LaCl Reactor

[JSimpson]

Thanks for all the info posted here. I've been tossing around the idea of doing something similar on my 90gallon. I am thinking about dripping the diluted LC into the intake of a MJ400 that feeds into a TLF-150 reactor (with or without floss), and then putting the output of the reactor into a 10micron filter sock. Seems like the floss in the reactor might be an improvement over my original thought of an empty reactor used only as a mixing chamber. I'll be tagging along trying to learn here.

[insomniac2k2]

No problem. I really like the results that I am seeing with this way for Phosphate export. It sill may need tweaks here and there, but I think this method is certainly on the right track!

Moderation is key IMO.

If you were going to feed the reactor to anything, you may want to consider your skimmer. Then if possible, you can have your skimmer outflow into the filter sock.

If I felt that I needed further precip capture, then that's what I would do. Although at this point, I do not feel it to be necessary.

I believe that the true risk is not the bonded phosphates escaping into your water column, but rather the un-reacted LaCl3.

It's my goal to avoid overdosage at all times. I never want to see my phosphates close to undetectable.

[BeanAnimal]

Originally Posted by insomniac2k2

Being that I do not like to make too many assumptions, can you confirm with me what version of LaCl3 you were using (brand and dilution). Can you also let me know what your water volume was at the time of testing?

I was using the full strength SeaKlear product sold at pool supply stores (I purchased it from a local pool supply).

At the time my total system volume was likely between 100 -125 gallons. 75g Display - rock/sand = maybe 70g
~8g skimmer
~30g at sump operating level.

Phosphates were as high as 1ppm (no kidding) and dosing took them down as low as .04 ppm. I never dosed more than 2ml a day (that I can remember) and those loarge doses were in the begining and reduced as po4 came down. As I mentioned on my site, when I stopped dosing, po4 would QUICKLY (a day or three) rise right back up to .8 or so. In an attempt to avoid the large doses and large swings, I started dosing much smaller doses (.1ml at a time) several times a day when I walked past the tank. Phosphate hovered between .1 and .08 for most of that time and that is when the Tang started to look bad, and eventually (after a dosing break maybe two weeks) died.

To be clear: I did not dilute the lanthanum chloride before dosing into the skimmer. I had intentioned of dosing the 1ml (or less) over 24hour period by mixing it with the top off water (fed into the magnum/skimmer/sock setup) but never got around to it by the time the Tang died. I stopped dosing and focused on a change in methodology.



Replacement of Lacl3 with other methods:

• removed a LOT of old rock (phosphate saturated?)
• tried Brightwell xport croutons (mixed results)
• discharge ALL drains into 10 micron sock and blow off all rocks and sump with large power head. Did this daily for weeks.
• elevate rock on sump to prevent detritus trap
• vacuum shallow sand bed in tank
• cut back on feeding --- WAY back
• replace dump style ATS with waterfall style (just recently)

Through the life of the tank I NEVER had GHA (2004 or so startup). When I stopped the lanthanum chloride, I had a terrible GHA outbreak... I mean terrible!!! It has lasted nearly 9 months and I have rode it out doing the mechanical removal, less feeding thing. It was growing FROM all of the old rock in my system. It is now only growing from a few spots and my water column reads close to 0 phosphate daily. So it looks like I have finally managed to rid the rock of saturated phosphate. The new scrubber (built from parts provided by Floyd R. Turbo) is starting to kick in and I hope it maintains levels for me.

Do I think the LaCl3 is viable? Not sure. It certainly helped to export piles of brown phosphate slime but I managed to kill a fish with it (at least basic evidence points to that). So short term it was great. Long term, I am not sure and may have pushed the envelope with my dosing methodology. Joe Yaiullo doses a rather small amount through a hage sand filter and (last I checked) had not reported adverse effects. Your methodology may be promising.

[JSimpson]

Originally Posted by insomniac2k2

So far, I have noticed next to no ALK drop in my tank. BUT, I do vinegar/KALK dose through a stirrer, fed by my ATO.

This was posted about a month ago. Curious if you have noted any drop in ALK since then?

[iced98lx]

wondering out loud if a canister filter with a lot of floss would be a suitable place to dose into and catch the precipitate..

[insomniac2k2]

Checked my levels 2 weeks ago. No change. I will check again tonight.

Originally Posted by JSimpson

This was posted about a month ago. Curious if you have noted any drop in ALK since then?

[insomniac2k2]

I would imagine that this would be similar to using a reactor. Although I do feel that you would want to agitate/mix the LaCl3 with as much water as possible before it gets to the floss. This is why I still keep my first reactor in play.

Im certainly not sure that it is necessary, but it works so well as it is, im not about to change it.

Originally Posted by iced98lx

wondering out loud if a canister filter with a lot of floss would be a suitable place to dose into and catch the precipitate..

[insomniac2k2]

Thanks for the reply. You definitely had a whole lot of phosphates! I wonder if it also had something to do with the very large and rapid reduction that you were making? I recall reading something about adverse affects on livestock from a large phosphate reduction. Something like, .1 change. I'll have to go search around and see If I can find it.

In any case, this information is very important. I will definitely keep a close eye on my tank and post any feedback or findings along the way.

Originally Posted by BeanAnimal

I was using the full strength SeaKlear product sold at pool supply stores (I purchased it from a local pool supply).

At the time my total system volume was likely between 100 -125 gallons. 75g Display - rock/sand = maybe 70g
~8g skimmer
~30g at sump operating level.

Phosphates were as high as 1ppm (no kidding) and dosing took them down as low as .04 ppm. I never dosed more than 2ml a day (that I can remember) and those loarge doses were in the begining and reduced as po4 came down. As I mentioned on my site, when I stopped dosing, po4 would QUICKLY (a day or three) rise right back up to .8 or so. In an attempt to avoid the large doses and large swings, I started dosing much smaller doses (.1ml at a time) several times a day when I walked past the tank. Phosphate hovered between .1 and .08 for most of that time and that is when the Tang started to look bad, and eventually (after a dosing break maybe two weeks) died.

To be clear: I did not dilute the lanthanum chloride before dosing into the skimmer. I had intentioned of dosing the 1ml (or less) over 24hour period by mixing it with the top off water (fed into the magnum/skimmer/sock setup) but never got around to it by the time the Tang died. I stopped dosing and focused on a change in methodology.



Replacement of Lacl3 with other methods:

• removed a LOT of old rock (phosphate saturated?)
• tried Brightwell xport croutons (mixed results)
• discharge ALL drains into 10 micron sock and blow off all rocks and sump with large power head. Did this daily for weeks.
• elevate rock on sump to prevent detritus trap
• vacuum shallow sand bed in tank
• cut back on feeding --- WAY back
• replace dump style ATS with waterfall style (just recently)

Through the life of the tank I NEVER had GHA (2004 or so startup). When I stopped the lanthanum chloride, I had a terrible GHA outbreak... I mean terrible!!! It has lasted nearly 9 months and I have rode it out doing the mechanical removal, less feeding thing. It was growing FROM all of the old rock in my system. It is now only growing from a few spots and my water column reads close to 0 phosphate daily. So it looks like I have finally managed to rid the rock of saturated phosphate. The new scrubber (built from parts provided by Floyd R. Turbo) is starting to kick in and I hope it maintains levels for me.

Do I think the LaCl3 is viable? Not sure. It certainly helped to export piles of brown phosphate slime but I managed to kill a fish with it (at least basic evidence points to that). So short term it was great. Long term, I am not sure and may have pushed the envelope with my dosing methodology. Joe Yaiullo doses a rather small amount through a hage sand filter and (last I checked) had not reported adverse effects. Your methodology may be promising.

[BeanAnimal]

Originally Posted by JSimpson

This was posted about a month ago. Curious if you have noted any drop in ALK since then?

As a matter of chemistry... yes it will drop ALK. You will simply have to adjust your dosing to compensate. My MAG got all out of whack for a short period during the process, but I really can't say why. I was not at all concerned with anything but phosphate. To that end (and even recently) I did not dose ANY calcium or alkalinity and simply let the levels drop for months. Growth slowed to a halt, but my concern was cleaning up the mess, not growing coral.

[BeanAnimal]

Originally Posted by iced98lx

wondering out loud if a canister filter with a lot of floss would be a suitable place to dose into and catch the precipitate..

That was what I did, pre-skimmer and 10 micron sock. I would not fathom doing any less, though another club member was just dumping it (500g system) into the sump a capful at a time and letting the resulting cloud "settle".

[iced98lx]

Originally Posted by BeanAnimal

That was what I did, pre-skimmer and 10 micron sock. I would not fathom doing any less, though another club member was just dumping it (500g system) into the sump a capful at a time and letting the resulting cloud "settle".

Interesting. Your loss concerns me greatly. I'll be spending extra time treating my rock prior to introduction into the system to rid myself of as much bound phosphate as I can.

[BeanAnimal]

Originally Posted by insomniac2k2

Thanks for the reply. You definitely had a whole lot of phosphates! I wonder if it also had something to do with the very large and rapid reduction that you were making?

Yes, a lot of variables. Though I am fairly comfortable in my conclusions. The initial dosing and large drops did not appear to have negative effects (though they could have been latent). It was the later, smaller sustained dosing in an attempt to keep the levels down (some months after the intial large swings) that appeared to take the toll.

[insomniac2k2]

I've been treating a 35g tub this way in preparation for a larger tank. If you have the time and footprint to do this, it just doesn't make any sense not to.

Originally Posted by iced98lx

Interesting. Your loss concerns me greatly. I'll be spending extra time treating my rock prior to introduction into the system to rid myself of as much bound phosphate as I can.

[iced98lx]

Originally Posted by insomniac2k2

I've been treating a 35g tub this way in preparation for a larger tank. If you have the time and footprint to do this, it just doesn't make any sense not to.

Yea pre-treating prior to system setup was always the plan, but I'm always interested in ways of taking care of phosphate, I've found them to be a problem no matter how little is in my rock. I am acid dipping and pre-treating with LaCl and i have plenty of time to do it outside of a running system.

[BeanAnimal]

I am not sure what I stand on that whole matter.... Part of me wants to blame the dry base rock I used to set the system up with but I did not have known issues (I never tested for phosphate) for maybe 5-6 years when things went to crap...

Then again, my feeding was not what we would consider even close to being moderate, and for a time of maybe 2 years I pretty much neglected ALL maintenance because everything was thriving. So did I plant the ticking time bomb with the dry base rock, or build it over time? Who knows, maybe both.

[Heliman]

I made a reactor similar to Insomniac, used a very diluted (50 to 1) solution that I fed through a dosing pump at 5 cc's per/hour. My reaction chamber was 20 inches deep and the flow rate was about 250 litres/hour.

I saw PO4 drop slowly over 3 weeks from 22 PPB (Hanna Ultral low test) to 9 PPB. Once I got to this point of vanishingly low PO4 I began to notice some adverse effects on fish and coral. I dont think it was the low PO4 that did this, because I can easily achieve this level with GFO with no visible adverse effects.

But I suspect that even at my low dose rates, with very little PO4 to get rid of, there was some free LaCl2 getting past the filter wool and into the Tank, whereas any La PO4 precipitate was getting removed.

I am now modifying my reactor to incorporate a second chamber with will be 50/50 filter wool and GAC, hopefully will capture any free La Cl2 in the Carbon.

Also, I will experiment with dose rates to see what dilution I need to maintain just enough LaCl2 going into the system to maintain a low PO4, but minimalising the potential for free La Cl2 to cross over into the DT

I think the La Cl2 method of PO4 removal has a lot of promise, but there is a way to go before it is foolproof !!

[insomniac2k2]

From my experience thus far, I believe that your dose was very high. To make the comparison to my dosage and dose rate:

I use CR version. If I compare my dosage to yours. I dose at 570 to 1 @ 5ML/CC an hour.

At that rate, and your already low phosphate level, you definitely flooded a lot of LaCl3 into your tank.

If you read up on my posts, you will see that I have a second stage that im using compacted ROX carbon. At first I didnt think I like it. But now I find it to be polishing my tank well. I also see much darker filter floss now.

On a side note. I decided to do a little experiment. When my tank got to .07 PPM, I decided to stop administering LaCl3 for 3 days, and keep my flow through my reactor. I noticed no change in filter floss coloring, but after 3 days, my phosphates rose almost exactly what I anticipated they would. I had calculated that my maintenance dose would keep my levels @ or very near .07. Double my maintenance dose, made my phosphates drop .01 every 2 days.

My new phosphate level is .11 . I'm now resuming my maintenance dose to see if i can keep that number where it is at. I will check in 3 days. I've posted it a bit back, but my maintenance dose is about 2.5 CC/ML an hour at the same dilution rate of around 570 to 1 -or- 20ML of CR version(66% dilute) per gallon.

[insomniac2k2]

I also just checked my alkalinity. I have to disclaim that I am knowingly skewing my results due to adding a healthy amount of vinegar to my kalk stirrer (in a similar fashion to how im doing LC).

My ALK is actually going up gradually since adding vinegar direct into my reactor, due to the extra kalk saturation. I have no metric to tell if my DKH is slowing due to LC more than otherwise. The only thing that I can say is that I have always been near 11dkh. Im presently 11.2 (which I might add is supposed to be a no-no when carbon dosing, according to some).

For now, I feel that as long as I control my dose rate as I am now, I will not see a loss in alkalinity like others have seen.

[Heliman]

Yep...it appears that my dilution was way off. I will continue to experiment and drop down to something near your 500 ish :1.

At my original dilution I calculated that I was putting 2.4 cc per day of La Cl2 through the reactor, which I felt would not present an issue in my 1000 litere system (represents an addition of 2.4 PPM,) as this amount should be fully reacted...but maybe I was somewhat optimistic and some free La Cl2 was getting through..

Next step for me is to finish construction of the stage 2 reactor (using filter wool and GAC same as you and try again with much lower dilution.

I have my own views that I want to target a much lower Po4 level than you, I am after less than 5 PPB (or 0.015 PPM)...that's a matter of individual choice

BTW, in 3 weeks of dosing La Cl2 I did not notice any change in KH, then again, I keep my DT at 7.6 to 8.0 which is identical to the NSW that I use for W/C. There may be more effect at higher KH levels ??

[insomniac2k2]

260g is certainly a lot more water volume than what I have, but my gut tells me that the dosage is definitely going to be the most important factor. I would imagine that if you go with that 500 to 1 dosage @ say 10cc an hour would probably be a great start. Especially if you can spread it out in the smallest possible doses. I believe you said you are dripping?

May I ask why you would possibly want to be that low? I would fear that the LaCl3 wouldn't effectively find the free phosphates in the reactor with such low levels.

[terri_ann]

Insomniac,

I have a couple questions if I may. I believe my DT has about 120g TWV. To confirm, you are using SeaClear "CR"? You mix 1ml SeaClear CR into 190ml RO/DI?

I'd love to set my dosing up like yours with the reactors but this isn't possible for me I plan to dose via my overflow into a 5 micron filter sock which is located in my skimmer section. Also, I am going to try to use a 5 micron sock at the skimmer output to catch any LaC13 which may not be skimmed out(haven't yet figured it out but I'm confident that I can). Do you have any suggestions?

[Heliman]

Originally Posted by insomniac2k2

260g is certainly a lot more water volume than what I have, but my gut tells me that the dosage is definitely going to be the most important factor. I would imagine that if you go with that 500 to 1 dosage @ say 10cc an hour would probably be a great start. Especially if you can spread it out in the smallest possible doses. I believe you said you are dripping?

May I ask why you would possibly want to be that low? I would fear that the LaCl3 wouldn't effectively find the free phosphates in the reactor with such low levels.

The product I use which is available locally has 150 ml per litre LaCl2...15%, your soloution therefore is about 4 times as concentrated, so I will change to a dilution of 1 in 125 of mine. I use a dosing pump set to dose each hour and I will work out what the individual dose should be and take it from there....probably will go to about 100 ml /day and see how it goes....that's about 15 PPB of La dosed per day.

I recognise your concern with low,low levels of PO4 not being scavenged effectively, that is why I used a long reactor and a modest flow rate, so as to get the dwell time as high as possible.

I chase ultra low levels because there is no PO4 or nitrates detectable in my NSW...and that's where my corals live !!! I definitely see much improved PE and colour with these ultra low levels...but then again, it's a personal choice

[insomniac2k2]

Yes I use cr. 190ml to 1 is correct. This also translates to 20ml LaCl3 "cr" to 1g RODI.

I'm not sure that I would do it this way, but there is probably a lot of good resources at Gary's thread.

In short, I do not believe that the excess LaCl3 will be caught by the filter sock. I believe that the only time that anything can be mechanically filtered out is after phosphates are bound. This is the key reason that I dump mine direct into my skimmer even after my double reactor with floss and carbon. And I mean direct. My skimmer has the highest concentration of accumulated junk in my tank. I believe that if anything is going to pick up the excess LaCl3, this is the place. This is why it is so important to have a very controlled contact area.

I believe that Boomer gave some specifics on micron size in the LC thread. If you haven't read up on that already, you may want to check it out.

Originally Posted by terri_ann

Insomniac,

I have a couple questions if I may. I believe my DT has about 120g TWV. To confirm, you are using SeaClear "CR"? You mix 1ml SeaClear CR into 190ml RO/DI?

I'd love to set my dosing up like yours with the reactors but this isn't possible for me I plan to dose via my overflow into a 5 micron filter sock which is located in my skimmer section. Also, I am going to try to use a 5 micron sock at the skimmer output to catch any LaC13 which may not be skimmed out(haven't yet figured it out but I'm confident that I can). Do you have any suggestions?

[insomniac2k2]

Have you read the sheet to insure that there is no other substances in the concentrate? I have read where others have tried other brands and have had a very bad experience, do to it having other stuff in the mixture (like anti-algae chemicals, etc).

I would hate for that to happen to you.

Originally Posted by Heliman

The product I use which is available locally has 150 ml per litre LaCl2...15%, your soloution therefore is about 4 times as concentrated, so I will change to a dilution of 1 in 125 of mine. I use a dosing pump set to dose each hour and I will work out what the individual dose should be and take it from there....probably will go to about 100 ml /day and see how it goes....that's about 15 PPB of La dosed per day.

I recognise your concern with low,low levels of PO4 not being scavenged effectively, that is why I used a long reactor and a modest flow rate, so as to get the dwell time as high as possible.

I chase ultra low levels because there is no PO4 or nitrates detectable in my NSW...and that's where my corals live !!! I definitely see much improved PE and colour with these ultra low levels...but then again, it's a personal choice

[terri_ann]

Originally Posted by insomniac2k2

Yes I use cr. 190ml to 1 is correct. This also translates to 20ml LaCl3 "cr" to 1g RODI.

I'm not sure that I would do it this way, but there is probably a lot of good resources at Gary's thread.

In short, I do not believe that the excess LaCl3 will be caught by the filter sock. I believe that the only time that anything can be mechanically filtered out is after phosphates are bound. This is the key reason that I dump mine direct into my skimmer even after my double reactor with floss and carbon. And I mean direct. My skimmer has the highest concentration of accumulated junk in my tank. I believe that if anything is going to pick up the excess LaCl3, this is the place. This is why it is so important to have a very controlled contact area.

I believe that Boomer gave some specifics on micron size in the LC thread. If you haven't read up on that already, you may want to check it out.

Thanks so much for the confirmation and additional information I will again check Gary's thread and do a post there to see if Gary has any additional thoughts/suggestions. I will also about Boomer's micron size...I had seen 5 micron as well as 10 so I hope the 5 will work, and well.

I hope that manufacturers are considering a similar or your design as it sure would help us female non-DIYer's. Thanks again!!