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Old 09/30/2017, 09:15 PM   #176
karimwassef
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Hey subsea. I'm planning a 1500gal solar tank in Dallas. You have a 10,000 gal with greenhouse macro in Austin? What is that like? Want to drive up a few hours and help me out mine together?


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Old 09/30/2017, 11:56 PM   #177
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Hey subsea. I'm planning a 1500gal solar tank in Dallas. You have a 10,000 gal with greenhouse macro in Austin? What is that like? Want to drive up a few hours and help me out mine together?
I have read your thread and have made post. I find it extremely interesting. I am presently married to bringing an outside system on line of three 150G Rubbermade tanks buried in the ground. The last time I operated this system with live rock and coral during the winter, it broke the bank and I shut it down, I have decided to change inhabitants that can handle changing eviromental conditions. Going to the coast to collect green mollies and pods. I have already put 50 mixed mollies from my lagon propagation tanks inside into one tank outside that will have fish and Calurpa Prolifera. I have also found 5 species of pods at liveaquaria, between these aquacultured pods and wild caught at the Texas coast I hope to maintain diversity thru the winter months. When I operated the 10KG greenhouse system I circulated water from 10K system to tanks buried in ground for geothermal stability. During the months of July and August, that geothertmal stability cost $1000 each month in electricity. I used two 1HP fans during the hottest part of the day. Humidity was the lowest at this time promoting more effective evaporation. Main circulation was acomplished with a 2HP blower to move water and promote evaporation. Evaporation misters were supplied with a 1 HP centrifugal pump, Due to the summer heat gain, this was econominal unfeasible and I pulled the plug.
I would enjoy visiting, to see your systerms and your vision. In the short term, I don't have time. I will suscribe to your thread and contribute, if I can. I have learned to say I don't know enough but let us research it out. Hopefully, by spring, I will have stabalized this geothermal visit to allow me a few days away.


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Old 10/01/2017, 12:41 AM   #178
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"During the months of July and August, that geothertmal stability cost $1000 each month in electricity."

does that mean that your blowers cost $1000 or that you saved that much in cooling cost? I would expect that geothermal should be more economical than the alternatives (HVAC, etc...)

I would expect 3HP to be ~ 2.25KW ~ $180 a month?


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Old 10/01/2017, 01:05 AM   #179
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Subsea,

Yeah we have a whole lot to learn. Some tools we needed were just invented this century. Cavecam. Etc. The big research in the sponge aspect of the reef dynamics have been done by a group in Amsterdam. Very impressed with their work. Was great to see some unbiased pure science. One of their interesting discoveries was the production of particulate matter from sponges. Basically shed sponge cells. Whole new dynamic to explore. Perfect sized particle for some pelagic copepods to eat.


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Old 10/01/2017, 01:18 AM   #180
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Dz6t,

When it comes to sponges, you really need to define what type of sponge the subject matter is referring too. Sponges are found in almost all marine benthic biotopes. They are similar to corals. Some like light. Some dont. Some have symbionts. And these symbionts types can include just about every symbiont found in marine environments. And of course, when speaking about algae, one needs to define what type of algae you are referring too. I am harvesting the following algae as excess nutrient. Just pulled that little chunk out couple days ago.



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Old 10/01/2017, 07:22 AM   #181
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I don't know how to tell which sponge needs light. Is there a way to tell. Trial and error on placement doesn't suit me but I usually go that route . It's great when a sponge just appears and happily grows without my involvement . I want to get those orange sponges that are Caribbean . Those ball and finger sponges that I see on KP Aquatics or live-plants.com . I am thinking of putting them in my fuge but I dont have uv light down there or blue spectrum . I don't know whether they survive . I see them orange or red so I assume if they have algae with them they are reflecting that spectrum .


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Old 10/01/2017, 08:53 AM   #182
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This and the Intelligent Design threads have really helped me and I encourage new hobbyist and those not so new but struggling with a lot of different commercial "fixes" to read these threads.

Understanding the 4 zones/cycles and how they interact should ease the stress of dealing with the affects of an unbalanced new tank. How many threads start out with something like this "I am testing little to no N&P and yet (insert algae/cyano struggles here)" followed by a dozen or more recommendations from lights out, chemical additions to removing the rock and starting over while only addressing two zones of the cycle?

Additional, the complexity of the microfauna and interaction among the reef inhabitants also makes our tanks far more interesting that the pretty colors and shapes.

Thanks to the members who have been contributing to the two threads. My healthy tank inhabitants are grateful as well, even if they don't know it.


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Old 10/01/2017, 08:57 AM   #183
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I don't know how to tell which sponge needs light. Is there a way to tell. Trial and error on placement doesn't suit me but I usually go that route . It's great when a sponge just appears and happily grows without my involvement . I want to get those orange sponges that are Caribbean . Those ball and finger sponges that I see on KP Aquatics or live-plants.com . I am thinking of putting them in my fuge but I dont have uv light down there or blue spectrum . I don't know whether they survive . I see them orange or red so I assume if they have algae with them they are reflecting that spectrum .
Live Aquaria has pretty reliable information about the requirements for the sponges they sell.

You can also purchase tiny rocks that are seeded with the cryptic sponges from other sites (like reeffarmers). These are the low flow low light (cryptic and semi-cryptic zones) sponges that are being disused here as part of the natural filtration system.



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Old 10/01/2017, 10:22 AM   #184
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You know you can sell coralline algae on the net now. Don't toss it


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Old 10/01/2017, 03:35 PM   #185
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Karim,

Threw dinner plates of coralline algae away. My tanks specialize in growing coralline right now.

Louis,

Basically almost all sponges offered for sale in retail stores are from exposed zones. Those Orange fingers, yellow balls, etc. Have a symbiont in them. Cryptic sponges are almost impossible to collect and ship to market. Difficult to reach and very delicate. You have to wait till they grow out of dark rock sides or coral base rock. Hitchhikers. That is what I have done. Now I don't think we have even experimented with the true cave sponges that have high bacterial symbionts. Those would be awesome. A powerful all in one filtration animal for the captive system. Would also like to get semi cryptic coralline species. Branching ones.


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Old 10/01/2017, 04:47 PM   #186
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Would also like to get semi cryptic coralline species. Branching ones.
Some of these have been available on fleabay.

In the bottom of mine I've seen blue, red, black, yellow and white sponges. The white tends to reach out pretty well and spread. Yellow spreads well but stays attached to hard surfaces. I should really make it viewable in the new set up, but I've been afraid to mess with it. I've figured out a way to move the sump into the new set up without taking that area out of it. It sucks laying on the floor with a flashlight.


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Old 10/01/2017, 04:56 PM   #187
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You know you can sell coralline algae on the net now. Don't toss it
That is unbelievable. I see cheato selling for 30 bucks for a quart bag. Since I shut down my skimmer, I wackado about a gallon bag a week. The only time anyone around here wants it is after setting up a new reef. I can't give it away.


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Old 10/01/2017, 06:11 PM   #188
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that's because there's no good marketing behind it. color, texture, and light zone make a big difference in the value of coralline.

For example, I have every color of low light coralline and it grows like the plague. But I can't get any to grow in my 1600 PAR zone. If I did find it, I'd pay for it.


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Old 10/01/2017, 08:36 PM   #189
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Just a thought but at 1600 par, the lighting may be too intense for coralline.


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Old 10/01/2017, 08:56 PM   #190
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"During the months of July and August, that geothertmal stability cost $1000 each month in electricity."

does that mean that your blowers cost $1000 or that you saved that much in cooling cost? I would expect that geothermal should be more economical than the alternatives (HVAC, etc...)

I would expect 3HP to be ~ 2.25KW ~ $180 a month?
$1000 was total electric bill which included 4 ton heat pump for AC in house. I also operated a 5 HP water well at 900' with a max flow rate of 25GPM, which I was using for irrigation. I pulled the plug on green house and let the grass die. The total monthly electrtic bill dropped $600.

On a side note, evaporation makeup in greenhouse was 150 GPD. Each gallon weighs 8.34 lbs and when each pound evaporates there is 1000 btu of cooling. If I pushed my numbers correctly that is 1,251KBTU of total cooling in a 24 hour period divide by 24 equals heat removal required per hour is 52KBTU One ton of AC removes about 14KBTU per hour. In the smaller sizes, one ton is equal to 1 HP. It would require 3.7HP running 24/7 to remove the same heat that 150 gallons of evaporation. In the smaller size units a ton is equal to 1HP. One HP is .746KW/Hr. So cost to remove heat gain, if using AC in 10K gallons in green house was 3.7 HP times .746KW/HP times 24 hours or 66.24KW per day would be $6.22 per day times 30 equals $187 per month. This is the amount required if using standard refrigeration.

Instead of planning system ahead as you are doing, I just did it. Sometimes, I did it more than once.


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Old 10/01/2017, 10:11 PM   #191
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hmmm.. probably best to take it back on my build thread so as to not take up room in this thread

With both geothermal and evaporation - I have a lot of real estate dedicated to cooling.

Would you post in my thread what you think it would cost ?


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Old 10/02/2017, 04:22 PM   #192
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This and the Intelligent Design threads have really helped me and I encourage new hobbyist and those not so new but struggling with a lot of different commercial "fixes" to read these threads.

Understanding the 4 zones/cycles and how they interact should ease the stress of dealing with the affects of an unbalanced new tank. How many threads start out with something like this "I am testing little to no N&P and yet (insert algae/cyano struggles here)" followed by a dozen or more recommendations from lights out, chemical additions to removing the rock and starting over while only addressing two zones of the cycle?

Additional, the complexity of the microfauna and interaction among the reef inhabitants also makes our tanks far more interesting that the pretty colors and shapes.

Thanks to the members who have been contributing to the two threads. My healthy tank inhabitants are grateful as well, even if they don't know it.

Thank you for the kind words. Eric Borneman was quoted as saying "If someone tells you that their way is the only way to operate a reef tank, run from them. I like to steer My boat downstream without fighting the current going upstream. My only show tank is a 75G Jaubert Plenumn mixed gargen on top with a 30G mud/macro refugium on bottom. This tank has been set up for 25 years, it was moved ten years ago at this present location. Due to a red planaria infestation in the sump, I had decided to turn off lights in refugium and grow pods. Since finding this thread, I am stoked about this cryptic zone filtration and have seeded refugium with sponges. In my past mixed garden tanks, I have kept sea apples alive for 2 years and flame scallops for 18 months. Filter feeders fascinate me and I am looking forward to keeping NPS.


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Old 10/03/2017, 04:18 PM   #193
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Food webs

[QUOTE=Steve Tyree;25230359]Subsea,

Yeah we have a whole lot to learn. Some tools we needed were just invented this century. Cavecam. Etc. The big research in the sponge aspect of the reef dynamics have been done by a group in Amsterdam. Very impressed with their work. Was great to see some unbiased pure science. One of their interesting discoveries was the production of particulate matter from sponges. Basically shed sponge cells. Whole new dynamic to explore. Perfect sized particle for some pelagic copepods to eat.[/Q


I have always favored nutrient recycling over nutrient export unless my nutrient export is something that is favorable: ediable seaweed from a refugium, pods and corals that are removed and sold are all nutrient export.

I received your two ebooks and am really stoked on having NPS in my DT.


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Old 10/04/2017, 07:02 PM   #194
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Getting back to nutrients, several of the surprises when I was looking at the research on phosphates was PO4 was higher away from the reefs and the lowest levels anywhere in the ocean where found on reef flats (clearly corals sucking up as much as they can get). Second was phosphate is a limiting nutrient for corals to utilize nitrogen. Yet another is microbes are needed to convert organic into inorganic wheich is mush easier for corals to utilize.

https://gmao.gsfc.nasa.gov/research/...al_DSR1999.pdf
http://www.academia.edu/2645650/The_...osphorus_Cycle
http://jeb.biologists.org/content/214/16/2749.full
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science...25326X17301601


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Old 10/06/2017, 04:55 AM   #195
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Fifteen years ago, Schreiber operated there oxidation wastewater facilitities to target phosphate removal. By stressing the bacteria with low oxygen conditions, they documented increased phosphate uptake by these bacteria. In my 25 year old Jaubert Plenumn, facultative bacteria perform denitrification chemistry and free up a nitrogen gas molecule.


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Old 10/14/2017, 03:46 PM   #196
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started selling my rock ledges.. here's what was under the first one.. consistent nutrient rich low flow area behind the overflow but avoids all the fast movement

 photo 014B7BD7-9295-4CAD-8051-0569BC4C4A12_zps8aviqwxc.jpg

any idea that that pink stuff is? it has fleshy bumps, then long threads to other new bumps

Then there are the usual dark pink blobs (so scientific) and the worms and tubes


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Old 10/15/2017, 12:11 PM   #197
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Getting back to nutrients, several of the surprises when I was looking at the research on phosphates was PO4 was higher away from the reefs and the lowest levels anywhere in the ocean where found on reef flats (clearly corals sucking up as much as they can get). Second was phosphate is a limiting nutrient for corals to utilize nitrogen. Yet another is microbes are needed to convert organic into inorganic wheich is mush easier for corals to utilize.

https://gmao.gsfc.nasa.gov/research/...al_DSR1999.pdf
http://www.academia.edu/2645650/The_...osphorus_Cycle
http://jeb.biologists.org/content/214/16/2749.full
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science...25326X17301601
.

From the last two papers . I am damned if I do and damned if I don't . I think I just have to stop messing with the nutrient levels so much and try to achieve a balanced ratio of N/P vs ultra low levels . So if my levels are high my zooxanthelle are happy along with the nuisance algae . But reduce the levels then I starve both . So does this mean that the herbivores are the ones that keep the reef from being overtaken ? so I take it as keep the nutrients from being way high to avoid the macro algae from over growing the coral and employ a lot of herbivores to control the algae that does pop up .


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Old 10/15/2017, 12:51 PM   #198
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This is a review article that worth a read.
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science...66842X1500075X

Attachment 380488


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So from this article I see that DOC is a stressor to the corals . So my skimmer is important yet not enough if only at 30 % effective . So my chaetomorpha refugium is a big source of DOC . So I think I am going to get rid of it anyways since I have no room for a light in my sump after recent upgrades and purchases . So a sponge zone is where I should head to with increased herbivore in DT and moderate levels of of N/P . Sorry I am so confused


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Old 10/15/2017, 01:11 PM   #199
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I think of it as a team... teamwork

Poop is the start of the cycle for me. In addition to directly feeding coral, it feeds a range of pods and worms (which also feed coral) who break it up so smaller corals can take it in. Detrivores are key here.

Then as those organics break down, they feed the algae scrubber. This works because of high air-water surface action and lack of predation compared to the DT. Again, this generates bacteria and other DOCs, but consumes the bad inorganics N and P. Algae are key here - algal sequestration.

Then the sponges (and corals) consume those bacteria and DOCs, maintaining a healthy balance of DOCs for corals to both feed and be safe of pathogens. The sponges also precipitate granules and create more opportunities for life (to feed corals). Sponges key here - sponge sequestration.

Then corals and fish consume the balance of food and restart the cycle of poop. I feed my fish algae to recycle. Fish are key here.

Simplistic - but works for me


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Old 10/15/2017, 01:41 PM   #200
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So from this article I see that DOC is a stressor to the corals . So my skimmer is important yet not enough if only at 30 % effective . So my chaetomorpha refugium is a big source of DOC . So I think I am going to get rid of it anyways since I have no room for a light in my sump after recent upgrades and purchases . So a sponge zone is where I should head to with increased herbivore in DT and moderate levels of of N/P . Sorry I am so confused

Marco algae release a lot of sugar and some protein in the water, which in turn feed the coral. I will say algae, sponge and coral form a food web that is mutually beneficial.


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