Sodium (Na)
0.13%
Zinc (Zn)
0.0007%

Derived from: Potassium Chloride, Calcium Chloride, Copper Sulfate, Magnesium Chloride, Ferrous Gluconate, Cobalt Sulfate, Magnesium Sulfate, Manganese Sulfate, Boric Acid, Sodium Molybdate, Zinc Sulfate, Protein Hydrolysates.

The Kent FW Plant product I'm using is reporting:

Copper (Cu) (Min)..................... 0.00001%

that's:

Seachem... 0.0001%
Kent......... 0.00001%

Granted, that's been 7 months back and I'm sure opinion/experiance has changed/grown for all of us... but...

Thoughts?

Respectfully,
John.

(the Pseudo Newbee sits filled with anxiety after calling out the teacher)

[Samala]

Lol........ thats what I get for responding to posts at 5:20am after watching Disney movies allllllllll night long. At least I know you certainly do read the forum! Keep in mind Seachem was advising me on a seagrass only tank at that time. No fish, no invertebrates other than hitchhiking pods/nematode life and certainly no corals, live rock or other fun stuff.

Alright, I rescind my paranoid thoughts and return you to your regularly scheduled dosing. If you find more on copper in aquaria (Randy might be good for this) let us know or link us to it. I dont remember NSW copper levels, though data like that should be relatively easy to find.

>Sarah

[The_Nexis_One]

:-)

ah.... Disney fan are ya.

I'll keep looking and I will probably even dose a bit more... just to see what happens. I'll continue to keep an eye on my Inverts, but so far, nothing out of the ordinary.

I'll be getting some Iron suppliment soon so it wont be an issue - the wife can use this 'stuff' in the bog filter on her Koi tank...

Thanks for all the help,
John.

[The_Nexis_One]

Ok... it's day 3 of dosing 1ml of my Kents FW Plant solution. I've noticed a vast improvement in the growth of my Caulerpa, shoots growing out of the clump where I didn't even know where were shoots!... My Red Bubble algae, Botryocladia pseudodichotoma I believe, has almost doubled it's colony size. It's never grown very well, and the current ~12 bubbles have been slowly growing from one over the course of the last 1.5 years... and it's doubled in bubble count in 2 DAYS! Absolutely Amazing.

I still have a micro problem on the caulerpa itself and Cyano in the display. But with growth like this, I don't see how the system can't be getting better and I expect my NO3 to be dropping (will test again tonight). This is exactly the evidence I needed to see - Now I'll move forward with setting up a 10g Cheato system next to the sump.

Hopefully, the Iron will help facilitate the use of the NO3, then by dosing continued amounts of NO3, I can facilitate the uptake of PO4 which IMHO has been limiting my coral growth and keeping the Micro/Cyano growing like mad....

Exceptional! Thank you so much Clay & Sarah.

John.

[3D-Reef]

John,
Your welcome.
Your battle with cyno sounded just like what I've been going through, With my 2'nd system.The only difference between the two,(between 1&2) is system 1 has mirical mud in it.Which is high in iron from what I've read.
Clay

[The_Nexis_One]

Update: 2/7/06

I just tested my Nitrates and they are down to 10ppm (from 20ppm only a few days ago). Macro growth is continuing, Micro growth is too - but I don't think it'll be able to keep up with the Macro's. Hoping to get some more macro's and put togethor a Cheato tank after I finish rebuilding the wifes Koi setup in the next couple of weeks. Also planning a water change this weekend to help with Trace Elements and PO4. My corals are not responding to the Iron addition, or NO3 reduction... so I'm feeling more confident that they are redarded due to PO4. Now that things are growing better, I'm even less interested in using a PolyFilter or equiv. to remove PO4 and misc. chem's. I'm hoping that the PO4 will continue to be used up by the Macro growth.

If things continue to go as they are, I'll be beginning to dose Nitrates (KNO3) by the beginning of the week! I'm going to try to hold off on dosing the KNO3 as long as possible by using natural applications (like adding some more sand to the DSB, I'm using dry sand from my old 157g setup, so there's plenty of bio material there to convert.

Thanks again,
John.

[The_Nexis_One]

Update: 02/19/06


I'm in awe of the macro's growing! I've never been able to grow macro's in my system... until now.

Dosing Iron has completely changed the system in my mind. I'm still only dosing 1ml a day, but my Caulerpa is growing... and growing well!, still trying to ID some of the diff kinds I have. It seems that some tiny strands of the Macro's that I had attempted to grow in the past found refuge in crevices of the LR - and now they are coming out with fresh vibrant growth.

In addition to the Macro's, my Nitrates have dropped and are hovering between 5-10ppm, when my macro's mass get to the point of soaking up my nitrates, I'll start dosing KNO3 to maintain the 5ppm.

An exciting side effect of the Iron dosing is that my Coraline is starting to grow! I had given up on it growing; expected that once I got my lights straightened out with actual aquarium lights (running almost exclusively LOA 65w CF fixtures & their stock Flourex bulbs) it would start to grow from the few seed spots I still had alive on the LR and snail shells. ... Turns out that Coraline has an appreciation for Iron as well!... It's growing at a noticable rate now and I'm seeing new colonies popping up on LR around the tank.

Mangroves are still doing well and all critters/fish are healthy as usual.

Couldn't be happier with the Iron dosing and the help I received here!!!

Thank you!
John.

[graveyardworm]

This thread is going great, I think I may start dosing as well. The reason for coraline take off may also be lowering of PO4. Has the macro growth along with dosing helped to outcompete the nuisance algae? I have terrible bubble algae and was hoping to use macro along with manual removal to get rid of it once and for all. Any thoughts?

[The_Nexis_One]

Well... I specifically left that part out because the outcome is questionable. My Micro's are still growing, but I'm not sure they are as much as they were. Likewise, some of my Cyano has died back and another section has completely flaked off the rock. HOWEVER, I have moved the lighting around a little bit and have a new micro growing directly under the lights in the main display. Luckily the Hermits like it and are eating good. Once the roads are passible again and I have time I'll buy some more hermits, return my Royal urchin (refuses to stop wearing my Macro's as a hat), buy a handful more snails, and a better source of iron. I also have a water change on the list which I just haven't gotten to..

So... Yes, it 'appears' that it's helping, BUT the outcome in regards to the micro's is slow and inconclusive as of yet.

Best of luck,
John.

[Samala]

Very cool! I'm also interested to see if your PO4 has been dropping along with the nitrate as the plants grow. Happens in my tank at least!

>Sarah

[The_Nexis_One]

I'll run some water to the LFS for testing - I don't have a PO4 kit...

Yes, very cool to see the macro's growing..

Thanks again,
John.

[The_Nexis_One]

UPDATE 2/25/06:

I added some Feather Caulerpa a few days ago and it seems to be well enjoyed by the hermits! :-( I'm not sure they are eating it as much as they are stripping the feathers of the fronds off the stalk (if we can call it that). Ditto for the Royal Urchin - he made a "B" line for the fresh planting and pulled about a third of it up while I wasn't looking to make his latest 'hat' ... he's still wearing it days later (little brat...)...

Tonight, I noticed lots of new running growth and some of the leaves/fronds are getting longer on my original planting of Caulerpa. Still not sure what exact type it is, but it seems to be happy. Many of the pieces of Caulerpa that I had attempted to grow before are growing like crazy from crevaces in the LR and from being buried in the sand. Micro growth in the Lagoon is almost stopped! This in itself was amazing. I used to have to run the lights for a few days, then turn them off for a few, then repeat - just to keep the macro's from getting overrun by Micro algaes. THIS IS NO LONGER THE CASE!. I've actually lowered the lights and moved some things around to give stronger light to the caulerpa.

Tonight I also tested my Nitrates (NO3) and to my suprise.... they were absolute zero!, Nadda, Zippo!, None!, Very much so absent!. I was shocked... I even added another 1" of dead sand to the tank (this sand 'was' live and it unwashed) so it contains a lot of biomatter which I've been concious of when adding. I only add a little and space it out a few weeks inbetween additions to keep the Nitrogen cycle from going nuts... I can't believe this is going so well!. Who would have thought that adding a little iron would turn so much around in so little time... (other than 3D-reef/Clay )

I'm going to dose a tiny amound of the KNO3 I have rather than adding more sand. I'll wait until after I work through the KNO3 dose/measurements before I add more sand as it might throw off my experiment .

Super excited!

Thanks again,
John.