Casper's health is declining - Page 2

melev · 02/11/2006, 10:31 PM

Thanks. She ate a few mysis that I dropped near her tonight.

I just reviewed this thread, but maybe I missed it. Any idea what caused this in the first place? How long will treatment typically last? How often should water changes be done (1g, daily)? Am I adding another capsule of Furan II daily, as recommended on the package?

NanoLurker · 02/12/2006, 12:23 AM

i've never used that med so i'm not sure how long the full course of treatment is or the recommended WCs before redosing. i've used neo3 and neomycin/triple sulfa purchased from NFP and they're 10 day courses, 50% WC daily. the other antibiotics i've used have also been 10 days. no matter what, a full course is required, no stopping short because you see improvement.

sorry - rigid airline or airstone both work, i sometimes will run one of each and my horses tend to prefer the airstone, kind of like little bubble massages.

i keep at least a 5 gallon bucket of new water brewing at all times when they're in QT. it helps to have prepared clean water ready if needed. it can be stressful treating this guys and the last thing you need is to be frantically mixing and trying to match parameters. ammonia can be a problem because there's no biofilter so watch out for that, another reason to have matched water ready.

it's good that she ate something, that is one of the keys to treatment.

your plant looks like one i have in my QT tank now

. i also have a piece of clear acrylic tubing (about 1" diameter, feeding tube kind) attached to the back with a spare heater holder. anything that's easily cleaned and they can hitch to comfortably is good.

hard to say why it happened. when did the first symptoms appear? was it immediately after you added the second female (she's pretty)? or did she have symptoms prior to the new addition (suppressed appetite, tail beginning to change color, etc.). as panmanmatt said the other horse could be an asymptomatic carrier. could just be she's always had it and for whatever reason it popped up (stress, temp, ammonia spike, injury to the tail).

melev · 02/12/2006, 01:00 AM

I'd say this started up about a week ago. The new seahorse was added about 3 days ago, I think.

It's hard to imagine one tiny seahorse in a 10g tank creating ammonia especially if it isn't eating much. The good news is I have 5g of premixed water ready to go, and I'm filling up my 55g drum right now so that by noon I can add salt and get that mixing well.

I'll read the instructions on the package again. Odds are my LFS can get the other medication if I ask for it, but I have a feeling switching meds may not be ideal. Maybe I should stick to one treatment until it has concluded.

The tank is 70.8 right now. The small heater I have for this tank (50w, I believe - it's old) doesn't turn off at its lowest setting, so I'm guessing its low point is 71 or 72 perhaps. I didn't want the tank to get too cold tonight as my house is 68-69F, and the 300w heater seems like a disaster in the making even though it has a lower set point marked on it.

I'll see about adding a few more hitching items tomorrow. She's sleeping right now.

NanoLurker · 02/12/2006, 01:32 AM

you would be amazed at how quickly ammonia can jump when treating them. doesn't seem like it could but combine antibiotics that are hopefully killing bacteria, food, and waste and it can pop up to .25 quickly. i never truly appreciated my tanks biofilter until i started keeping horses again.

if symptoms started a week before the new addition then it's doubtful she introduced something new.

generally, you don't want to switch treatments mid-stream, so to speak. let's see how she's doing with what you have on hand. if it wasn't saturday i could send you additional meds (neo3) as a backup. i will e-mail you tomorrow though as there are a couple of items you should have on hand with these guys. oh, i forgot, there is a liquid form of neomycin available at most feed stores - it's called Biosol and has been used by a number of seahorse keepers in conjunction with triple sulfa.

i try to keep them as comfortable as possible and offer them a couple of different hitches, nothing too fancy. a thicker one like the large tube, i have even used just a piece of prefilter (the kind of perforated/waffley looking stuff), the rigid airline tubing, a plant or fake coral. nothing you're too attached to it just gives them someplace to move to and hang for a bit.

go to sleep now like casper

melev · 02/12/2006, 01:35 AM

That is good to know. Thanks.

DanU · 02/12/2006, 06:21 AM

You will probably never know the exact etiology of the disease or which bacteria this is. There is still a lot to be learned with seahorses and many of the fish diseases. One thing that seems to help, particularly with tail rot, is cooler temperatures. There seems to be much less incidence at the lower temps of 74 or lower. Doesn't totally eliminate it, but seems to reduce the amount of incidences.

I would keep an eye on the temperatures of the hospital tank but would not be afraid of the temps as low as 68. I have kept reidi at 68 - 69 degrees for the duration of winter last year without issue. They were still breeding at those temperatures.

If you keep a real close eye on the ammonia, you may not have to do a 50% water change. We usually recommend it as not everyone does this well and any rise in ammonia will be a stressor and we want to remove as many stressors as possible. You can also use a little Cloram-X, Amquel + or Prime.

The label on Furan 2 is for a 4 day treatment. At the end of this you will need to re-evaluate. If you see improvement, you can do another course of this or do a 100% water change and go with the Neomycin/Triple Sulpha combination. Triple sulpha is generally available at many LFS. Most that carry Neomycin is way underdosed. Biosol as mention is a liquid form of Neomycin and is available at many farm supply stores or they may have the generic version. If you should get this, go ahead and pick up a syringe, 3 cc or 6 cc for dosing. The Neo3 as mentioned is is a complete round of Neomycin and Sulpha drugs in a convenient package with instructions.

Dan

melev · 02/12/2006, 09:47 AM

Thanks Dan. The temperature is 71.1 in the tank right now, and the heater is off. Casper is near the base of the plastic plant, and a few hours ago she was hugging it while she slept.

Do you know of anyone that is keeping zoanthids and dendrophyllia (looks like giant suncoral polyps) at 74F? I've been keeping this seahorse in a small reef-like environment and a higher temperature than that for the past 7 months.

panmanmatt · 02/12/2006, 11:05 AM

Marc,

I keep zoas at 72-74 in my seahorse tanks. No experience with the dendro (yet).

LisaD · 02/12/2006, 11:40 AM

Marc,

I just noticed this thread. Sorry about the problems you are having with Casper. Matt and Dan gave you good advice. The only thing I would add is that sometimes lowering sg can help, both to inhibit bacteria and give the seahorse some relief.

I had a case once where a male ingens had an extremely swollen tail as well as some internal bubbles (under the skin). I treated with a combination of neomycin and triple sulfa as well as Diamox. It took a few weeks but it cleared up completely. I don't know if Diamox would be indicated in this case, just thought I'd mention it. This seahorse was so bad off at the time, it only ate if offered frozen mysis on a bamboo skewer feeding stick!

If you need some meds, send me a PM. I have a pretty well stocked medicine cabinet and could send you something if you need it Monday. I have both Neomycin and Triple Sulfa as well as quite a few other meds...

I know Casper did fine in his tank for quite a while. However, IME, seahorses do better long term in larger tanks with horizontal as well as vertical space, and a choice of lower and higher flow rates to swim in. Also, I'm not positive, but that second seahorse looks more like a kuda than a reidi to me.

Good luck! I hope he makes a complete recovery. I think you have acted quickly enough that he stands a decent chance.

melev · 02/12/2006, 12:52 PM

Hi Lisa,

I appreciate the offer to mail me meds for Casper. I'm hoping I can just pick it up locally from the LFS to not put you or anyone else out, plus that avoids further delays waiting on the mail to arrive.

I've been planning for some time to build Casper a newer tank, and it will be really nice with more vertical room. I've been planning it for some time now, but have been too busy to to build it.

With that one sick seahorse, you combined quite a few medications at the same time. I didn't know you could do that. How did you know that you needed all three, and that you could mix them all in the same hospital tank? Or did you use one medication at a time, working from treatment to treatment?

Kuda? Darn. I was trying to get a male reidi for Casper to court with.

I just checked on Casper. She's at the bottom of the tank, and she was hardly breathing while I watched for a steady 30 seconds. Then she started breathing more quickly a few times. I think she was holding her breath to mess with my head.

Tank temp 71.3F
Salinity 1.0245
pH 7.95

There is no light over the hospital tank to increase pH during the daytime. I can lower the salinity via the water changes if necessary. What would be the target salinity to aim for?

panmanmatt · 02/12/2006, 01:04 PM

Usual reccomendation for salinity 1.011 mesaured with a refractometer or salinity probe. Dropping the salinity can be done in one shot instead of gradually. The osmotic shock is what you are looking for. It will not harm the hores.

Brining the salinity back up is another story. It should be done gradually over about 2 weeks time.

NanoLurker · 02/12/2006, 01:20 PM

the neomycin and triple sulfa are pretty much always dosed together, as dan said, they have a synergistic effect. diamox (acetazolamide) is usually added if the seahorse has any edema, fluid retention, caused by the infection. you'd know if that happens because she may appear bloated and have problems swimming (negative bouyancy). diamox it is a carbonic anhydrase inhibitor and is commonly used to treat glaucoma in humans. i've used all three together myself a couple of times, no problems.

do you think he should drop the salinity that low? i know it's usually recommended for parasites and some meds but i'm not sure if he should go that low in this case. i'm a little reluctant to do that if there's any potential for open wounds. JMO though.

melev · 02/12/2006, 01:43 PM

That is really low. I know I'm trying to help her, but I have to imagine she's weak, and now stressed from the move. I have a hard time believing I can do all of this and not end up killing her in the process.

LisaD · 02/12/2006, 01:54 PM

The three meds (neomycin, sulfa drugs and diamox) can and have been used together numerous times by many keepers. They don't seem to have negative interactions. Diamox also has some antibiotic properties. I don't think I'd go as low as 1.011 on sg, but I'd consider going down to 1.015-1.018.

If you want to go with less intervention, I'd recommend the neomycin/sulfa combination, lower temperature (as you have done) and slightly lowered sg, to about 1.018.

Where she is right now is pretty critical - she will either make it or not in the next couple days. I understand your not wanting to stress her any more than necessary. FWIW, I have found that quick and aggressive treatment in these kinds of cases is very important. Good luck, I know you are doing all you can for her.

If you decide you want me to send meds, I can send them by FedEx overnight delivery on Monday. I am allowed to use my work's FedEx discounts for personal shipments, so the cost would be pretty reasonable for a small package.

Good luck!

melev · 02/12/2006, 02:06 PM

Thanks Lisa. I'll see if I can get any of these meds tomorrow morning, and if not, I'll send you a message in this thread and via PM.

Swanwillow · 02/12/2006, 03:58 PM

I know that this may be a little OT, but I believe that it relates...

your seahorses seem, well, kinda small for your having her for 6 months... unless your zoanthids are HUGE compared to normal ones. maybe there is/are some underlying issues with her? the new one you got looks pretty darn skinny too, but I'll blame that on whomever had it before you... while you have the one in QT, and the other not, you may want to up the feeding amount... my reidi/kuda things eat about 7 mysis AT LEAST per feeding... thats alot of food, but they WERE similarily sized about a month ago to yours, and were eating about the same amount, maybe one less. and thats 2 feedings a day... 14 full sized PE mysis a day (times three for mine-two for yours, so at least 28 mysis a day for two horses that are growing)

wow-I never did the math before, but in a reef tank, normal people would freak out at the huge bioload that creates. HA.. sorry, going OT even farther. I'm just worried that they are both a little skinny: the one almost emaciated looking (your new one) causing stress upon the horse, and therefore=vibro incfection (on top of being in a small-ish hight tank)

just IMO-not trying to be mean, just trying to give some ideas as to why vibro would break out suddenly...

melev · 02/12/2006, 07:02 PM

I appreciate your input. I'm well-known for heavy feeding, and when I do feed I turn off the filter to keep the food in the tank. I do huge water changes and still have PO4 issues in the tank due to the excess food.

I agree, the new horse looked very very thin, but hopefully it will plump up. I have fed twice a day in the past, but Casper was enjoying her meal simply once a day around 9pm. I use Hikari mysis, and I couldn't count how many go in the tank. Its a decent amount.

Some of those zoos are the large polyped version, while others are tiny.

The new tank will be much more spacious, which will help with water quality.

nickiwit · 02/12/2006, 07:47 PM

Marc, I have neo3 and diamox if you need it. I just ask that you replace the neo3 for me when you get a chance.

melev · 02/12/2006, 08:26 PM

And you are a little more local. Thanks Nicki. I'll see if the LFS has any in the morning.

Swanwillow · 02/13/2006, 07:53 AM

ok-just making sure, ya know!!!!

melev · 02/13/2006, 02:25 PM

I just got off the phone with the LFS to see if he can get any of the meds listed in this thread. If he can't, I'll contact LisaD for the overnight. Nicki, I appreciate the offer but the drive to Allen and back would probably cost as much in gas (and I don't have the time today) as the overnight fees.

I did a 5g water change last night, and added another capsule of Furan II. Casper ate some mysis, and has been moving around the tank some as she desires.

During the water change, I carefully sucked out anything on the bottom of the tank (uneaten food or waste), and right at the end as I was trying to stop without making a mess, Casper or I made contact and her head was sucked against the siphon of the 1/2" tubing!

I shook her off in a panic while pulling the tubing up out of the water to stop the siphon-vacuuming effect. Poor girl! I may end up killing her just being stupid. She looked stunned, but seems okay today so far.

Last night in the middle of the night she was sleeping in the corner of the tank standing up rather proudly, but other times she seems to be leaing forward a little too much. Her breathing seems slow to me. The temperature of the tank seems to be staying between 71.1 and 73F. Current pH 7.8, salinity 1.025sg

melev · 02/13/2006, 04:02 PM

LisaD, you have a PM with my mailing address. The LFS can't get the meds here until Thursday.

LisaD · 02/13/2006, 04:19 PM

Marc,

I don't know if I can catch the FedEx truck in time, I'll try.

Lisa

melev · 02/13/2006, 04:59 PM

From another movie: Run, Lisa, run!

If it goes out tomorrow, I'll still get it quicker than the LFS can get it in. I appreciate your help.

pledosophy · 02/13/2006, 05:13 PM

Hi Marc,

Sorry your going through all of this. Seahorse.org is back up and running now if you want to consult with Keith Gentry or DianeB.

Sounds like you re doing everything right. YOu are getting some good information here.

I would double check the dosage on the medications you plan to use are for seahorses. Many times the dosage needs to be increased to combat the various strains of vibrio that seahorses can incur. The only medication I know o that is designed for seahorses is the Neo3 and others from aquabiotics.net

While many things can cause an outbreak of vibrio, it also may be your new addition that started the problem. I believe an asymptomatic carrier state occurs with seahorses as far as the carrying of the different strains of vibrio. It has been found on many occasions that seahorses can carry a strain of the bacteria and show no ill effects from it, but when mixed with a seahorse who carries a different strain of the bacteria that outbreaks can occur.

Think of it in terms of Americans drinking the water from Mexico while it is fine for one, it causes another to become ill.

Under normal conditions a seahorse can live it's entire life never having an outbreak from the strain it carries, however certain stress factors can weaken the state of the seahorse and allow the bacteria to begin to take over.

I am sorry you are having to go through this. Hope your reidi pulls through. It is amazing what they can come through and still be just fine.

Kevin

02/12/2006, 12:23 AM	#27
NanoLurker Registered Member Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Orange County, CA Posts: 377	i've never used that med so i'm not sure how long the full course of treatment is or the recommended WCs before redosing. i've used neo3 and neomycin/triple sulfa purchased from NFP and they're 10 day courses, 50% WC daily. the other antibiotics i've used have also been 10 days. no matter what, a full course is required, no stopping short because you see improvement. sorry - rigid airline or airstone both work, i sometimes will run one of each and my horses tend to prefer the airstone, kind of like little bubble massages. i keep at least a 5 gallon bucket of new water brewing at all times when they're in QT. it helps to have prepared clean water ready if needed. it can be stressful treating this guys and the last thing you need is to be frantically mixing and trying to match parameters. ammonia can be a problem because there's no biofilter so watch out for that, another reason to have matched water ready. it's good that she ate something, that is one of the keys to treatment. your plant looks like one i have in my QT tank now . i also have a piece of clear acrylic tubing (about 1" diameter, feeding tube kind) attached to the back with a spare heater holder. anything that's easily cleaned and they can hitch to comfortably is good. hard to say why it happened. when did the first symptoms appear? was it immediately after you added the second female (she's pretty)? or did she have symptoms prior to the new addition (suppressed appetite, tail beginning to change color, etc.). as panmanmatt said the other horse could be an asymptomatic carrier. could just be she's always had it and for whatever reason it popped up (stress, temp, ammonia spike, injury to the tail). Last edited by NanoLurker; 02/12/2006 at 12:40 AM.

02/12/2006, 11:40 AM	#34
LisaD That's not a salmon Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: central North Carolina Posts: 6,986	Marc, I just noticed this thread. Sorry about the problems you are having with Casper. Matt and Dan gave you good advice. The only thing I would add is that sometimes lowering sg can help, both to inhibit bacteria and give the seahorse some relief. I had a case once where a male ingens had an extremely swollen tail as well as some internal bubbles (under the skin). I treated with a combination of neomycin and triple sulfa as well as Diamox. It took a few weeks but it cleared up completely. I don't know if Diamox would be indicated in this case, just thought I'd mention it. This seahorse was so bad off at the time, it only ate if offered frozen mysis on a bamboo skewer feeding stick! If you need some meds, send me a PM. I have a pretty well stocked medicine cabinet and could send you something if you need it Monday. I have both Neomycin and Triple Sulfa as well as quite a few other meds... I know Casper did fine in his tank for quite a while. However, IME, seahorses do better long term in larger tanks with horizontal as well as vertical space, and a choice of lower and higher flow rates to swim in. Also, I'm not positive, but that second seahorse looks more like a kuda than a reidi to me. Good luck! I hope he makes a complete recovery. I think you have acted quickly enough that he stands a decent chance. __________________ Keeping saltwater tanks since the late '70s Current Tank Info: tankless at the moment

02/12/2006, 01:54 PM	#39
LisaD That's not a salmon Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: central North Carolina Posts: 6,986	The three meds (neomycin, sulfa drugs and diamox) can and have been used together numerous times by many keepers. They don't seem to have negative interactions. Diamox also has some antibiotic properties. I don't think I'd go as low as 1.011 on sg, but I'd consider going down to 1.015-1.018. If you want to go with less intervention, I'd recommend the neomycin/sulfa combination, lower temperature (as you have done) and slightly lowered sg, to about 1.018. Where she is right now is pretty critical - she will either make it or not in the next couple days. I understand your not wanting to stress her any more than necessary. FWIW, I have found that quick and aggressive treatment in these kinds of cases is very important. Good luck, I know you are doing all you can for her. If you decide you want me to send meds, I can send them by FedEx overnight delivery on Monday. I am allowed to use my work's FedEx discounts for personal shipments, so the cost would be pretty reasonable for a small package. Good luck! __________________ Keeping saltwater tanks since the late '70s Current Tank Info: tankless at the moment

02/12/2006, 03:58 PM	#41
Swanwillow goby girl Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Bemidji MN Posts: 2,025	I know that this may be a little OT, but I believe that it relates... your seahorses seem, well, kinda small for your having her for 6 months... unless your zoanthids are HUGE compared to normal ones. maybe there is/are some underlying issues with her? the new one you got looks pretty darn skinny too, but I'll blame that on whomever had it before you... while you have the one in QT, and the other not, you may want to up the feeding amount... my reidi/kuda things eat about 7 mysis AT LEAST per feeding... thats alot of food, but they WERE similarily sized about a month ago to yours, and were eating about the same amount, maybe one less. and thats 2 feedings a day... 14 full sized PE mysis a day (times three for mine-two for yours, so at least 28 mysis a day for two horses that are growing) wow-I never did the math before, but in a reef tank, normal people would freak out at the huge bioload that creates. HA.. sorry, going OT even farther. I'm just worried that they are both a little skinny: the one almost emaciated looking (your new one) causing stress upon the horse, and therefore=vibro incfection (on top of being in a small-ish hight tank) just IMO-not trying to be mean, just trying to give some ideas as to why vibro would break out suddenly... __________________ my advice:walk away. do nothing. til tomorrow. if its still alive, it will hopefully be fine. If you do not see it, do not try to find it. it may be hiding. just LEAVE it alone Current Tank Info: starting over! 125 gallon. Soon to be home to Blackfoot clowns, A. nigripes

02/13/2006, 07:53 AM	#45
Swanwillow goby girl Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Bemidji MN Posts: 2,025	ok-just making sure, ya know!!!! __________________ my advice:walk away. do nothing. til tomorrow. if its still alive, it will hopefully be fine. If you do not see it, do not try to find it. it may be hiding. just LEAVE it alone Current Tank Info: starting over! 125 gallon. Soon to be home to Blackfoot clowns, A. nigripes

02/11/2006, 10:31 PM	#26
melev Moved On Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Ft Worth, Tx Posts: 43,217	Thanks. She ate a few mysis that I dropped near her tonight. I just reviewed this thread, but maybe I missed it. Any idea what caused this in the first place? How long will treatment typically last? How often should water changes be done (1g, daily)? Am I adding another capsule of Furan II daily, as recommended on the package?

02/12/2006, 01:00 AM	#28
melev Moved On Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Ft Worth, Tx Posts: 43,217	I'd say this started up about a week ago. The new seahorse was added about 3 days ago, I think. It's hard to imagine one tiny seahorse in a 10g tank creating ammonia especially if it isn't eating much. The good news is I have 5g of premixed water ready to go, and I'm filling up my 55g drum right now so that by noon I can add salt and get that mixing well. I'll read the instructions on the package again. Odds are my LFS can get the other medication if I ask for it, but I have a feeling switching meds may not be ideal. Maybe I should stick to one treatment until it has concluded. The tank is 70.8 right now. The small heater I have for this tank (50w, I believe - it's old) doesn't turn off at its lowest setting, so I'm guessing its low point is 71 or 72 perhaps. I didn't want the tank to get too cold tonight as my house is 68-69F, and the 300w heater seems like a disaster in the making even though it has a lower set point marked on it. I'll see about adding a few more hitching items tomorrow. She's sleeping right now.

02/12/2006, 01:32 AM	#29
NanoLurker Registered Member Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Orange County, CA Posts: 377	you would be amazed at how quickly ammonia can jump when treating them. doesn't seem like it could but combine antibiotics that are hopefully killing bacteria, food, and waste and it can pop up to .25 quickly. i never truly appreciated my tanks biofilter until i started keeping horses again. if symptoms started a week before the new addition then it's doubtful she introduced something new. generally, you don't want to switch treatments mid-stream, so to speak. let's see how she's doing with what you have on hand. if it wasn't saturday i could send you additional meds (neo3) as a backup. i will e-mail you tomorrow though as there are a couple of items you should have on hand with these guys. oh, i forgot, there is a liquid form of neomycin available at most feed stores - it's called Biosol and has been used by a number of seahorse keepers in conjunction with triple sulfa. i try to keep them as comfortable as possible and offer them a couple of different hitches, nothing too fancy. a thicker one like the large tube, i have even used just a piece of prefilter (the kind of perforated/waffley looking stuff), the rigid airline tubing, a plant or fake coral. nothing you're too attached to it just gives them someplace to move to and hang for a bit. go to sleep now like casper

02/12/2006, 01:35 AM	#30
melev Moved On Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Ft Worth, Tx Posts: 43,217	That is good to know. Thanks.

02/12/2006, 06:21 AM	#31
DanU Registered Member Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: Ft. Pierce, FL Posts: 698	You will probably never know the exact etiology of the disease or which bacteria this is. There is still a lot to be learned with seahorses and many of the fish diseases. One thing that seems to help, particularly with tail rot, is cooler temperatures. There seems to be much less incidence at the lower temps of 74 or lower. Doesn't totally eliminate it, but seems to reduce the amount of incidences. I would keep an eye on the temperatures of the hospital tank but would not be afraid of the temps as low as 68. I have kept reidi at 68 - 69 degrees for the duration of winter last year without issue. They were still breeding at those temperatures. If you keep a real close eye on the ammonia, you may not have to do a 50% water change. We usually recommend it as not everyone does this well and any rise in ammonia will be a stressor and we want to remove as many stressors as possible. You can also use a little Cloram-X, Amquel + or Prime. The label on Furan 2 is for a 4 day treatment. At the end of this you will need to re-evaluate. If you see improvement, you can do another course of this or do a 100% water change and go with the Neomycin/Triple Sulpha combination. Triple sulpha is generally available at many LFS. Most that carry Neomycin is way underdosed. Biosol as mention is a liquid form of Neomycin and is available at many farm supply stores or they may have the generic version. If you should get this, go ahead and pick up a syringe, 3 cc or 6 cc for dosing. The Neo3 as mentioned is is a complete round of Neomycin and Sulpha drugs in a convenient package with instructions. Dan

02/12/2006, 09:47 AM	#32
melev Moved On Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Ft Worth, Tx Posts: 43,217	Thanks Dan. The temperature is 71.1 in the tank right now, and the heater is off. Casper is near the base of the plastic plant, and a few hours ago she was hugging it while she slept. Do you know of anyone that is keeping zoanthids and dendrophyllia (looks like giant suncoral polyps) at 74F? I've been keeping this seahorse in a small reef-like environment and a higher temperature than that for the past 7 months.

02/12/2006, 11:05 AM	#33
panmanmatt Registered Member Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Ocean County, NJ Posts: 474	Marc, I keep zoas at 72-74 in my seahorse tanks. No experience with the dendro (yet).

02/12/2006, 12:52 PM	#35
melev Moved On Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Ft Worth, Tx Posts: 43,217	Hi Lisa, I appreciate the offer to mail me meds for Casper. I'm hoping I can just pick it up locally from the LFS to not put you or anyone else out, plus that avoids further delays waiting on the mail to arrive. I've been planning for some time to build Casper a newer tank, and it will be really nice with more vertical room. I've been planning it for some time now, but have been too busy to to build it. With that one sick seahorse, you combined quite a few medications at the same time. I didn't know you could do that. How did you know that you needed all three, and that you could mix them all in the same hospital tank? Or did you use one medication at a time, working from treatment to treatment? Kuda? Darn. I was trying to get a male reidi for Casper to court with. I just checked on Casper. She's at the bottom of the tank, and she was hardly breathing while I watched for a steady 30 seconds. Then she started breathing more quickly a few times. I think she was holding her breath to mess with my head. Tank temp 71.3F Salinity 1.0245 pH 7.95 There is no light over the hospital tank to increase pH during the daytime. I can lower the salinity via the water changes if necessary. What would be the target salinity to aim for?

02/12/2006, 01:04 PM	#36
panmanmatt Registered Member Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Ocean County, NJ Posts: 474	Usual reccomendation for salinity 1.011 mesaured with a refractometer or salinity probe. Dropping the salinity can be done in one shot instead of gradually. The osmotic shock is what you are looking for. It will not harm the hores. Brining the salinity back up is another story. It should be done gradually over about 2 weeks time.

02/12/2006, 01:20 PM	#37
NanoLurker Registered Member Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Orange County, CA Posts: 377	the neomycin and triple sulfa are pretty much always dosed together, as dan said, they have a synergistic effect. diamox (acetazolamide) is usually added if the seahorse has any edema, fluid retention, caused by the infection. you'd know if that happens because she may appear bloated and have problems swimming (negative bouyancy). diamox it is a carbonic anhydrase inhibitor and is commonly used to treat glaucoma in humans. i've used all three together myself a couple of times, no problems. do you think he should drop the salinity that low? i know it's usually recommended for parasites and some meds but i'm not sure if he should go that low in this case. i'm a little reluctant to do that if there's any potential for open wounds. JMO though.

02/12/2006, 01:43 PM	#38
melev Moved On Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Ft Worth, Tx Posts: 43,217	That is really low. I know I'm trying to help her, but I have to imagine she's weak, and now stressed from the move. I have a hard time believing I can do all of this and not end up killing her in the process.

02/12/2006, 02:06 PM	#40
melev Moved On Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Ft Worth, Tx Posts: 43,217	Thanks Lisa. I'll see if I can get any of these meds tomorrow morning, and if not, I'll send you a message in this thread and via PM.

02/12/2006, 07:02 PM	#42
melev Moved On Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Ft Worth, Tx Posts: 43,217	I appreciate your input. I'm well-known for heavy feeding, and when I do feed I turn off the filter to keep the food in the tank. I do huge water changes and still have PO4 issues in the tank due to the excess food. I agree, the new horse looked very very thin, but hopefully it will plump up. I have fed twice a day in the past, but Casper was enjoying her meal simply once a day around 9pm. I use Hikari mysis, and I couldn't count how many go in the tank. Its a decent amount. Some of those zoos are the large polyped version, while others are tiny. The new tank will be much more spacious, which will help with water quality.

02/12/2006, 07:47 PM	#43
nickiwit Premium Member Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: Dallas Posts: 630	Marc, I have neo3 and diamox if you need it. I just ask that you replace the neo3 for me when you get a chance.

02/12/2006, 08:26 PM	#44
melev Moved On Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Ft Worth, Tx Posts: 43,217	And you are a little more local. Thanks Nicki. I'll see if the LFS has any in the morning.

02/13/2006, 02:25 PM	#46
melev Moved On Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Ft Worth, Tx Posts: 43,217	I just got off the phone with the LFS to see if he can get any of the meds listed in this thread. If he can't, I'll contact LisaD for the overnight. Nicki, I appreciate the offer but the drive to Allen and back would probably cost as much in gas (and I don't have the time today) as the overnight fees. I did a 5g water change last night, and added another capsule of Furan II. Casper ate some mysis, and has been moving around the tank some as she desires. During the water change, I carefully sucked out anything on the bottom of the tank (uneaten food or waste), and right at the end as I was trying to stop without making a mess, Casper or I made contact and her head was sucked against the siphon of the 1/2" tubing! I shook her off in a panic while pulling the tubing up out of the water to stop the siphon-vacuuming effect. Poor girl! I may end up killing her just being stupid. She looked stunned, but seems okay today so far. Last night in the middle of the night she was sleeping in the corner of the tank standing up rather proudly, but other times she seems to be leaing forward a little too much. Her breathing seems slow to me. The temperature of the tank seems to be staying between 71.1 and 73F. Current pH 7.8, salinity 1.025sg

02/13/2006, 04:02 PM	#47
melev Moved On Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Ft Worth, Tx Posts: 43,217	LisaD, you have a PM with my mailing address. The LFS can't get the meds here until Thursday.

02/13/2006, 04:19 PM	#48
LisaD That's not a salmon Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: central North Carolina Posts: 6,986	Marc, I don't know if I can catch the FedEx truck in time, I'll try. Lisa __________________ Keeping saltwater tanks since the late '70s Current Tank Info: tankless at the moment

02/13/2006, 04:59 PM	#49
melev Moved On Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Ft Worth, Tx Posts: 43,217	From another movie: Run, Lisa, run! If it goes out tomorrow, I'll still get it quicker than the LFS can get it in. I appreciate your help.

02/13/2006, 05:13 PM	#50
pledosophy Registered Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Beaverton Posts: 5,290	Hi Marc, Sorry your going through all of this. Seahorse.org is back up and running now if you want to consult with Keith Gentry or DianeB. Sounds like you re doing everything right. YOu are getting some good information here. I would double check the dosage on the medications you plan to use are for seahorses. Many times the dosage needs to be increased to combat the various strains of vibrio that seahorses can incur. The only medication I know o that is designed for seahorses is the Neo3 and others from aquabiotics.net While many things can cause an outbreak of vibrio, it also may be your new addition that started the problem. I believe an asymptomatic carrier state occurs with seahorses as far as the carrying of the different strains of vibrio. It has been found on many occasions that seahorses can carry a strain of the bacteria and show no ill effects from it, but when mixed with a seahorse who carries a different strain of the bacteria that outbreaks can occur. Think of it in terms of Americans drinking the water from Mexico while it is fine for one, it causes another to become ill. Under normal conditions a seahorse can live it's entire life never having an outbreak from the strain it carries, however certain stress factors can weaken the state of the seahorse and allow the bacteria to begin to take over. I am sorry you are having to go through this. Hope your reidi pulls through. It is amazing what they can come through and still be just fine. Kevin __________________ 120g mixed reef 90g QT