Question about ick

[Ragtop68rs]

The owner of my LFS has an opinion on ick that seems to contradict what is said here. First let me say that he is a great guy and has a great store. His fish are always healthy and he says he never looses any fish. He also never uses copper. Every new fish he gets he doses with seachem paraguard and that's it. He says ick is in everybody's tank all the time. It only rears its ugly head when a fish gets stressed. He says if you see some white spots just use the paraguard to get the ick to fall off and your good to go. I have a hard time believing this because I've never seen any ick in my main tank. I always quarintine and and use the hypo treatment if I see anything. So is he completely wrong or do others think this way also?

[Deinonych]

Ich can only exist in a tank if it is introduced there. If you quarantine all new acquisitions and prevent the parasite from entering the DT, it cannot spontaneously come into existence there, through "stress" or other idiopathic means. I can't speak to the effectiveness of Paraguard, but I am skeptical since there are no tested claims outside of the manufacturer's statements. I prefer TTM for elimination of ich since it is highly effective and doesn't subject the fish to chemicals.

Also, remember that an LFS is in the business of selling fish, so take any opinions with a grain of salt.

[ThRoewer]

I would say he is wrong in the fact that it is always there and how to treat it when it shows up.

But he is correct in his assessment that ich is in many cases a stress parasite.

Also, while his assumption that ich is in every system is wrong, many tanks may actually have it without showing it.

I found that fish that are healthy and otherwise fit can often get a light ich infection under control by themselves and be completely symptom free (likely also parasite free) even if ich is in the system.

Though if they get stressed, their immune system may get overwhelmed and they get sick. The level of stress determines how the infection goes. I had a powder brown tang in a tank too small for it (250 liters) and it always got a few white spots. They never got more, but each wave was rather of the same low density. None of the other fish ever showed a single spot.
I gave that fish to a friend with a 1500 liter tank and there it never showed a single spot without having gone through any treatment.

A couple of months ago I had a mild flare up after moving 7 fish from QT into my main system. I was ready to pull everyone for treatment, but the next waves were weaker and weaker so I decided that my fish would do better undisturbed where they were instead being stressed out in treatment tanks.
All fish were symptom free after a month and completely free of visible spots after 2 months. It's now 4 months later and despite some stressors none has had a relapse, so I'm not even sure the parasite is still in the system.
It also should be noted that some fish never showed a single spot.

While I would advise not to over react when you see a spot, I do not recommend to let the fish handle it for themselves, unless you have a lot of experience in assessing your fish's health an know precisely their behavior.
If the next wave is as strong as the previous or even stronger, immediate action is required = pull the fish and clean them up with your method of choice (TTM, hypo, CP, - TTM may be combined with hypo or CP). Copper as an immunosuppressant should not be used.

In general it is best to read up on the most common diseases (ich, velvet, uronema and brook - the last especially when dealing with clownfish) and all prevention and treatment options, their pros and cons and have what is required at hand, before you even go and buy your first fish.

Another thing to consider:
When you clean up your fish and keep them in a ich free system for a 3 months fallow period of the DT you are actually following the immunization protocol Burgess used for his immunization studies. So even if ich is still in your DT after this time, the old fish may not show anything as long as they are not stressed.
But new fish that get added may get sick as they have not been immunized.

There is also the possibility that the immunity may only be towards the actually encountered ich strain but not be fully effective against other newly introduced ich strains.

You also have to consider that many fish you see at stores may be ich survivors who are immune to varying degrees. They may never show anything but carry the parasite. (This very likely applies also to velvet and brook.)

I feel it is important to understand all this when dealing with ich (and other protozoan parasites).

Reef safe medications do not work. If you use them and the fish get better, they likely would have gotten better on their own without you lining the pockets of a shady company.
Same goes for garlic, ginger or other "herbal" remedies.

When in doubt I would rather try to keep the parasite out!
TTM is the method of choice for ich prevention. Even though my system may still have ich, I run all new fish going in there trough TTM, if for no other reason than to keep new ich strains from getting in there.

[Jeff4777]

To say its in all tanks is wrong. To says its in a lot of tanks with no signs of ich on the other hand could be true.

[cwill78295]

My lfs said the same thing. They told me to treat the tank with Rally if there is ever a flare up. They also told me to qt all new fish and treat them with Rally before adding them to the DT

[snorvich]

Originally Posted by cwill78295

My lfs said the same thing. They told me to treat the tank with Rally if there is ever a flare up. They also told me to qt all new fish and treat them with Rally before adding them to the DT

What ThRoewer said. I suppose your LFS sells Rally?

[cwill78295]

Yep they do

[pfan151]

Originally Posted by Ragtop68rs

The owner of my LFS has an opinion on ick that seems to contradict what is said here. First let me say that he is a great guy and has a great store. His fish are always healthy and he says he never looses any fish. He also never uses copper. Every new fish he gets he doses with seachem paraguard and that's it. He says ick is in everybody's tank all the time. It only rears its ugly head when a fish gets stressed. He says if you see some white spots just use the paraguard to get the ick to fall off and your good to go. I have a hard time believing this because I've never seen any ick in my main tank. I always quarintine and and use the hypo treatment if I see anything. So is he completely wrong or do others think this way also?

If a LFS owner claims he never loses any fish I would doubt his honesty.

[ThRoewer]

Originally Posted by pfan151

If a LFS owner claims he never loses any fish I would doubt his honesty.

+1 everybody loses some fish one way or the other.
Especially fish stores will have losses due to a variety of diseases or other causes.