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Old 04/12/2006, 10:22 AM   #26
Reef Junkie
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Retard!
jk

Good points Jove. This is a step in the right direction to better understanding these animals. Especially when it comes to classification.


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Old 04/12/2006, 12:21 PM   #27
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It sounds to me (and haven't thoroughly read the article from the post) that the whole Protopalythoa genus is no longer, but what I gathered from scanning it was that everything was now Palythoa instead of Protopalythoa. I'll read more thoroughly this time to see if I misunderstood. Odd that animals that are genetically almost identical (well, enough to be placed in the same genus according to these new findings) can vary so much. I guess Reticulate Evolution may need to be studied more, as it seems to separate the differences between like species that have completely different appearances... It was nice to be able to call something a Protopalythoa and know it was different than a Zoanthus or a Palythoa. I guess there always has to be a wrench in the gears...


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Old 04/12/2006, 06:15 PM   #28
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Nope, it seems as though I read it correctly. Borneman says in the linked article that Palythoa and Protopalythpa (from his findings) are congeneric and nearly conspecific, so they would not be Zoanthus sp. He only tested 24 specimens, but it seems as though we have two differing results from the genetic re-evaluation studies (if the other guy is saying that Protopalythoa are actually Zoanthus sp.). Once again, the waters are muddied... There is no question that they belong to the Zoanthidea order, but are clearly not described as Zoanthus sp but Borneman (unless you want to argue that the 'PE' type corals were not ever called Protopalythoa, but all the documentation I've seen from people like Sprung indicate that what we refer to as Protos are the RPE's, PPE's, GPE's, etc.)... I'd like to see the other article, if possible...


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Old 04/12/2006, 11:48 PM   #29
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you ar misunderstanding, borneman did not do any research the articul linked was to an abstract from a paper published in a scientific journal by James Reimer. Borneman was just reporting this.
The original paper this thread was published about was also writen by james Reimer.

He wrote both papers

the linked abstract paper compairs the DNA of protopalythoa to palythoa and show that they are not geneticly distinct enough in some cases to be in a differant genus

the one I am posting about taks dna from a zoanthid and compairs them to other zoanthids to showing their phylogony. it then places them in the genus zoanthus and gives them the speices name gigantus

these papers are conclusive and there realy is no muddy water

it is scientificly clear that the group of zoanthids we call people eaters are in the genus Zoanthus it is almost imposable that this data would be overturned, the phylogenetic distance between these newly clasifyed zoanthids and protopalythoa is simply too great


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Old 04/12/2006, 11:51 PM   #30
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also what we call PE have never been scientificly discribed, untill now.


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Old 04/12/2006, 11:53 PM   #31
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also classification is nolonger done by traits it is done by compairing DNA and RNA


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Old 04/12/2006, 11:59 PM   #32
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http://reefcentral.com/forums/showth...hreadid=821821
here is what is scientificly known as protopalythoa and may now be re classifyed as palythoa


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Old 04/13/2006, 07:23 AM   #33
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Ok... so I have another question then.

If the PE type coral is now Zoanthid Gigantus, that would mean zoanthid is a genus, and Gigantus is the species correct?

So what is the species of the regular zoanthids?


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Old 04/13/2006, 07:34 AM   #34
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Quote:
Originally posted by Fcwham
also classification is nolonger done by traits it is done by compairing DNA and RNA
yup so my guess is that if they are to be classified as the same species, they would have to have DNA that is only different by like 0.001%, versus being classified as the same genus having DNA different by 0.01% (numbers may not be correct but something like that).

if someone has a zoology or ecology book on hand they can correct me

i think the original zoanthid species was just zoanthid sp. the "sp." standing for species? or did the "sp" just stand for "special" b/c it was unclassified, or classification undetermined at the time.


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Old 04/13/2006, 08:26 AM   #35
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Quote:
Originally posted by Jovreefer
Ok... so I have another question then.

If the PE type coral is now Zoanthid Gigantus, that would mean zoanthid is a genus, and Gigantus is the species correct?

So what is the species of the regular zoanthids?
there are hundred, maybe thousands of other species of zoanthus,

it is a very poorly studied area taxonomy-wise, so we don't really know how many species there are. i am basing the hundreds on my own judgement, based on how many different sizes and designs i have seen.


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Old 04/13/2006, 08:28 AM   #36
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also since they don't have skeletal components, there aren't fossil records, and id up to this point has been subjective, based on color of the mat, growth form, etc., which i know can vary based upon tank conditions.

sp. stands for species, and it is used when an identification to the species level cannot be made with certainty. (borneman's book)

i believe a hallmark of a species is it's ability to sexually reproduce, though some similiar species are able to cross-breed, such as some angels and tangs. i imagine the same holds true for zoanthus.


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Old 04/13/2006, 12:10 PM   #37
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Looks like I stand corrected, and I'll just have to take your word for it. I went the physics route(engineering), so I haven't had a Biology class since high school...

It makes sense, I am just one of those zoa nazis everyone is so fond of. I have a friend with a tank full of zoas that all have long stalks and big oral discs (no, not bragging). They could easily have been viewed as what used to be what I called Protopalythoa (including the one shown from the link from Fcwham and all people eater types). I guess they were just looking for more light, so they plumped up. It is interesting that something hat has a difference in DNA of only 0.001% can look so different, but look at the human animal and there are all kinds of differences...


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Old 04/23/2006, 09:28 AM   #38
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Cool Zoanthids/Zoanthus identification

First ever post here - feel like I am in first grade.

Was very surprised to see the discussion on Zoanthus gigantus in this forum, and happy too - great to see people who have tons of experience with zoanthids debating the pros and cons of classification ideas. Anyways - fcwham's comments on the two papers and the overall conclusions are completely in line with what we stated in the papers, namely:

1. based on the DNA we examined from the Palythoa and Protopalythoa spp. samples we used, all should be classified as Palythoa spp.

2. from the pics I have seen, the "people eaters" are what we have described as Zoanthus gigantus (see the pic fcwham posted earlier).

Would love to here from people on our conclusions - you never know when and where you'll get your next research idea!

Cheers,

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Old 04/23/2006, 09:38 AM   #39
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James,

Great to hear from you.

Does that mean that what was once classified as Protopalythoa grandis is now a Palythoa grandis or something along those lines? As I understand this, the genus Protopalythoa is bunk and void now, right?


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Old 04/23/2006, 09:49 AM   #40
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Nice to speak to you James,

How did you go about comparing the DNA? Just the whole restriction enzyme mapping and then running gels?

would love to see some pics of your "lab tanks"


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Old 04/23/2006, 07:25 PM   #41
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taxonomy

Monday morning - ugh!

In answer to your questions:

1. Does that mean that what was once classified as Protopalythoa grandis is now a Palythoa grandis or something along those lines? As I understand this, the genus Protopalythoa is bunk and void now, right?

Protopalythoa is not yet bunk and void. Even once a scientific paper is published, nomenclature changes (new species, combining species etc.) have to be formally adopted by the International Commission on Zoological Nomenclature. So as it is now Protopalythoa is a genus. BUT - from all the samples I have seen, and the paper we just put out, Protopalythoa and Palythoa are very closely related, and do not form seperate monophylies. In other words, if you made a family tree, Palythoa and Protopalythoa are not seperate branches but all jumbled together. There may be other Proto species out there that are different and form a seperate group - nothing is ever certain, but for now, as far I believe, Protopalythoa is "bunk and void".


2. How did you go about comparing the DNA? Just the whole restriction enzyme mapping and then running gels?

All the DNA methodology is in the paper - send me an email and I can send you the pdf if you want! Basically, PCR and direct sequencing was what we did, using universal and specific primers.

would love to see some pics of your "lab tanks"

I'll get on it when I can - but I assure you they aren't as beautiful as some of the pics I have seen on RC.

cheers,

James


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Old 04/29/2006, 03:33 PM   #42
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So there is no way to see this paper without belonging to a college?


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Old 04/29/2006, 04:26 PM   #43
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Quote:
Originally posted by CoralNutz
So there is no way to see this paper without belonging to a college?
it was in a link on the first page, reef keeping magazine, and i think i saw it somewhere else too.
http://www.reefkeeping.com/issues/2006-04/snn/index.php


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Old 04/29/2006, 07:34 PM   #44
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No the link goes to another paper, you will have to e-mail Jreimer to get the papaer amout PE zoas that this thread is about.
Both papers are writen by jreimer but the oher one talks about protopalythoa and palythoa and is not related to PE zoas


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Old 04/29/2006, 08:05 PM   #45
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Yeah, drop me a line and I can send you the pdf files for the Z. gigantus paper and the Paly/Protopaly paper, plus two others if you are interested. The only catch is I am away for a week from today on a tropical island in southern Japan - diving, bbqing, and collecting zoanthids on the reef! But if you do send me a request for the papers I will send them to you.


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Old 04/29/2006, 08:26 PM   #46
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Quote:
Originally posted by jreimer
Yeah, drop me a line and I can send you the pdf files for the Z. gigantus paper and the Paly/Protopaly paper, plus two others if you are interested. The only catch is I am away for a week from today on a tropical island in southern Japan - diving, bbqing, and collecting zoanthids on the reef! But if you do send me a request for the papers I will send them to you.
man, the life of a researcher is tough huh?

i do have a good question though, the equipment used for DNA research isn't cheap, thats for sure. and researching taxonomy isn't exactly lucritive. are you doing this extra research on your own time? or is this something that is being funded? (i.e. commercial interest or grant?)


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Old 04/29/2006, 08:29 PM   #47
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Yeah, it is really tragic isn't it?!? There are actually some busy times, but for the most part it is pretty blissful!


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