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Unread 04/09/2015, 12:42 PM   #26
CuzzA
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Interesting. I knew they weren't rubber bands. More so, just me mocking the appearance. I have no doubt though, it, among other things, were the likely cause of a complete blanket of cyanobacteria in the old setup. I am a little troubled by the lack of maintenance to this system by the service company. Just simple tasks like removing salt creep were completely ignored.


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Unread 04/09/2015, 12:57 PM   #27
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There was actually a company actively servicing that tank?


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Unread 04/09/2015, 12:57 PM   #28
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Bale or Ball, cyano is not the result of their presence. I maintain many commercial systems that rely on some form of artificial substrate for biological filtration and they're without excess Nitrogen-based compounds or blankets of red slime. The "bio-balls are a nitrate factory" mantra is a hobbyist perpetuated myth-information.


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Unread 04/09/2015, 02:01 PM   #29
CuzzA
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ichthyman View Post
Bale or Ball, cyano is not the result of their presence. I maintain many commercial systems that rely on some form of artificial substrate for biological filtration and they're without excess Nitrogen-based compounds or blankets of red slime. The "bio-balls are a nitrate factory" mantra is a hobbyist perpetuated myth-information.
Perhaps, but I see no upside to artificial substrate for biological filtration if the tank is full of sand and live rock. Plus, IMO the statement of bio balls being a nitrate factory is not without some truth. For example, there is no denitrifcation happening with bio balls, so the nitrogen cycle is halted at the creation of nitrates. Furthermore, due to their shape bio balls will collect detritus, therefore, removing any possibility that the nutrients are exported by another way or recycled within the system by other creatures, unless they are regularly maintained. No different than leaving a filter sock in use for a month and wondering why nitrates have spiked. Obviously you know this and the systems you maintain likely get the best attention and servicing, but for the average hobbyist, they're not going to clean the bio balls as often as they should and probably should be avoided.

As far as this system goes, I cannot pinpoint the "bale" as being the sole culprit. Like I said there were definitely more issues, like no powerheads in the tank and probably old bulbs and shoddy maintenance, but the system had a very light bio load, only 4 juvenile fish. Who knows, it's water under the bridge at this point.


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Unread 04/09/2015, 03:12 PM   #30
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The caveats mentioned are issues of neglect and are not specific to artificial biological substrates. In fact, natural medias of rock and sand are just as prone to fouling. Not fully understanding the processes involved and how they translate to enclosed artificial environments usually coupled with a good amount of abuse/neglect is the true culprit of the "Nitrate factory" myth.


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Unread 04/09/2015, 09:48 PM   #31
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OK, I believe I have a pretty good plan for the sump. I've decided not to go custom and instead use a 20 gallon high. This will give me the perfect balance of access and back siphon volume. Plus it will provide me enough room for an 8 gallon custom ATO and a skimmate locker with an auto shut off relay.

Also, after reading many of Anthony Calfo's remarks on the remote deep sand bed and reading all the successes from others of nitrates dropping like a rock, I'm a firm believer every system should have one and thus I've incorporated one into this sump. It will be filled with oolite sand and maybe a fine layer of crushed coral if I find that the sand is blowing over the baffle.

The phosban reactor is simply there for convenience to add GFO or GAC as needed.

I would love to incorporate a filter bag, but that's just not practical on a office tank like this. However, the drain will flow directly to the skimmer pump intake. My hope is this will remove a lot of debris before it makes it to the RDSB. I thought about a collection/settling chamber for the drain, but the space just simply isn't there.

The skimmer has a nice design that I liked better than some of the other space saver models as they didn't have the waste line drain to use a waste collector. Being that this system will only be serviced every two weeks I believe a waste collector is essential to insure that the skimmer doesn't overflow and just dump all its hard work back into the tank.

I am a little concerned about the 8 gallon ATO not being able to last in between service calls, but it is what it is. There's only so much room. Checking the level and keeping RO/DI water on reserve will be part of my laminated check list for the staff.

I'm going to try and incorporate as many fail safes as possible. Of course the size of the cabinet and the lack of a controller creates some limitations, however I'll likely add things like a high level float switch/relay in the display to shut down the return in the event of a drain blockage. Perhaps a water bug alarm and other things like that. Of course door locks will be the first thing installed this weekend to keep the kiddos out of the sump.

Anyway, this is the plan.





Last edited by CuzzA; 04/09/2015 at 10:19 PM.
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Unread 04/10/2015, 02:17 PM   #32
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Just our 2 cents worth. If you are going with fish-only, a good bio system is important. I would not depend on deep sand beds to remove all the organic waste associated with a fish-only. Live rock will help but an office tank is prone to overfeeding and dead fish left over the weekend. We have been saved many times by lg bio towers when somehow specific instructions of feeding a pinch was translated to hand fulls. Also, with a fish only, you may need to be able to medicate the aquarium and a deep sand bed full of life will die and may cause ammonia spikes. Also, keep in mind ventilation. The cabinet does not show any ventilation. If this is an acrylic tank and no ventilation, expect the water temp to be well above 80 and office often turn the AC up to 78 on weekends and then the aquarium may reach over 90. Remember, the cabinet and canopy have to be able to breathe, if not the temp being a problem, wood swelling will be. Most free standing rectangular tank cabinet have open backs as do the canopies.
Cylinders are cool, but they do pose logistical problems.


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Unread 04/10/2015, 04:04 PM   #33
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Thanks for the input Tom.

This tank will have some corals. Mostly weed corals like mushrooms, star polyps, xenia, corky finger gorgonian, etc. Basically stuff you couldn't kill if you tried.

I'll probably add an auto feeder to eliminate staff error. I could use a suggestion here as the tank is serviced every two weeks, so enough food to last that long will be important.

As far as filtration goes I think my plan will be excellent. Skimmer, 100-200 lbs live rock, remote deep sand bed, GAC/GFO and smart stocking should work great. Plus the system will get a water change every two weeks.

All fish will be going through a rigorous qt. I'm putting a huge emphasis on keeping all parasites and disease out of the tank.

The cabinet has 3 cutouts for fans. 2 in the stand and 1 in the canopy. I have to say, the design of these tanks are very well thought out. Fortunately, this is a medical center that is open everyday until 9 pm so the AC is never cutoff. This is also a glass tank. So I believe temperature will not be a problem. Evaporation is really my biggest concern.

We'll see. Like any plan, one things for certain, it changes.


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Unread 04/10/2015, 04:54 PM   #34
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If simple reef with rock then your bio should not be a problem. If the tank is acrylic then good ventilation will be a must. Your filtration looks good. If it was me, I would rather have micron sock instead of the deep sand bad chamber. But that's just me. Four wave pumps set to operate in two different directions could spin the tank clock wise for a minute or two then counter clockwise. That would be awesome. One of the benefits of cylinders.
Good luck. It can be a cool tank. What lights are you doing?


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Unread 04/10/2015, 05:31 PM   #35
CuzzA
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It's glass. Which was important given all of the kids that would come in contact with the tank.

Yes, the flow is going to be really cool. I love the look of fish circling the tank. Plus this will allow for a couple tangs and wrasses to really swim around and not hit a wall. I'm thinking about schooling bannerfish too. Perhaps 2-3. But I need to do more research on how well they do in captivity.

The challenge with the power heads will be attaching them to a circular overflow box. I'm hoping the magnets will be able to hold. Another option is the gyre. And yet another concern is the 36" depth of the tank. I certainly don't want any dead spots at the bottom of the tank. Trial and error is likely going to be the key here, but that's typical of any tank in terms of flow.

A filter sock would be nice, but space is limited and it would go two weeks before changing, so it would likely be counterproductive having waste sit for two weeks. I may put a fine mesh bag over the drain and see how that works.

Lights will be 2x 16" Chinese LEDs. The ones I purchased on eBay (according to the listing) have upgraded Bridgelux LED's rather than the typical Epistar and 60 degree optics. And at 30 cm out of water will hit 858 on a par meter. Obviously in the water and 36" is much different, but if I can clip 200 at 100% at the bottom I'll be happy. Hell, I've got mushrooms growing under a cheap cabinet light in my sump right now. I was amazed as I thought for sure they'd melt away.

It's funny, setting up tanks is about as equally rewarding as just enjoying an established reef. Especially challenging setups like this.

Btw, did you ever get that monster cylinder setup? Any pics?



Last edited by CuzzA; 04/10/2015 at 05:40 PM.
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Unread 04/10/2015, 08:22 PM   #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ichthyman View Post
The "rubberbands" is thinly lathed off ribbon of plastic, usually PVC. Back in the day it was an economical and effective replacement to Bio-balls in a Wet-dry filter. "Bio-Bale" typically offers greater surface area with less clogging than most Bio-balls. The only downside was the bale tends to compress over time and needs occasional "fluffing" to maintain the high void space for excellent gas exchange. In the days of $30+ per gallon (~75-90 count) for Bio-Balls, Bio-Bale could be easily made/purchased for far less money and works equally as well if not better. If you couldn't afford replacing the DLS (look that one up for some more perspective) roll in your wet/dry with Bio-Balls and thought plastic hair curlers was tacky, Bio-Bale was the logical choice. Eventually, Bio-Ball's price dropped considerably and over time so has Bale's use. Alas, Video killed the Radio Star....yet again.
Bio- bale was seen as recently as CPR Bak-pak skimmers so it's not just you old-timers that should remember it.

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Unread 04/12/2015, 04:00 PM   #37
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Ok, so here's my preliminary stocking list for what I would describe as a "Fish Only with Live Rock and Invasive Corals, except for one Torch."

Also, keep in mind, that unlike many home hobby tanks where the owner says, "I'll just upgrade the tank when the fish gets too big." and it never happens, the maintenance company has holding and qt tanks for his business. So swapping out an adult fish for a juvenile is not a problem. Also, I'm going to add an Eheim Automatic Feeder with a AA battery to AC electricity converter. I'll set it to feed the tank 3 times a day and hopefully the reservoir is large enough to hold food for two weeks in between servicing. This should help eliminate an overfeeding by a staff member and also sustain the anthias.

Here's some pics of the fish stock list, invert stock list and just a visual for my father in law to see the types of corals we'll be adding. I'm on the fence about adding photosynthetic gorgonians at the top of the tank. I may just go with artificial ones and because they'll be at the top of the rock work it would make pulling them to clean very easy.








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Unread 04/12/2015, 04:43 PM   #38
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The following are in my experience and aimed to help you succeed. Please do not take offense. Anything you don't agree with simply chalk up as crazy forum myth but as stated, this is MY experience with some of the animals on your stock list. You don't have to agree with them but I am not trying to start a debate.

24 fish seems like a lot for this size tank
I believe the angels will keep your coral irritated at best.
Hippos commonly eat zoanthids.
The chromis will eventually kill each other.
The puffer will eat your inverts.
The shrimp will need to be purchased as mated pairs or they will kill each other although coexist individually.
Emeralds commonly eat zoanthids
Scarlet hermits will eventually kill all your snails
Brittle stars can get quite large and become fish eaters
Purchasing juvenile large fish with the intent to remove as the fish out grows the provided habitat should be avoided.


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Unread 04/12/2015, 05:52 PM   #39
CuzzA
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nitr8 View Post
The following are in my experience and aimed to help you succeed. Please do not take offense. Anything you don't agree with simply chalk up as crazy forum myth but as stated, this is MY experience with some of the animals on your stock list. You don't have to agree with them but I am not trying to start a debate.

24 fish seems like a lot for this size tank
It is quite a lot and this is just a preliminary stocking list. Also keep in mind this is a cylinder. Much different than the typical box. And it is a true 125 gallons. Unlike most tanks that are sold on model rating rather than true volume. The anthias may be nixed. And maybe the emperor. It's also possible to do just one bannerfish, but I thought 3 schooling around the tank would be a great effect. Also keep in mind, this isn't and never will be a hard coral reef. So the softer corals will likely appreciate the slightly dirtier water. Of course all of the fish won't be added at once, so I'll try to monitor everything as I visit the tank.

I believe the angels will keep your coral irritated at best.
This I'm aware of and therefore am choosing mostly noxious soft corals and only those that grow and reproduce rapidly, with the exception of one torch and a few mixed zoa colonies.

Hippos commonly eat zoanthids.
Perhaps. There is no such thing as 100% reef safe. I've had a yellow tang devour a maxima clam. Luck of the draw, but a hippo, in my experience hasn't touched a coral. But again, with any animal there is no guarantee and zoanthids are not typical of a hippo tangs diet.

The chromis will eventually kill each other.
This is a possibility. However, not a certainty. For every post we see about them dwindling down to one, there are a number of post that report just the opposite.

The puffer will eat your inverts.
Indeed, I expect that hermits and snails will have to be replenished periodically.

The shrimp will need to be purchased as mated pairs or they will kill each other although coexist individually.
I have not had this happen in my experience, but they will likely be introduced together. Whether mated or not.

Emeralds commonly eat zoanthids.
It's possible, I refer back to my yellow tang and clam incident.

Scarlet hermits will eventually kill all your snails
Scarlets are usually the more docile compared to other species. Again, in my experience, I haven't found this to be 100% true. However, I added a number of empty shells to my system to allow my hermits an easy way to upgrade their home. But I'd expect some of the clean up crew to be preyed upon. The wrasse and valentini would be more of a concern than the hermits.

Brittle stars can get quite large and become fish eaters
It's my understanding brittle stars typically don't get as large as serpent stars and rarely prey on healthy fish. Furthermore, most of the fish in my stock list would not be an easy meal. Especially since I expect most of the fish to dwell high up the rock work given the 36" height of this tank.

Purchasing juvenile large fish with the intent to remove as the fish out grows the provided habitat should be avoided.
If this were a home aquarium, I would agree with you. However this is a commercial system with a commercial maintenance company. I just have the pleasure of building it because it's family. With the exception of the emperor angel, I believe all of the other fish could live full and complete lives in a 125 gallon cylinder. Remember the unique nature of this tank is there are no walls. They can swim in circles till their hearts content.
But I do appreciate the input. My goal, as with any tank, is to add a lot of biodiversity. Any chance I can throw some extra hitchhikers in when I visit for my sons check ups, I will.



Last edited by CuzzA; 04/12/2015 at 06:45 PM.
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Unread 04/13/2015, 06:04 PM   #40
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Tagging along, feel free to come shopping at my place, i have GSP, torch, and about 60 lbs of tonga, shelf and base rock


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Unread 04/13/2015, 06:40 PM   #41
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Absolutely. PM me what you have and prices. Pics would be great too.


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Unread 04/17/2015, 08:27 AM   #42
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So, just a little update.

Most of all the equipment is in. Waiting for the glass baffles from Pinellas Pasco Glass. You can't beat 4 baffles for under $30. Also, I'm expecting to pick up some custom cut pieces of acrylic to build an ATO reservoir either today or Monday. Again, for under $50 I was able to purchase the pieces from American Plastic Supply. Can't beat that, especially since to buy this specific size reservoir online was around $200.

As far as the stocking goes, I reached out to Tom at Creative Aquariums and he has agreed to supply all of the fish and prophylactic treat and quarantine them. This will be a HUGE help!!! Thank you Tom!!! The thought of me trying to treat and qt all of these fish at once was daunting.

I have decided on a final stocking. We're going to nix the Emperor Angel. Too risky, too big, too expensive for this tank. We are also going to only do one schooling bannerfish. Three would look amazing, but I'm trying to be conscience of nutrient levels and three adults would probably put quite a load on the system. Other stocking notes are nerite snails were meant to be zebra turbos. Not sure what I was thinking, perhaps the shell and being that it was really late the night before I made the illustration threw me off. The sally lightfoot crabs will be nixed too. I don't want to risk any fish being harmed.

The only other concern I have are the chromis. Due to the cost of the blue reef chromis compared to the blue/green, I'm considering just doing 5 blue/green with the hopes that this particular setup will be one of the success stories of a peaceful group. Perhaps adding equally sized juveniles they can learn to like each other. Or maybe with the unique shape of the tank, a bullied chromis can seek refuge on another side of the column. The goal is to create the typical reef environment with anthias and chromis darting around the upper water column. And as I mentioned before, the auto feeder should be able to sustain the anthias.

Anyway, that's all I got for now. I'm hoping to get this tank wet in a week or so. Stay tuned.


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Unread 04/17/2015, 07:57 PM   #43
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who will be your fish supplier?


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Unread 04/17/2015, 08:05 PM   #44
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Creative Aquariums Tampa


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Unread 04/17/2015, 09:50 PM   #45
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I like the stock list, but would hate not to have 2 angelfish in there.
Maybe a Bellus(?) or Lamarck's(?) ....Spotbreast (?)to go with the Flame.


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Unread 04/17/2015, 10:11 PM   #46
CuzzA
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I hear you. The emperor was very tempting, but I'd prefer a permanent resident.

Those you mentioned would be good candidates. A Genicanthus caudovittatus would fit well too. Fortunately any angel would be added last, so after the aquascaping is done and all other fish are in I'll try to gauge how another addition would work based on a visual assumption of all adult fish in the system.

I got all the baffles siliconed in tonight and will start setting up equipment tomorrow. More pics to come.

I am having difficulty with getting the RW-15's to attach to the cylinder overflow box. It's a double box so there's about 3/4" total and the round circumference isn't helping. I'm going to try adding more ceramic magnets to see if I can get it to hold. If not, I may be forced to semi permanently mount the holder with silicone or epoxy. I really don't like that idea though. Perhaps I can fit a magnet between the double wall. We'll see.


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Unread 04/19/2015, 06:00 PM   #47
CuzzA
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I posted this in the national board, but would like to here some TBRC feedback too

Quote:
That title probably got your attention, huh?

So here's the scenario.

For a build I'm working on (BUILD THREAD HERE), I want to incorporate the use of a filter sock from the drain pipe to minimize detritus in the sump and most importantly, detritus collecting on a RDSB. However, space is really tight and the tank is serviced every two weeks so I need a sock that won't clog too fast and has a very flexible footprint. Also, ideally, IMO, a filter bag should be changed out daily to every other day but that's just not an option here. Therefore, I'm thinking panty hose is the solution.

I could buy THESE, 20 for $5 and just throw them away after each use. This would eliminate collecting bags for washing. Also I'm thinking just a simple rubberband would be good enough to hold the sock to the 1.5" drain. I would assume that a panty hose is going to let smaller particles past, but that's ok because I don't want it clogging prior to the two week service.

I would like to hear from those who have used panty hose and most importantly how quickly does the panty hose clog.

Thanks!




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Unread 04/19/2015, 07:17 PM   #48
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I would be worried about anything sprayed on the pantyhose to prevent them from staining or for blocking odors.

Dumb suggestion....try it out on your tank at home first.


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Unread 04/19/2015, 07:39 PM   #49
CuzzA
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For $5.50 for 20 socks, I highly doubt they are using anything but nylon. I know they are safe as other people use them. The concern is more about how quickly will they clog. I can't have a regular filter sock due to space constraints, nor could I have one clog up and block the drain or overflow within 2 weeks.


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Unread 04/19/2015, 08:52 PM   #50
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why not go with the smallest size of the biggest micron sock? i think those might only be 4" diameter by 6" and maybe 50 or 100 micron?


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