Randy's vinegar dosing limit. I found it!

[kenneth wolfe]

my experance shows that a full load saturation of 15/45 does not caries the bacteia growth and alk that 5/45 carries ...keppeing the kalk to vinegar ratio 5/45 gives me the same as 10ml with no vinegar with the added benifit of the small bateria bloow...it takes weeks for the bacteria to stablize (grow and die back) ..I dont chase numbers never have..I look at my tank..Putting extra venagar in ato dont do the same as seperate dossing of the two..I have seen my ato with heavy deposits from sitting disolve some of the older deposits that normaly would not get disolved with water alone..so an older ato contaner would need cleaned after changing ratios to be sure what your putting in is what you get out of your kalk/vinegar ...weeks to stablize..takeing it slow is a better plan here

[markalot]

I just discovered how dangerous a super saturated solution of Kalk is when used for topoff. My sump level was slowly falling so I upped the timed topoff just a bit and of course the Alk rose, and rose significantly. 8.8 to start, 9.8 by the next evening.

I'm returning to just Kalk and will dose Vinegar separately as/if needed to help control nitrates and phosphates.

[tmz]

It's much easier to control if you dose them separately ,IME. I've always done it that way.

[tmz]

my experance shows that a full load saturation of 15/45 does not caries the bacteia growth and alk that 5/45 carries ...keppeing the kalk to vinegar ratio 5/45 gives me the same as 10ml with no vinegar with the added benifit of the small bateria bloow...it takes weeks for the bacteria to stablize (grow and die back) ..

I'm not sure what any of that means. Bacteria don't live in 12.4pH limewater. Adding more vinegar enables more calcium hydroxide to remain in solution. 48 ml per gallon of water with 2.72 tsps of kalk instead of two is generally used as a max vinegar addition.

[cb684]

Originally Posted by Randy Holmes-Farley

OK, I've been experimenting with upping and upping the vinegar dose for my tank. Hoping to stop any green algae on the glass and kill off some macroalgae and maybe bryopsis (which has not worked).

I've been adding more and more vinegar and less and less vodka.

Well, at the recent limit of 410 mL of lime-saturated vinegar, the tank really was noticeably poorer.

Most particularly, the RBTAs browned up (still orange, but darker and the white parts are now brown) and they expanded less and less, and the H. crispa also expanded less. Some soft corals were also shrunken.

Cyano also started to grow faster again.

Also, the green algae on the glass seemed to grow faster! Bryopsis is also out of control, although that may not be related.

So I’ve decided to cut way back and try 150 ml of lime-saturated vinegar with no vodka for a bit and see if things go back to normal.

Hi,
I know this was a while ago. But I was wondering if NO3 was not likely the limiting factor. Wouldn't be a good idea to dose NO3 if there is still some algae growing and you are dosing a lot of carbon?

[bertoni]

Maybe, but the algae need nitrate, too, so I'm not sure how adding nitrate would help.

[cb684]

I was thinking that one could find the right nitrate dosing to further decrease phosphates. Not really to keep the nitrates higher. Would that be a good strategy?

[bertoni]

If the goal is to reduce algal growth, then adding nitrate just adds more fixed nitrogen for the algae. One process or the other might work better with a higher nutrient level, but I think the odds are very good that adding more food will encourage more growth, even for the algae.

[cb684]

My rational is that since bacteria growth reduces about 10:1 nitrate to phosphate it is possible the phosphate continues high enough to encourage algae growth. It is fairly common to se threads of people getting nitrates 0ppm but phosphates still higher than 0.03ppm and still getting algae growth.
In a lot of these cases, including this reported by Randy, increasing dosing does not help. It sounds like as if the system had encountered a bottle-neck.
In other systems it works just great, and all the algae is gone.
Obviously I understand that we don't know what is this limiting factor. It could be different things for different systems. I also understand that nitrates might be 0 ppm because the algae are consuming it so that even nitrate might be increased.
I would really like to have a more comprehensive water macro and micro elements test to work with a more "educated" guess. But in the absence of that (I am not aware if or where we could get accurate measurements of that), I am just trying to come up with some of the possibilities for limiting factors.
Where would you start?

[bertoni]

The algae can't live on phosphate alone, and they consume a lot of nitrogen relative to phosphorus, so I'm not sure why adding fixed nitrogen would help. I would consider a bit of GFO if the phosphate were high enough to cause problems with calcium carbonate deposition.

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Originally Posted by cb684

I would really like to have a more comprehensive water macro and micro elements test to work with a more "educated" guess. But in the absence of that (I am not aware if or where we could get accurate measurements of that), I am just trying to come up with some of the possibilities for limiting factors.
Where would you start?

Triton testing?

[rfgonzo]

I just finished week #7 on a 200 gallon total water volume, 32ml of vinegar per day. I have noticed less algae on glass and nitrates at 5ppm and phosphates undetectable with Hanna checker. I have also noticed that my RBTA that has been in the same place for the last year has moved three times in the last three weeks and also is a dark brown and shrunken but still seems to be healthy. I'm wondering if I should continue on with a higher dose? (week 8) or maintain it where it is now? or if I should cut back?

[bertoni]

Hard to say. The RBTA might need a bit more food now that the water is cleaner. What has it been fed?

[rfgonzo]

I have fed it mysis and small pea sizes of salmon. I know their have been other cases where the same thing has happened while vinegar dosing and RBTA's.

[bertoni]

Hmm, that's not a bad diet, in my opinion. I might try feeding it a bit more often, but it might just be looking for water with more nitrate and phosphate. I would expect carbon dosing to affect coloration. You might need to back off on the dosing to get the coloration back to the previous state.

[tmz]

Phosphate limitation might be an issue for the anemone. Are you using any PO4 removers like GFO. If so I'd stop unitil some PO4 was evident in testing, say 0.03 to 0.05 ppm or so.
32ml or 5% vinegar for 200 gallons isn't very much. FWIW, I dose a mix of vodka and vinegar which is equivalent to 368 ml of vinegar in terms of organic carbon content. to a 650 gallon sytem. I've been doing it for over 5 years, Entamacea quadricolor anemones(bubble tips) in the system are a bit darker than in a non dosed tank but have been thriving for all that time.

[rfgonzo]

I don't use GFO unless I absolutely need to, which the last time I used it was about 1-1/2 or 2 years ago. I will try feeding the RBTA a bit more and cut back slowly on Vinegar. I have about 120 diffrent corals SPS and LPS all are looking great and growing fast so I know their is nutrients in the water. The RBTA still looks healthy just not as colorful or large. 32ml is a very small amount on 200 gal but maybe cutting back for a bit will color him back up.

[tmz]

Let us know if the color improves.

[crook6693]

hey all

just wondering

You have to use 8 times more vinegar than vodka, I am dosing 500ml a day in an 1800 litre predator tank which is a FOWLR, nitrates are around and stay stable at 12 (red sea test)

will the 8 times the amount required compared to vodka evaporate over time, my thinking is would the tank water the fish are in eventually start becoming vinegar which I guess is not what the fish would like or as I mention will it evaporate or be skimmed out.

due to no corals I have not completed a water change for 4 months, calcium, kh and salinity are all in check.

hopefully no one will shout at this but my reasons are phosphate and nitrate are so low the need for water change was taken away?

thanks all

[tmz]

The acetic acid in the vinegar hydrolizes to acetate when it hits the tank .The water that comes with it is no different than any other di water top off delivered to the tank.
The evaproation in stored vingar open to the air would decrease the water and thus increase the acetic acid concetration in the remaining water over time. Vinegar is 95% distilled water. 80 proof vodka is 60 % distilled water.

I think 500 ml of vinegar is a high side dose for the 470 gallons you have. I use about half that . With vinegar dose it slowly over the course of the day to avoid precipitous downward pH spikes.

due to no corals I have not completed a water change for 4 months, calcium, kh and salinity are all in check.

hopefully no one will shout at this but my reasons are phosphate and nitrate are so low the need for water change was taken away?

Water changes add and subtract a wide array of elements ,not just phosphate and nitrate , mainting levels of these elemnts is more critical in a coral tank but still helpful in a fish only, IMO.

[crook6693]

wow thank you for such a quick response.

I will lower the dosage and carryout a water change a little more often then rather than never, I use red sea pro which has raised elements which I use in my reef tank so I will use this on my FOWLR.

once I start the drop slowly I will check weekly for changes in my nitrate levels as the tank is well fed especially my fat guinea foul now at 14 inch's, fat bugger lol

the dosing unit I have is set to dose the daily amount over 6 periods in 24 hours

thank you

[tmz]

You are welcome.

The Red Sea Croal Pro is high in calcium and alk ;not necessarily all the other elements and ratios vs other salts. Iron, Potassium, magnesium, trace elements , chloride to sulfate ratios et alia are all affected by water changes.

[james30ct]

Question for everyone. I started vinegar dosing my 180g tank and I'm on week 2. 15ml per day. When I woke up this morning tank was a little cloudy and after I dosed this afternoon it got a little cloudy again. Should I cut back? I wouldnt think this small of a dose would cause a bacterial bloom.

tank specs
temp 80
sg 1.026
alk 8
mag 1400
cal 430
nitrates always read zero but its an api test
phos also read zero with api and elos test but I have glass algae almost daily

I have 3 tangs, 2 clown and 3 smaller fish. I wanted to start vinegar because I feed a lot and I have sand and wanted to keep nutrients down.

[HighlandReefer]

Dosing vinegar or other carbon sources will increase your bacterial populations. These bacteria need to be removed in order to export nutrients from your water column.

Either you cut back a bit on the amount you dose or increase your filter methods like adding bag filters or diatom filters into your system to remove the bacteria quicker.

[tmz]

What's the water volume?

Are you using a skimmer? GAC?