Dinoflagellates.

[Aquarist007]

Originally Posted by scubadan206

When I was dealing with dino's, it behaved like regular algae. The stuff was consuming nutrients extremely fast. When I did a three week lights out the nitrates spiked to over 50 in under a week. Nitrates and phosphates had previously tested at zero.

Here's an original pic from when it was really bad

Attachment 298936

Attachment 298937

Attachment 298938

Daniel.

The old adage"if you algae then you have nitrates and or phosphates"
I'd run Gfo for three to five days

[bertoni]

Removing the sludge, whatever it is, seems like a good idea to me. Running a bit of GFO sometimes helps, and it's easy to do, so I agree with that suggestion.

[peterpion]

Off topic but some might be interested. A chap called Glenn is using iron citrate to remove phosphate, its a liquid that he doses (very carefully). Hes got a great looking SPS reef tank (the other weird thing is he is not doing water changes and tests hos water and adds the elements he needs instead). Anyway I was quite interested in this phosphate removal method. My phosphate it turns out is 0 anyway, and I might even start dosing it (another aside, he says he has found phosphate of 0.02 and nitrate of 2.5 much better for SPS, so he actually doses phosphate and nitrate at times).

His 'method' he has named dutch synthetic reefing in case anyone wants to check it out.

Anyway this method of phosphate removal seems interesting, iron citrate is dirt cheap (I couldn't find it to buy easily but you can make it out of iron sulphate and trisodium citrate from ebay), and the iron phosphate which precipitates is skimmed.

[peterpion]

I took another couple of slides yesterday, I attach the photos of interest. Firstly there seems to be these green cells with clear fibres coming out of them, and second there seemed to be very many of these clear fibres in the thicker 'matting' algae under my immediate problem algae, right against the rock. I scraped the rock to get this sample.

The matting image is not that good, but if you look carefully you can see many many of these clear fibres. I wonder if these can be stained to improve the image.

The last slide I made was of the fragile top layer sucked up with a syringe, but it didnt show much apart from a sludge like material. I couldn't really focus on it, it seemed to have no structure (although it had lots of interesting stuff in it like helical coils which were 'screwing' themselves through the water). Pants replied to my email and said vid 3 was dino as suspected, but was not sure about the smaller cells. He did say he thinks they are the problem though. Although I was not clear on exactly which ones he meant so I have asked him again.

I sent him these photos below, so will see what he says about them. I still feel I have not got a good view of the bulk of the sludge though so will try again today.

[peterpion]

Sorry to triple post but I just remembered a bit of speculation I had. Seeing lots of organisims with these green cells in them, where the larger organisim seemed to be animal like (like the worm / slug in video 4), I wondered if these green cells are dino of some kind, inside larger organisims like zooanthelle live inside corals. Like nano sized corals. I read that some organisims 'eat' zooanthelle in order to incorporate them internally (rather than to digest them, to live on their secretions as they photosynthesise). I did see some worm like things eating the little green cells, and could see the cells inside some of them, although that could be for digesting.

Its complete uneducated speculation however. But if so, perhaps something triggers them to expel their zooanthelle. Or perhaps they secrete something to encourage growth of zooanthelle in the water. I was wondering if this might have anything to do with dino blooms. If the animals encourage the growth of the dinos, then presence of the animals might 'cause' dinos. I doubt it to be honest but the dino blooms seem hard to explain so its just another bit of speculation.

[davidfrances]

So, after battling dino's all summer, I nuked one of my 250G tanks. I bleached and acid washed my rock, replaced my sand bed, and ran the tank with a 10% bleach solution for a week. I then rinsed it twice with RODI, and added Prime on the third rinse to remove residual bleach.

I restarted the tank, and after the ammonia cycled, but before the nitrite fully cycled, the dino's returned.

They got really bad for about two weeks, and then disappeared overnight. Ironically, as soon as the nitrite fully cycled, I returned my fish to the tank, and the dino's disappeared in a couple of days.

I'm running GFO, GC, & biopellets. But it looks like I am in the clear for the time being:

New pics of the tank:

[jedimasterben]

Originally Posted by davidfrances

So, after battling dino's all summer, I nuked one of my 250G tanks. I bleached and acid washed my rock, replaced my sand bed, and ran the tank with a 10% bleach solution for a week. I then rinsed it twice with RODI, and added Prime on the third rinse to remove residual bleach.

I restarted the tank, and after the ammonia cycled, but before the nitrite fully cycled, the dino's returned.

They got really bad for about two weeks, and then disappeared overnight. Ironically, as soon as the nitrite fully cycled, I returned my fish to the tank, and the dino's disappeared in a couple of days.

I'm running GFO, GC, & biopellets. But it looks like I am in the clear for the time being:

New pics of the tank:

Do you know what species you have?

[Aquarist007]

Originally Posted by davidfrances

So, after battling dino's all summer, I nuked one of my 250G tanks. I bleached and acid washed my rock, replaced my sand bed, and ran the tank with a 10% bleach solution for a week. I then rinsed it twice with RODI, and added Prime on the third rinse to remove residual bleach.

I restarted the tank, and after the ammonia cycled, but before the nitrite fully cycled, the dino's returned.

They got really bad for about two weeks, and then disappeared overnight. Ironically, as soon as the nitrite fully cycled, I returned my fish to the tank, and the dino's disappeared in a couple of days.

I'm running GFO, GC, & biopellets. But it looks like I am in the clear for the time being:

New pics of the tank:

Congratulations on your success

[davidfrances]

Originally Posted by jedimasterben

Do you know what species you have?

The toxic brown slimy kind with the little bubbles.

[karimwassef]

I have a 5 month old 600g tank and battled hair algae for a couple of months (months 2 and 3). After eliminating them, toxic photosynthetic dinos took over (month 4) after a main pump failure that stopped all filtration for a week. I killed them off with high pH, phosphate removers, water changes, wet skimming, reduced feeding, a macro algae scrubber, and larger water changes. I was clean for a couple of weeks but they're back with a vengeance (not sure they died off).

A couple of questions:

1. What gives preferential environmental conditions for dinos vs. green hair or cyano or macroalgae?

2. What keeps them in check in the wild? Something eats them or something effectively competes for nutrients to starve them.

Clearly nature doesn't bleach itself to get rid of dinos- there must be a natural method that doesn't kill everything else.

[karimwassef]

No answers?

Ok. Let me expand on my case to see if other victims see similar trends.

I have a very very brightly lit tank with few corals relatively speaking. I have 3x400W MH with 200W UV + 200W RB LEDs and 50W "viewing white"
LEDs just intended to see, not really photo impacting.

I had a long photoperiod (8am to 1am) to maximize growth.

I have nearly no coralline.

I also have a pretty healthy pod population in my macroalgae scrubber/DSB fuge.

I have the scrubber on all night/day with a dark period from 2pm to 6pm.

I used to turn off my skimmer at night to allow my plankton population to grow. I also have no mechanical filtration anywhere.

Now... Based on my readings, here's what I think I understand correctly:

1. Dinos are basically zooxanthellae outside a coral host. (Most are). They use corals for protection.
2. In nature, they are consumed by planktonic predators (like pods)

In our tanks, we don't have the mass of naturally occurring plankton needed to keep them in check.

So... Why me?

Here is my theory:

I had a tank in a state of imbalance (being new). My few corals had been spewing out their zooxanthellae in response to my intense lighting. There were lots of pitchers, but no catchers. In my hair algae, they found competition for nutrients and a base for predators that was always within reach of them.

I set upon a hyper aggressive path to eliminate my GHA and in the process removed competition and predation.

The predators only hunt at night. My super long photo periods were forcing them into hiding and giving the dinos free reign. Even a little light keeps the pods hiding (which explains the extreme darkness some have had to create). I was using my viewing lights frequently to see what's going on in the dark. Even a little light sends my pods scurrying to hide from my fish army.

The toxicity to snails is clear, but my urchins, fish, and small crabs keep munching away on them daily. The first victim was my 5" seahare. Why? Another theory- the more and faster you eat, the more toxins are released. Maybe fast moving predators like fish can eat fast, but also get away fast... Millions of small fast predators can decimate them, but one massive slow predator triggers the toxin death.

The answer?: they exist because my conditions were favorable for corals, but there weren't enough corals- now the inmates have the run of the place. Either I create conditions where the predators have the upper hand or I create more places to lock them up. Changing conditions to be less favorable will hurt my corals to the same degree. For the same reason, water changes don't do much unless you physically scrub them off and remove them.

Very short photoperiod for an extended time (weeks?). Maybe even using cutouts to keep the light only on my corals (seems nuts, I know). Increase the pod population substantially (10,000)? Cut down nighttime skimming again to allow the population of predatory plankton to catch up. Add filter socks only when scrubbing? What else can we think of??

I realize both theories and solution seem out of left field, but after reading for weeks, I think we've been looking at this all wrong and need a different strategy here. This is not GHA.

If you have this problem, see if any of my pattern applies to your case. Help prove or refute my theories? And maybe help with a strategy that attacks them with this new basis in mind?

[karimwassef]

One datapoint that may validate my theory is that tanks with heavy coralline growth should be able to fight them off better? The idea is that they compete for real estate and nutrients.

To state my theory more simply: Dinoflagellates are present in all healthy reefs, the population explosion outside coral tissue is the result of an abundance of energy and nutrients and a lack of predation. The solution is to rebalance energy sources and predation.

[karimwassef]

One more datapoint. Between the time of the removal of my GHA infestation and the onset of my dinos, I noticed an abundance of planaria (especially in my refugium). They never reached epidemic levels, but it's a datapoint I haven't fit into the timeline yet. They have gone back to being a minority.

[DNA]

On your original two questions.

1. Nutrition.
Currents bring in nutrition from the deep and there is a bloom that eventually dies off and something else blooms.
The sun is also a source of nutrition for them in the top most layers of the ocean.

2. Dinos are very important part of the food chain and loads of species eat them.
Since there are around 2000 species of dinos I'd expect their predator species to be just as numerous.

There are no answers to most of our questions due to lack of research.
We can speculate on endless theories but without research and tests we'll get nowhere.

Your skimming by day is worthy to try out, but you forfeit the best time by far since the night is their time in the water column.

[karimwassef]

Thanks. There's no research but using a community, we can collect data across multiple blooms.

How does your experience compare to mine? Is there a pattern in common? Does your experience refute my theory?

[cal_stir]

I have been battling for 6 months now and my problem began shortly after an aggressive battle with bubble algae in which I used algaeX, I believe the algaeX decimated my micro fauna and caused a couple corals to release their zooxanthellae and gave rise to the dinos, I as well I was aggressive with lowering po4 and no3 to undetectable levels which also helped give the dinos the edge, I also found that water changes fueled them, I identified my dino species as ostreopsis with a microscope.
I began a regiment of removal where I blew the rocks and corals off daily using 100uM socks on my drains to catch as much as I could, I stopped doing water changes and aggressively vacuumed the sand bed by vacuuming into a pail and with a MJ1200 pumped the water through a BRS reactor with a 5uM sediment filter, between vacs I ran the filter in my sump to keep it fresh and changed the filter every few days. I have also let my po4 rise to .03ppm and my no3 to 2ppm, and have been replenishing the critters. This got me to where I have a light dusting of dinos showing up on a few spots on my sand bed with virtually none on the rocks or corals.
I set up a UV sterilizer, raised alk to 11dkh, skim wet and heavy, did 3 days lights out aggressively blowing, vacuuming and filtering and dosing H2O2 @ 1ml/10gals and this is DAY1 post treatment and NO dinos, fingers crossed for DAY2.

[karimwassef]

Wow. That's great. The only thing I'm not doing is dosing peroxide.

So, you agree with my theory? Any gaps?

[IUfan]

Cal-stir
I have been battling for 6 months now and my problem began shortly after an aggressive battle with bubble algae in which I used algaeX, I believe the algaeX decimated my micro fauna and caused a couple corals to release their zooxanthellae and gave rise to the dinos, I as well I was aggressive with lowering po4 and no3 to undetectable levels which also helped give the dinos the edge, I also found that water changes fueled them, I identified my dino species as ostreopsis with a microscope.

Similar thing happened here, used Ich-X, mass overnight bleaching and been battling SPS health and dinos ever since.

Just in the past 2 weeks starting to see a lot less dinos. I added some semi-cured Rock, that definitely added some Po4 No3 which I think may have allowed other algeas to rise up. Which my fish don't mind as they can eat those types. I also have found a big reason for the health issues with my SPS so they are now looking healthier and retaining the zoos. Also like you brought my calcium reactor on board and now ALK is up to 11.

[IUfan]

Good write up Karim. Agree with most of the things you say. It would be interesting to see how many Dino onsets started shortly after a bleaching event.

8AM to 1 AM photoperiod seems rather aggressive, no expert, but I'm sure I've read that too long of a photoperiod is a bad thing?

[karimwassef]

It is. I'm down to 6hrs now... Before my second dino attack.

So that's a good trend of similar precursors to the blooms.

[karimwassef]

Do either of you have an established thick coralline growth?
Do you have a lot of exposed rock to coral area ratio?

[cal_stir]

I have lots of established coraline algae and lots of exposed rock, I also have a lot of rock in my sump which is not lit.

DAY 2 and still no sign of the menace, fingers crossed for DAY 3

[karimwassef]

Do the dinos grow over the coralline?

[cal_stir]

Yes, they will grow over everything if given the chance, luckily they don't really attach and can be blown off pretty easily with a turkey baster.

[karimwassef]

Do you have the toxic kind?