Who came up with Calc, All and Mag ranges?

skimjim · 09/12/2015, 02:22 PM

Is the fact that Calc, Alk and Mag numbers are what they are bc it's what's found in natural seawater?

IMO, Calc and Mag can be much higher for much happier corals.

For years I would keep calc at 420ish.... And Mag at 1240ish.... Per the "recommended ranges"

Here recently I have up-ed calc at 480-520..... And Mag tov1600-1800. All my LPS look soooooo much better. Fleshier, more colorful.

I think the recommend numbers of NSW is crap... And makes your captive corals underperform.

outssider · 09/12/2015, 03:25 PM

i'll bet if we put you in a room and turn the heat up to 130 degrees you turn a very pretty shade of red and get nice and puffy....that doesn't mean you're going to be happy..

campos · 09/12/2015, 03:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by skimjim

Is the fact that Calc, Alk and Mag numbers are what they are bc it's what's found in natural seawater?

IMO, Calc and Mag can be much higher for much happier corals.

For years I would keep calc at 420ish.... And Mag at 1240ish.... Per the "recommended ranges"

Here recently I have up-ed calc at 480-520..... And Mag tov1600-1800. All my LPS look soooooo much better. Fleshier, more colorful.

I think the recommend numbers of NSW is crap... And makes your captive corals underperform.

Why mess with mother nature? Let me guess you like steroids in all your foods as well. Strawberries the size of a baseballs, tomatoes the size softballs, etc

joshky · 09/12/2015, 03:53 PM

The most important thing is parameter stability, ranges can vary greatly with success.

skimjim · 09/12/2015, 05:58 PM

Personal attacks shows me exactly how much knowledge you have on the subject....

Has anyone actually dove in scuba gear and saw corals in the wild? 90% of them have faded colors and are only semi impressive. I think a lot more can be achieved in captivity using higher ranges of major elements.

I'm looking for intelligent debates on the subject.

Corona007 · 09/12/2015, 06:49 PM

I guess if it works and it's not using anything else but what in the natural environment.
Other life forms seem to benefit from higher nutrition environment , Even humans.
Though it could have some adverse effects.
I know my critters seem to benefit from higher than recommended parameters. But it could be just short term.

joshkirkland83 · 09/12/2015, 06:58 PM

I agree. Mine are kept that high also and they are great. I have lps and soft.

Ron Reefman · 09/13/2015, 05:00 AM

I do keep my cal and mag high and my alk a bit high and I've seen no issues... but then no real benefits either.

For the people attacking here, stop and think about it this way. How about if we put you in an environment with 20% higher oxygen levels and feed you food with better nutrition? Do you think that would help you feel better and stronger?

bmrigs · 09/13/2015, 05:39 AM

I also wonder if higher ranges are better. Good thread.

gone fishin · 09/13/2015, 05:51 AM

My own personal experience take it as you will. I started out with the lower ranges of the 3. I read an article somewhere awhile back and slowly increased my levels to Alk about 9.5dkh, calc about 450ppm and mag to about 1420. these levels have been maintained for about a year or so and I did see better growth and color.

I do not know if there where any other contributing factors, I can't really say if there was or not.

figuerres · 09/13/2015, 06:17 AM

corals in the wild are also dying from pollution and global warming so how they look in many places is not ideal. no that the ca and Mag in the wild are wrong, many other factors are harming them.

keep in mind that they have grown with stable water parameters for millions of years but a lot of changes in the last 50 years (give or take).
also water pram's around the world do vary some so I would say that what is published is an average value not the exact values at one location. in the past I have seen a salinity map of the world and wow quite a range ... some areas are much higher than others and this is influenced by water flow, temp and effects of fresh water from large rivers and estuaries .... so find where that coral is from and then find the norm for that spot if you want.... but then most tanks have corals and fish from 10 - 20 or more different parts of the world so what to do then ??

Sugar Magnolia · 09/13/2015, 06:39 AM

This thread has been moved to the current forum.

alten78 · 09/13/2015, 06:42 AM

I'm wondering who's "recommended numbers" people are referring to? Everything I see the calcium rangesis 380-450 and alk 7-11 dkh. I wouldn't call those "crap" but I certainly wouldn't be having a good time if my tank fluctuated daily between those top and bottom numbers even though they are "within range." That said, the key is balancing the two and stability. I do keep my calc higher because that's how reef crystals has always been for me, but if alk gets too high then ill see burnt tips or some other negative effect. One reason I stopped two part dosing and just stuck with kalk is for it's balance of both...

dkeller_nc · 09/13/2015, 07:14 AM

The idea that we are keeping corals and other ocean critters in something akin to their natural environment is incorrect. It's also incorrect to think that we can keep corals in something approaching their natural environment.

As just one example, natural coral reefs are often described as "oligotrophic". While it may (or may not) be true that the waters of remote reefs contain little in the way of dissolved primary nutrients in the form of phosphate, nitrate, etc..., it's wholly incorrect to think of them as nutrient poor. Much like a rainforest, the nutrients are bound up in life - there's a massive amount of nutrients in the waters of a coral reef in the form of living animals.

So trying to mimic the low mineralized nutrient content of a coral reef in a home aquarium is misguided, since it's completely impossible to mimic the other component, which is a thick soup of planktonic life. And has been observed in many cases, trying to do so can result in bleached-out, STN corals.

In a similar vein, it may be just as misguided to expect that maintaining natural ocean water averages of primary minerals would be optimal in the artificial environment of a reef tank.

undbulsu · 09/13/2015, 03:09 PM

Haven't actually seen a peer reviewed study, but their recommendations for LPS corals are Ca 440, Mg 1310, and Alkalinity12./4.3. Not as high as you are running, but higher than what you stated are the standby recommendations.

thegrun · 09/13/2015, 03:41 PM

I get the best growth at CA: 450, Mg 1350, Alk 9.5, but I see better color at CA: 425, Mg 1350, Alk 8.0

bertoni · 09/13/2015, 06:28 PM

This article discusses the recommended ranges, and gives some reasoning behind them:

http://www.reefkeeping.com/issues/2004-05/rhf/index.htm

CHSUB · 09/13/2015, 07:01 PM

Has anyone actually dove in scuba gear and saw corals in the wild? 90% of them have faded colors and are only semi impressive. I think a lot more can be achieved in captivity using higher ranges of major elements.

not sure where you're diving, but i've been "blown away" with the color and beauty of some of my dives. i'm also curious where you come up with the 90% figure?

karimwassef · 09/14/2015, 03:18 PM

I've found that Ca and Mg can be low or high as long as they're above a minimum requirement. For me, that's 400-550 on Ca and 1300-1600 on Mg.

The Alk is the unknown ... I keep mine around 7.5-8.5 but this is one that has caused me some pain in colony crashes. Ca and Mg don't have that kind of catastrophic impact IMO.

billsreef · 09/14/2015, 05:28 PM

Just because a coral that looks brown in the wild can turn a bright blue in a tank does not automatically mean it is doing better in the tank than in the wild. As for Ca, Mg, etc., like growing plants in a green house, sometimes slightly elevated levels can increase growth rates.

oseymour · 09/15/2015, 02:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CHSUB

Has anyone actually dove in scuba gear and saw corals in the wild? 90% of them have faded colors and are only semi impressive. I think a lot more can be achieved in captivity using higher ranges of major elements.

not sure where you're diving, but i've been "blown away" with the color and beauty of some of my dives. i'm also curious where you come up with the 90% figure?

Just came back from Montego Bay, Jamaica and was blown away by the colors of the reef.
Maybe he's reffering to the way the colors look on TV? Before I went to an actual reef I always wondered why the colors looked muted on TV.

09/12/2015, 02:22 PM	#1
skimjim Registered Member. Join Date: Oct 2010 Posts: 513	Who came up with Calc, All and Mag ranges? Is the fact that Calc, Alk and Mag numbers are what they are bc it's what's found in natural seawater? IMO, Calc and Mag can be much higher for much happier corals. For years I would keep calc at 420ish.... And Mag at 1240ish.... Per the "recommended ranges" Here recently I have up-ed calc at 480-520..... And Mag tov1600-1800. All my LPS look soooooo much better. Fleshier, more colorful. I think the recommend numbers of NSW is crap... And makes your captive corals underperform.

09/12/2015, 03:53 PM	#4
joshky Acros & Wrasses Join Date: Oct 2013 Location: Central KY Posts: 2,546	The most important thing is parameter stability, ranges can vary greatly with success. __________________ Josh My 80g: http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2677031

09/12/2015, 05:58 PM	#5
skimjim Registered Member. Join Date: Oct 2010 Posts: 513	Personal attacks shows me exactly how much knowledge you have on the subject.... Has anyone actually dove in scuba gear and saw corals in the wild? 90% of them have faded colors and are only semi impressive. I think a lot more can be achieved in captivity using higher ranges of major elements. I'm looking for intelligent debates on the subject. Last edited by skimjim; 09/12/2015 at 06:05 PM.

09/13/2015, 05:00 AM	#8
Ron Reefman Registered Member Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: Cape Coral, FL Posts: 10,431	I do keep my cal and mag high and my alk a bit high and I've seen no issues... but then no real benefits either. For the people attacking here, stop and think about it this way. How about if we put you in an environment with 20% higher oxygen levels and feed you food with better nutrition? Do you think that would help you feel better and stronger? __________________ The good thing about science is that it's true whether or not you believe in it. (Neil deGrasse Tyson) Visit my build thread http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2593017

09/13/2015, 05:51 AM	#10
gone fishin Registered Member Join Date: Jul 2011 Location: Wyocena Wi Posts: 6,936	My own personal experience take it as you will. I started out with the lower ranges of the 3. I read an article somewhere awhile back and slowly increased my levels to Alk about 9.5dkh, calc about 450ppm and mag to about 1420. these levels have been maintained for about a year or so and I did see better growth and color. I do not know if there where any other contributing factors, I can't really say if there was or not. __________________ Tony Current Tank Info: 180gal DT, BM NAC77 skimmer,3 Maxspect razors, Maxspect Gyre 150, 30g QT

09/12/2015, 03:25 PM	#2
outssider Registered Member Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: Reseda, Ca. Posts: 1,717	i'll bet if we put you in a room and turn the heat up to 130 degrees you turn a very pretty shade of red and get nice and puffy....that doesn't mean you're going to be happy..

09/12/2015, 06:49 PM	#6
Corona007 Registered Member Join Date: Apr 2015 Posts: 205	I guess if it works and it's not using anything else but what in the natural environment. Other life forms seem to benefit from higher nutrition environment , Even humans. Though it could have some adverse effects. I know my critters seem to benefit from higher than recommended parameters. But it could be just short term.

09/12/2015, 06:58 PM	#7
joshkirkland83 Registered Member Join Date: Sep 2015 Posts: 81	I agree. Mine are kept that high also and they are great. I have lps and soft.

09/13/2015, 05:39 AM	#9
bmrigs Registered Member Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Fort Lauderdale, FL Posts: 198	I also wonder if higher ranges are better. Good thread.

09/13/2015, 06:17 AM	#11
figuerres Registered Member Join Date: May 2002 Location: Plant City,FL,USA Posts: 1,339 Blog Entries: 15	corals in the wild are also dying from pollution and global warming so how they look in many places is not ideal. no that the ca and Mag in the wild are wrong, many other factors are harming them. keep in mind that they have grown with stable water parameters for millions of years but a lot of changes in the last 50 years (give or take). also water pram's around the world do vary some so I would say that what is published is an average value not the exact values at one location. in the past I have seen a salinity map of the world and wow quite a range ... some areas are much higher than others and this is influenced by water flow, temp and effects of fresh water from large rivers and estuaries .... so find where that coral is from and then find the norm for that spot if you want.... but then most tanks have corals and fish from 10 - 20 or more different parts of the world so what to do then ?? __________________ Denny, Geek of all things... I guess I could fit the phrase "inquiring minds want to know..." :-) Current Tank Info: 150 reef tank underway, getting it stocked

09/13/2015, 06:39 AM	#12
Sugar Magnolia Registered Member Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Northern VA Posts: 17,691	This thread has been moved to the current forum. __________________ Adrienne The only thing to fear is fear itself....and spiders.

09/13/2015, 06:42 AM	#13
alten78 Registered Member Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Sheffield Lake, OH Posts: 1,231	I'm wondering who's "recommended numbers" people are referring to? Everything I see the calcium rangesis 380-450 and alk 7-11 dkh. I wouldn't call those "crap" but I certainly wouldn't be having a good time if my tank fluctuated daily between those top and bottom numbers even though they are "within range." That said, the key is balancing the two and stability. I do keep my calc higher because that's how reef crystals has always been for me, but if alk gets too high then ill see burnt tips or some other negative effect. One reason I stopped two part dosing and just stuck with kalk is for it's balance of both... __________________ When life gives you lemons, make lemonade. Then find a person where life gave them vodka and have a party. ~ Ron White Current Tank Info: 120g SPS dominated

09/13/2015, 07:14 AM	#14
dkeller_nc Registered Member Join Date: Mar 2013 Location: Central NC Posts: 5,062	The idea that we are keeping corals and other ocean critters in something akin to their natural environment is incorrect. It's also incorrect to think that we can keep corals in something approaching their natural environment. As just one example, natural coral reefs are often described as "oligotrophic". While it may (or may not) be true that the waters of remote reefs contain little in the way of dissolved primary nutrients in the form of phosphate, nitrate, etc..., it's wholly incorrect to think of them as nutrient poor. Much like a rainforest, the nutrients are bound up in life - there's a massive amount of nutrients in the waters of a coral reef in the form of living animals. So trying to mimic the low mineralized nutrient content of a coral reef in a home aquarium is misguided, since it's completely impossible to mimic the other component, which is a thick soup of planktonic life. And has been observed in many cases, trying to do so can result in bleached-out, STN corals. In a similar vein, it may be just as misguided to expect that maintaining natural ocean water averages of primary minerals would be optimal in the artificial environment of a reef tank.

09/13/2015, 03:09 PM	#15
undbulsu Registered Member Join Date: Jan 2011 Location: Lexington, KY Posts: 97	The best "research" I have seen is from Red Sea Haven't actually seen a peer reviewed study, but their recommendations for LPS corals are Ca 440, Mg 1310, and Alkalinity12./4.3. Not as high as you are running, but higher than what you stated are the standby recommendations. __________________ Red Sea Reefer 450, Geisemann Aurora, Vertex 150 Skimmer. Just getting started. Current Tank Info: Red Sea Reefer 450, Geisemann aurora, Vertex 150

09/13/2015, 03:41 PM	#16
thegrun Registered Member Join Date: Dec 2008 Location: Garden Grove, Ca Posts: 17,023	I get the best growth at CA: 450, Mg 1350, Alk 9.5, but I see better color at CA: 425, Mg 1350, Alk 8.0

09/13/2015, 06:28 PM	#17
bertoni RC Mod Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Mountain View, CA, USA Posts: 88,616	This article discusses the recommended ranges, and gives some reasoning behind them: http://www.reefkeeping.com/issues/2004-05/rhf/index.htm __________________ Jonathan Bertoni

09/13/2015, 07:01 PM	#18
CHSUB "Certified Hobby Expert" Join Date: Dec 2011 Location: Miami, Fl Posts: 2,038	Has anyone actually dove in scuba gear and saw corals in the wild? 90% of them have faded colors and are only semi impressive. I think a lot more can be achieved in captivity using higher ranges of major elements. not sure where you're diving, but i've been "blown away" with the color and beauty of some of my dives. i'm also curious where you come up with the 90% figure? __________________ Goniopora Police _________________ building a 60"x36"x30" peninsula reef...follow at "NEW TANK BUILD" on reef discussion forum! http://reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2110638

09/14/2015, 03:18 PM	#19
karimwassef Registered Member Join Date: May 2004 Location: Dallas, TX Posts: 11,033	I've found that Ca and Mg can be low or high as long as they're above a minimum requirement. For me, that's 400-550 on Ca and 1300-1600 on Mg. The Alk is the unknown ... I keep mine around 7.5-8.5 but this is one that has caused me some pain in colony crashes. Ca and Mg don't have that kind of catastrophic impact IMO. __________________ Failure isn't an option It's a requirement. 660g 380inwall+280smp/surge S/L/Soft/Maxima/RBTA/Clown/Chromis/Anthias/Tang/Mandarin/Jawfish/Goby/Wrasse/D'back. DIY 12' Skimmer ActuatedSurge ConcreteScape

09/14/2015, 05:28 PM	#20
billsreef Moderator 10 & Over Club Join Date: Oct 1999 Location: Long Island, NY/North Miami Posts: 36,538	Just because a coral that looks brown in the wild can turn a bright blue in a tank does not automatically mean it is doing better in the tank than in the wild. As for Ca, Mg, etc., like growing plants in a green house, sometimes slightly elevated levels can increase growth rates. __________________ Bill "LOL, well I have no brain apparently. " - dc (Debi) Current Tank Info: Far too many tanks according to my wife, LOL.