too much or too little light? Your thoughts please...

[Joeb1983]

Sorry guys and gals I know there are a ton of threads on this, but I can use your help as many of you know a lot more than I do.

My corals are fading, not bleaching. I posted on a thread titled similarly, but no info as of yet, so I figured I would start a thread in hopes of more attention.

Here is the scoop:

I am having the issue with my 36" 4 bulb ho fixture on my standard 45 running:

2 x ATI blue +
2 x ATI coral +

Corals are fading to a lighter more pastel color of what they were when I got them (2 months ago), but the growth is there... Here is something funny;

I have 2 smaller sized tanks. One has all oem coralife bulbs in the fixture (30" thus the bulbs) sitting on top of the tank via the fixtures legs sitting ~4 inches above the water line.

The other is the ATI bulbs as you know that are in a canopy that is painted white inside about 9 inches above the water line.

Visually the "ATI" tank is much brighter than the other. (They are 10ft apart)

Example - I had a buddy frag me two pieces of his red orange/red monti cap. One frag went into each tank.

The ATI tanks frag has faded to a light pastel orange/pink and has grown and changed shape radically.

The Coralife tanks frag is the same dark orange color and shape as when I got it and has only encrusted the frag plug a tad on the back side. (I know flow plays a big part)

The 45 is taller than the 36 @ 24" vs 20.75".

The frag in the 45 is placed dead middle and the frag in the 36 is placed at the highest point in my rockscape.

Like I said the 45 is more visually bright, but maybe I will need to borrow a PAR meter for some actual hard facts.

I will say the only coral that has not faded was a orange Setosa frag placed at the bottom in the rockwork... Everything else that has also been in there a while; faded pastel. LPS's are doing the same, but with the addition of transparency.

The 45 is a "cleaner" tank as far as nitrates go, but nothing param, temp, or salinity wise leads me to believe that is a/the issue. (tested last night 12/11)

Salinty - 1.026
Temp - 80 degrees +/- a degree (with lighting throughout the day/night)
Amonia - 0
Nitrites - 0
Nitrates - Always less than 5
PH - 8.0 - 8.3
Calcium - 400 - 420
KH - 8 - 9 (usually a steady 8)
Mag - honestly not sure, but cal and kh are stable and I do not have a kit
P04 - Not sure as I do not have a test kit

( I do traget feed my LPS Coral Frenzy once a week, and alternate dosing my tank with either marnie snow or Seachem's Reef Zoo Plankton usually once or twice a week. I also dose Seachems Reef Plus once a week. )

Hard to believe Im thinking a 4 bulb t5 would be too bright, but I am leaning towards it... (Im probably dead wrong. lol) The tank is only a little over 12" deep thus only a/the 4 bulb.

Both tanks are on controllers with ATO's and the lighting schedules are identical.

1200 - "blue" bulbs on
1300 - "whites" on
1900 - whites off
2000 - blues off / "lunars" on
2100 - Lunars off...

I reduced the time to that schedule months back and experienced more coraline growth with the 36. (This schedule is all the 45 has known). Any questions, ideas, critiques or suggestions, again from people who know a heck of a lot more than me are more than welcomed.

Also, seing how the frags have only been in there 2 months; is 2 months long enough for the corals to adjust to the new lighting or am I jumping the gun? All frags come from a LED lit tank...

I never had this issue before so the reason for the concern. Like i said, everything has nice growth and great polyp extension, just the fading which visually I do not care for as you can imagine.

Thanks in advance for the help!

[Joeb1983]

By the way, the ATI bulbs are about a month old. I am runnin GAC 24/7 along with GFO in seperate reactors as well as UV.

[Joeb1983]

Anyone?.. Anyone at all.

[GHill762]

I've been struggling with light/pastel colors too. I'm pretty sure I've been starving my tank, I've been feeding a lot heavier lately (and with better quality foods) and I've definitely seen improvement.

you might want to get a phos test and see where that's at.

[Joeb1983]

Here are some pics for reference. Sorry, they are cell pics, but you can see what I mean...

I do feed (corals) like I said and honestly have been feeding this tank more than the other. You can see the before and after on the monti cap frag.

Again for reference:

I do traget feed my LPS Coral Frenzy once a week, and alternate dosing my tank with either Marine Snow or Seachem's Reef Zoo Plankton usually once or twice a week. (Now twice a week, Monday and Friday) I also dose Seachems Reef Plus once a week as well.

I will order a phosphate test kit, see if one of my buddies has one or if a LFS could run the test for me.

[s2nhle]

have you try to move your monti down to bottom of the tank. and move it up slowly. I think it need time to adjust to the light you have. What kind of light it was in before you get it? and what position?

[Joeb1983]

The frag(s) spent a week or so in a shallow frag tank under LED's that sat maybe 1 - 1.5' above the water line. The colony is in a 120 acrylic, mid placement under DIY LED's that sit no more than a foot above the tank.

I swapped out 2 bulbs for some true actinics to bring down the PAR last week. So far business as usual.

I've been getting frags from my buddy for over a year now with nothing like this happening, but then again that was under Coralife bulbs.

[Joeb1983]

Well, Im guessing its lighting; so hopefully the 2 true actinincs along with the addition of an eggcrate top will reduce par enough for me to see some changes here in the next few weeks.

This is what I gathered:

Too little light will brown out corals and too much light will lighten/bleach them. With not enough light, the coral produces more zooxanthellae to capture as much light as possible, causing them to darken. They will "dump" zooxanthellae when in an envoroment with too much light. We will see...


Thanks for all the help.

[tzylak]

I believe that if your introductory post was a bit more succinct you'd get more responses.
Sorry, I did not even bother reading.
Good luck.

[maddmaxx]

Originally Posted by tzylak

I believe that if your introductory post was a bit more succinct you'd get more responses.
Sorry, I did not even bother reading.
Good luck.

this forum is about asking questions. its not like in person, where if we were standing next to them that it would have been a 3 minute convo what they were explaining. so being it is a forum and you have to type the words, obviously it can come of lengthy. this forum is to ask question. so they did nothing wrong with typing everything out so they can fully explain them selves...

[Joeb1983]

No worries. I'm sure I'll figure it out as I always do. Probably the hard way.. Just figured I'd be too specific than have to answer a bunch of questions. Just looking for a little help as I want to better myself in this hobby and want what's best for my tank and all its inhabitants.

Didn't mean for it to come off as an inconvenience... Lol! I have a habbit of typing like I'm talking.

I got some good info elsewhere I'll throw up tomorrow for people who might be in the same boat.

Happy holidays!

[SGT_York]

Awesome response!

I'm a bit curious in regards to HO lighting. I've never seen good SPS colors with HO or VHO lighting. Typically T5's or above.

Also phosphates are a big deal, just as important as alkalinity and nitrates. Publish those numbers ASAP. There are far too many variables to link bleached = too much light. See if you can find a local PAR meter as well.

[Joeb1983]

^ Thank you. I'm just trying to use this forum along with others as tools per say to gain info from individuals that have been in this hobby a lot longer than myself. If asking questions helps me avoid problems than I'm all for it.

I've read countless threads in regards to this subject and tried to provide the answers to the many questions people asked in my first post. The more I read the more in-depth it gets and I feel lost sometimes. Lol!

Still have to pick up a Mag and P04 kit. My buddy has them, but has had a nasty flu this week and told me to swing by this weekend.

As far as a PAR meter goes none of my buddies have one and I have yet to call up my LFS's and ask... Always get side tracked and think about it after they are closed. (Go figure)

I priced them and they are little rich for my blood as of right now.

Like I said, I have a another tank under HO T5's and never had an issue like this... Although it is mostly dominated by softies and LPS's.

In all Honesty I think the ATI bulbs put out some serious light compared to the Coralife's.

I'll be sure to update my findings as time goes on for those interested. Thanks again!

[rustyjames]

Originally Posted by tzylak

I believe that if your introductory post was a bit more succinct you'd get more responses.
Sorry, I did not even bother reading.
Good luck.

Why would you post that you didn't even bother to read his post? There was nothing wrong with it.

How long has your tank been running?

[Joeb1983]

The tank in question is at 5 months old. The other is going on 1 year.

I will admit, I had to Google "succinct"... Haha!

After re-reading, it is rather lengthy. What can I say; I guess I was in the zone and there wasn't much going on at work that day. Lol!

I think now I understand what they were saying and take no offense. It raised a valid point to why there were so many views w/ no replies.

I do not see any I'll effects other than the fading. SPS's (beginners) are growing and the LPS's are splitting into separate heads (torches). Great polyp extension as well.

[alton]

If I only ran my lights 6 hours a day, I doubt I would have and SPS left? Beg borrow or steal a PAR meter. Check with your local clubs to see if they have one to rent. I ran 4 T5HO lamps on a 40 long once and it was fine. But I ran all the lamps 10 hours a day.

[SGT_York]

PAR meters are not for your typical hobbyist for sure, most good local forums have purchased a forum meter and will loan it out to members, DFWMAS is a good resource but you'd need to drive to Dallas.

Airforce or Army?

[Joeb1983]

^ Air Force. Been here at Tinker for going on 10 years now. Used to work in avionics, traveled all over the world and really enjoyed what I did, but about a year ago got PCS orders to a different organization, that ended being right here at Tinker as well. lol!

At least I didnt have to sell my house and up-root my family. Believe it or not, Tinker was my first duty assignment and Im still here. Ive watched many of my buddies come and go like the wind.

Now I sit in a cube and work admin stuff... Not my cup of tea thats for sure, but then again, Im in the military.

Thanks for the reminder! Ill give my LFS's a call right now in regards to renting a PAR meter.

* Called the three main stores in my area that deal with SW. No PAR meters to rent, but they can order me one. lol!

Things are sort of slim pickings here in OK. Definitely different to what I was used to in FL thats for sure. Ill keep on keeping on in my search for a PAR meter. Ill probably end up buying one with tax $ if I cant find one by then.

[Joeb1983]

Here is the info I got from another forum member: (Warning - long read)

" oh, it gets more complicated than that.

what chrisfat says is true if one ignores the amount of dissolved nutrients in the water column. if one looks at the amount of dissolved nutrients in the water, than what he says could be the opposite.

the truth is all about zooxanthella regulation. the question becomes who is in charge. in our systems the zooxanthella tend to be in charge, but in nature the coral is in charge. the difference is in who has control of resources. in our systems, we have been told to design our systems as nutrient sinks. meaning we try and collect and store all of the nutrients we can in a substrate. this as a consequence adds more nutrients to the water column. in nature nutrient sinking is controlled by tides and location. lagoons are nutrient sinks, while outer reefs are inorganic nutrient poor.

ok, back to the zooxanthella. lets say one has SPS, a inorganic nutrient poor needing organism. i am not going to get into why it has adapted to needing an inorganic nutrient poor environment, but lt has. the zooxanthella are in the coral having a great time in the wild. it gets collected and put into a SW system that is setup as most people have been told to. there are now more nutrients in the water. being zooxanthella they want resources, and like any "plant" they want nitrates and phosphates. do you think it is going to wait for the coral to provide these for it, or do you think that it will just get them from the water column? yep, get them from the water column. so the zooxanthella are super happy, the make more little zooxanthella. being a gold/brown color the coral turns brown. the unfortunate part of this is that being a "plant" it produces O2 as a byproduct. this poisons the coral. if it gets bad enough the coral will expel the zooxanthella. fading the coral. the lighting has not changed. the amount of nutrients has, and yet the coral has both become more brown and has faded.

nutrient level is ultimately the controller of color in corals. in nature the coral is in charge. the only inorganic nutrients that the zooxanthella are able to use are the waste products from the coral itself because none are available in the water column.

just to complicate things more, but really to complete the circle. the reason why people suggest getting more lights when their corals turn brown is because the bright colors we like are actually light blocking proteins. the coral will produce these to limit the population of zooxanthella. the reality is that corals need far less light than we think. photosynthetic corals have been found as deep as 140m. this is far less light than we have in our systems. "

we need to stop thinking that corals can get to much light. this would only be the case if we have aquarium lighting that was more intense than the sun at the equator, or more specifically where the corals are found in nature.

as has been mentioned one of the big limits here is the toxicity of oxygen to the coral produced by the zooxanthella. when coral just can not produce enough light blocking proteins, then the coral does not have any choice but to kick the zooxanthella out and hope that as the zooxanthella fill back in (could be different species) that the environment is more to the corals liking than the zooxanthella."

get the flow through the sump to match the flow through the skimmer.

if you are interested in SPS, then i would get rid of the substrate.

stop running carbon and GFO. let the tank do its thing. the tank is only 5 months old. you are fighting cycles right now and making it harder to get the tank stabilized.

feed the tank. one of the biggest problems people have with corals, especially SPS, is that they do not feed the tank enough. they are so worried about nutrients that the SPS starve. they NEED ORGANICALLY BOUND P, not INORGANICALLY BOUND P. this is very important and a hard concept to get. the P and N that feeds soft corals is inorganic, the food necessary for SPS is organic, the corals feed on plankton.

the "recommended" way to setup a system is not to export waste, but to sink it in a substrate. hiding detritus in a substrate is what creates the inorganic N and P that becomes toxic to SPS. the object is to remove the waste organic material before it has a chance to decompose. this means leaving the tank as empty as possible, so that once a week during water changes all of the detritus can be removed. creating a situation where the food (organic P and N) that we put into the system is feeding the corals and very little decomposing material is supplying they N and P (inorganic).

The object is to put the coral in control and not the zooxanthella.

The less stuff (read equipment and substrate) the greater the control over the nutrients. you are in put in control. you can see the food you put in, and the material being removed. substrates are great for those higher nutrient systems, but for those systems that are nutrient poor or need to be kept at a razors edge, they can become problematic. the siphoning of detritus controls the amount of inorganic nutrients in a system. the amount of food controls the amount of organic nutrients in the system. the skimmer helps to keep the nutrients we need to pay attention to visible. " -geoff-

Granted this one mans opinion based of his knowledge and experience. I do appreciate him taking the time however.

[SGT_York]

Good read, not sure it's as black and white as "nutrient level is ultimately the controller of color in corals," but it certainly is a significant contributing factor. I do agree with his implementation recommendations, considering this is specifically in regards to an SPS tank.

And enjoy your switch to the real chairforce, I'm Army Engineers and have been the proud owner of several cubicles throughout the years, certainly not as exciting as my Sergeant days but no less important and there is far more oportunity to improve Soldier's lives.

[deaddat]

joeb1983, I have recently posted a question of why my brightly colored brain has turned a dark red/brown in the LPS section, but no replies yet.

I noticed in your latest post you are talking about SPS, but LPS do like high nutrient levels, but my brain and enchinada which have/had very bright colors are very dark now. So is it a bit of a flip flop, brightly LPS corals darken due to them wanting low nutrient levels?

My tank is 95% LPS and they are all doing great with color, but none of them have rainbow like colors like my brain had.

I too have questioned my marineland "reef capable" leds and have just ordered some T5HO and shine some more blue light idk...just worth a try I guess.

My head is still spinning, but here is a good read
https://reefworks.co.uk/articles/obt...m-your-corals/

from what I can gain from that is possibly my brain is getting to much "fertilizer" so the zooanxthelle is taking over giving that brown appearance. The thing I don't get is my nitrates are 0 and my phosphate is very low, I don't have a phosphate kit ,but I have 0 algae problems what so ever.

[Joeb1983]

I have a red lobo brain in the tank as well that was a rescue. It was in pretty bad shape... The skeleton was showing all the way around and poking through the flesh. There was even a hole in the tissue.

After trimming, dipping, feeding and keeping params good a stable the hole has closed up and the flesh has grown back over the skeleton all the way around except for one small spot that shouldnt take much longer.

When I originaly got it, it was a dark, muddy, solid, burgundy. Now that it is plumping up; I am starting to see bands of green appear. Pretty gratifying.

I know LPS's prefer a little dirtier than SPS's. Im hoping the fading is just something as simple as the lighting.

T5's are all Ive known since starting this hobby and I have been pretty happy with them. Ive looked into LED's, but quality ones are $ and I would need 2 for propper covererage and I do not feel like messing with a DIY setup.

Plus the whole "full spectrum" thing and T5 supplimentation. Ill personally stick with T5's.
(Not saying anything bad about LED's; there are some amazing tanks out there)

I definetly have to get a phosphate test kit and see what thats at...

Im just puzzled why the growth is there, but with the fading issue. Maybe the frags are acclimating to the new lighting conditions and I am just creating all this for nothing...

Thanks for the link deaddat. Getting ready to check it out now. Im just as puzzled as you. lol!

[SGT_York]

Just a side sales pitch. Reefbreeders (now a sponsor) have shown to grow great and beautiful coral. I didn't believe the hype until I saw a tank for myself and made the LED switch. Some have been running for years now and they seem solid. Made in China but they do grow some nice SPS and are only about $175 which will light a 24"x30" area (my estimate) Ditched my MH's and have been happy since.

[Joeb1983]

Update:

It was just the corals acclimating to the difference in lighting. (Chinese LED - ATI T5 HO) They all darkened back up after a few months.

Now;.. I've made the switch to LED's (ATI T5 HO - AI's) and I am experiencing the same thing. Even with coral acclimation set via the controller.

Main one that is being hit the hardest is my Hollywood Stunner chalice.

[unze]

try adding some pottasium nitrate, will darken your colours