Anyone Thinking of Dumping LEDS and going back to Halides

[kenpau]

Originally Posted by brad65ford

This thread is great and its still a unknown reason why its easier for success with MH then LED. This we all know just no one knows how come.

There is an obvious reason why people fail with LEDs. They are completely customisable, for this reason it is possible to set lighting spectrums that you would never see in the wild, whereas MH/T5 units are just plug and play.
I've seen a few times people posting that they are having trouble with sps growth and colour, then go on to list their settings and it is almost completely random, basically they have set it to be aesthetically pleasing on the eye but its next to useless for coral growth and colour. LEDs take more work to find that right setting, unfortunately a lot of people don't have the patience and ditch them for T5/MH and start posting about how useless LEDs are.
Also it is common knowledge that more LED fixtures are required that MH to meet the requirements of an SPS tank, so doing a comparison between MH and LEDs as Nickdo did doesn't really work unless you have confirmed the colour spectrum is the same and so is the PAR. It is definitely a bigger financial outlay for LEDs, for me that outlay pays for itself everyday by being more aesthetically pleasing, the units are smaller and generally more modern looking and natural sunrise/sunset features just add to the enjoyment of having a reef tank. My favourite time of the day is sunset in my tank, the lights slowly ramp down and my MP40s do the same, it's very a peaceful couple of hours. Something I couldn't really achieve with MH. I guess it depends on what you want from your reef and what your budget is.

[brad65ford]

Originally Posted by kenpau

There is an obvious reason why people fail with LEDs. They are completely customisable, for this reason it is possible to set lighting spectrums that you would never see in the wild, whereas MH/T5 units are just plug and play.
I've seen a few times people posting that they are having trouble with sps growth and colour, then go on to list their settings and it is almost completely random, basically they have set it to be aesthetically pleasing on the eye but its next to useless for coral growth and colour. LEDs take more work to find that right setting, unfortunately a lot of people don't have the patience and ditch them for T5/MH and start posting about how useless LEDs are.
Also it is common knowledge that more LED fixtures are required that MH to meet the requirements of an SPS tank, so doing a comparison between MH and LEDs as Nickdo did doesn't really work unless you have confirmed the colour spectrum is the same and so is the PAR. It is definitely a bigger financial outlay for LEDs, for me that outlay pays for itself everyday by being more aesthetically pleasing, the units are smaller and generally more modern looking and natural sunrise/sunset features just add to the enjoyment of having a reef tank. My favourite time of the day is sunset in my tank, the lights slowly ramp down and my MP40s do the same, it's very a peaceful couple of hours. Something I couldn't really achieve with MH. I guess it depends on what you want from your reef and what your budget is.

Thought this and i believe most all issues are do to optics/focusing light in one area. LED's for me do better lower watt leds or no optics with higher watt leds.

There needs to be teaching of how to success with LED's since there are to many failures.

[JB NY]

Originally Posted by mhucasey

That tank looks pretty nice. I will be interested to see it in a year or so. In his photos, it shows that tank is only a year or so old and that he switched to Radions 9 months ago and added most of those corals as colonies, mostly grown.

LED tanks aren't the only ones to do this, you can see lots of MH and T5 tanks from Asia on youtube that have amazing looking corals, then you see that they just started the tank a few months ago with full sized colonies...

This is one point that so many people never seem to get with so many of those asia tanks. They are mostly set up with full colonies and many times swapping out full colonies every few months when they die. Most of those tanks are very young. And yes colonies in Indonesia are about the same price of good frags are here in the states.

[d2mini]

Originally Posted by brad65ford

There needs to be teaching of how to success with LED's since there are to many failures.

Lesson #1: Spend a buttload of money!

[DavidinGA]

Originally Posted by d2mini

Lesson #1: Spend a buttload of money!

Lesson #2 change led units/brands often because something "better" is available.

[brad65ford]

Originally Posted by d2mini

Lesson #1: Spend a buttload of money!

Originally Posted by DavidinGA

Lesson #2 change led units/brands often because something "better" is available.

voices coming from those who were not successful as others

[DavidinGA]

Originally Posted by brad65ford

voices coming from those who were not successful as others

I'm still using leds myself, but have added T5's and my growth has improved drastically. So... Leds = meh decent but led+T5's is a win for me.

[d2mini]

Originally Posted by brad65ford

voices coming from those who were not successful as others

LOL, it was just a friendly jab.

But it's true.
My tank currently has a fixture that cost me $1k which included everything, even bulbs.
To get the same amount of light, I would need at least 6 Radion Pros which would cost me $4500.
This has nothing to do with success. My tank did fine under LED as shown in pics a couple pages back. I just wanted things the LEDs couldn't provide without spending a bunch more money.

[lpsouth1978]

Originally Posted by d2mini

Lesson #1: Spend a buttload of money!

I have to agree with this, and I am pro LED. My current build has cost more than $4000 and consists of nearly 500 LED's. Far more expensive than a good MH or T5 setup would be. I believe that the best way to be successful with LED's is to cover the tank in them, not just pucks, but tons of LED's.

We have seen time and time again that the most successful LED tanks have had lots of individual LED's spread over the tank. In general it is not the tanks with a Radion or two that do well, but the less expensive fixtures or DIY builds with lots of individual LED's instead of Pucks. And it can take LOTS of LED's, time, and experimentation (and money) to be successful. Unfortunately, there is not yet a plug and play LED solution for our tanks, and I'm not sure there ever will be (due to the high cost of making something like that available).

[Coelli]

I currently have two Kessil A360NEs on my 36x18x24" tank and have been considering adding one more (it's not the cost that's stopping me, it's the mounting solution since I have a eurobraced tank). Most of my coral is thriving but I do have shadowing and a frag in the upper corner of the tank, mounted high on the wall, is not getting enough light on the side facing the outside of the tank. Was thinking about moving the two existing lights to the sides by a few inches and adding one more Kessil in the middle. It might be overkill, not sure.

Other than that I've been very happy with the Kessils; the growth and coral of the coral, the lack of heat in our hot climate, the controllability, and the fact that the cats can't jump on them which was actually a very large factor in the purchase decision.

[rgulrich]

@Coelli - I have absolutely no idea what you're talking about when it comes to cats...

...but that's why I have a canopy, too. Otherwise I feel they'd be in there constantly adjusting the lights and fiddling with the pumps, when they know perfectly well that's my job.

Ray

[catman78]

My cat usually heads to the canopy top when he's psychotic. Stares at you with the look of death is his eyes, then on to the tops of kitchen cabinets.

[mmittlesteadt]

Originally Posted by kenpau

There is an obvious reason why people fail with LEDs. They are completely customisable, for this reason it is possible to set lighting spectrums that you would never see in the wild, whereas MH/T5 units are just plug and play.
I've seen a few times people posting that they are having trouble with sps growth and colour, then go on to list their settings and it is almost completely random, basically they have set it to be aesthetically pleasing on the eye but its next to useless for coral growth and colour. LEDs take more work to find that right setting, unfortunately a lot of people don't have the patience and ditch them for T5/MH and start posting about how useless LEDs are.
Also it is common knowledge that more LED fixtures are required that MH to meet the requirements of an SPS tank, so doing a comparison between MH and LEDs as Nickdo did doesn't really work unless you have confirmed the colour spectrum is the same and so is the PAR. It is definitely a bigger financial outlay for LEDs, for me that outlay pays for itself everyday by being more aesthetically pleasing, the units are smaller and generally more modern looking and natural sunrise/sunset features just add to the enjoyment of having a reef tank. My favourite time of the day is sunset in my tank, the lights slowly ramp down and my MP40s do the same, it's very a peaceful couple of hours. Something I couldn't really achieve with MH. I guess it depends on what you want from your reef and what your budget is.

Well, color me confused. LOL.

I am a newbie (to reefkeeping, but 35+ years of planted freshwater tank experience) and I honestly could not tell anyone what works for corals or not. So I'm coming at this more from an engineering/logic angle.

I've read hundreds of threads researching lighting options, from MH to T5 to LED, etc. and on my small 40G breeder I settled on a single Kessil A160WE. I've seen the same light in action on a friend's very successful reef tank (of similar proportions) and we've discussed at length what to do to get mine to work for me and why so many may have had issues with LED fixtures.

Time and time again, I keep reading (even in the big Kessil Club thread) where people can't seem to get the coverage, but are putting the lights too close, or they are getting the coverage but not the intensity, yet are only running them at like 60% of the light's output capability. Then, as you said, they adjust the lights to look pleasing to the eye, but not what works for their coral.

Am I missing something here? Why would you spend a ton of money on high output LED fixtures with adjustable intensity/spectrum and then not adjust their intensity and spectrum to give them the success they are capable of?

As I said, I'm confused about the rationale and I think it is not as much a failure of LED's but of the users themselves, or a definite built in preference or prejudice. Which is fine as I don't really care one way or another aside from getting lighting to work for me. I've got no horse in this race.

Far be it from me to tell anyone else what works for them. Like I said, I'm not experienced enough in reefkeeping to know what will work for anyone. Go with what works and what you like. It's all cool.

[ReefCowboy]

I was watching some videos on YouTube from Mr. saltwater tank who is an avid led guy and his latest tank had three portions with different lighting systems, Led/T5/MH. His statement was "I'm curious to see what differences I see with each piece of the same coral placed in different sections"(diff lighting).

I also watched a video of a build he did where the customer requested he would add t5's to the LEDs in an sps dominan tank. His comments were " In order to prevent some shadowing on the corals", "I was impressed and am also learning from my clients".

If you watch most of his videos a year ago , LEDs were the main thing he talked about, T5's and Mh were definitely a thing from the past and he was always pointing benefits of LEDs over the conventional methods. Obviously he was representing led manufacturing companies, that was his job, but according to his statements, we would see less and less of T5's and MH in the future of the hobby.

The fact that a guy endorsed by Ecotech and with as much popularity in the reef community/equipment media is now going back and adding proven lighting methods to LEDs tells us somthing IMO.

[mmittlesteadt]

I hope nobody thinks my last post was, in any way, saying any kind of lighting was better than another. It's not for me to say.

I only know that in my research of LED lighting, it seems quite obvious that many people seem to not know how to mount them or adjust the intensity and spectrum properly. For those who have and still prefer something else, well thankfully there are lots of options that one can find some kind that does work best for them.

[d2mini]

Originally Posted by mmittlesteadt

• Well, color me confused.

• I am a newbie

• Far be it from me to tell anyone else what works for them.

Nuff said.
Read the other 4000+ posts in this thread, and then get some real lighting experience under your belt.
After that, things might be a little clearer.

[DavidinGA]

Originally Posted by d2mini

Nuff said.
Read the other 4000+ posts in this thread, and then get some real lighting experience under your belt.
After that, things might be a little clearer.

Ouch lol


The guy basically was calling out the users as the ultimate issue and if they weren't idiots leds would work great...

[RomeReef]

This is crazy!!! I've had my tank up about 9 months with an ati sunpower fixture. I've thought about switching to LED but have no idea what to buy... it's a 48" long tank 20" deep with mostly sps and some lps.

If I take the plunge, what should I get?

[redwhiteandblue]

Originally Posted by RomeReef

This is crazy!!! I've had my tank up about 9 months with an ati sunpower fixture. I've thought about switching to LED but have no idea what to buy... it's a 48" long tank 20" deep with mostly sps and some lps.

If I take the plunge, what should I get?

Not sure if you read the title of this thread or if you are a troll, but obviously this is not the place to ask for led recommendation...........

[mmittlesteadt]

Originally Posted by d2mini

Nuff said.
Read the other 4000+ posts in this thread, and then get some real lighting experience under your belt.
After that, things might be a little clearer.

I've probably read at least 4000 threads on the subject.

The only thing I'm confused about is reading so many posts by seemingly experienced reef keepers buying expensive programmable LED lights, yet complaining about (or making it quite clear by their posts) that they do not know how to set and operate them, and then dumping them. The lights must be the problem given so much success by others. So that makes me wonder.

For example...I read a post (actually many similar posts) by someone who has successfully kept difficult corals for years under MH and/or T5's and then tries LED's, but thinks the LED's don't have the intensity of his previous lights, yet only runs the LED's at about 60% of their output.

I don't need to have years of reefkeeping experience to see the issue there.

Having said that, well if they don't work for you then they don't work for you. I'm also old enough and confident enough to not ever feel insulted by anyone on the internet.

[mmittlesteadt]

Originally Posted by DavidinGA

Ouch lol


The guy basically was calling out the users as the ultimate issue and if they weren't idiots leds would work great...

No, I'm not calling anyone out. I'm seriously curious (based on what I've read as to what the perceived/real problem with LED's is) why LED's do not perform as well, when I've read so many success stories, combined with many user issues. And yes, there actually are user issues with some people. Try not to feel insulted because that is not my intention.

I'm sure many who choose to dump LED's have very valid and credible reasons. I was not addressing them. I'm looking for answers, not simply opinion. That's why the title of this thread caught my eye. What actually is better? What problems are inherent with LED's versus MH or T5's? I want to know, just as much as anyone else here does.

[redwhiteandblue]

Led do have comparable intensity, however it is a more direct light source that tends to put hot spots on corals which is why many cannot run them at full intensity.

I tried led for over two years and never could get the colors I wanted. Spent close to 2k on different lighting. I really did want it to work. Could it be me, absolutely! However instead of guessing what intensity or spectrum I end I chose to eliminate one variable and go with clap on clap off halide to be able to fine tune my system and become more attentive to my livestock needs vs playing a guessing game with the lighting. Is it too intense, is it the spectrum, maybe my ramp is too long, maybe they are too high, too low.....as you can see this is exhausting, which is why I switched for the time being. I do plan to experiment on my frag tank with led in hopes maybe I can find the sweet spot.

[Wazzel]

Originally Posted by mmittlesteadt

No, I'm not calling anyone out. I'm seriously curious (based on what I've read as to what the perceived/real problem with LED's is) why LED's do not perform as well, when I've read so many success stories, combined with many user issues. And yes, there actually are user issues with some people. Try not to feel insulted because that is not my intention.

I'm sure many who choose to dump LED's have very valid and credible reasons. I was not addressing them. I'm looking for answers, not simply opinion. That's why the title of this thread caught my eye. What actually is better? What problems are inherent with LED's versus MH or T5's? I want to know, just as much as anyone else here does.

LEDs are different, they perform different and have there own set of issues. They do work and can work quite well. I really do not like the better/worst comparison or that they are not for "serious reef keepers". As an LED user who has used Mh and VHO in the past it is my opinion they are as good, but not better. The real issues with LED are coverage, startup cost, controllability, lack of proven operating parameters and lack of uniformity across fixtures.

[power boat jim]

Originally Posted by mmittlesteadt

I'm sure many who choose to dump LED's have very valid and credible reasons. I was not addressing them. I'm looking for answers, not simply opinion. .

Here in lies the problem. There are no concrete answers to your questions. You can sift through the opinions and experiences given here and and decide for yourself on what the answers are. I would recommend you look under the threads for what ever Leds you are running if you want a better chance at getting answers to questions on what intensity and spectrum to run.

[mbauma]

Originally Posted by d2mini

LOL, it was just a friendly jab.

But it's true.
My tank currently has a fixture that cost me $1k which included everything, even bulbs.
To get the same amount of light, I would need at least 6 Radion Pros which would cost me $4500.
This has nothing to do with success. My tank did fine under LED as shown in pics a couple pages back. I just wanted things the LEDs couldn't provide without spending a bunch more money.

Hey Dennis, can I ask what you went with? My Vegas are starting to fail after less than 2 years and I was looking at one of the Hamilton combos with MH and T5's. One of those to fit my 140 is just over 1k with the bulbs and everything.

This is my first large tank and I have the vegas mounted to the canopy of my DSA stand, so I'm not sure how to mount the MH if I go down that path.