Trying to stabilize alk w/ato and sea chem reef builder with no luck

GunkGunk · 08/17/2012, 09:48 PM

Could someone help me please. I started running gfo about a month ago. Since around that time my alk drops almost 2.5 dkh a day. Before I was droppnig about 1 dkh a day(now I go from 10.4 to 8, before I was going 10.4 to 9 dkh a day). Not sure if the gfo has anything to do with it or not. I just have been adding seachem reef builder daily at one time to get it up back up to 10.4 using the reef chemistry calculator as a guide and the guide has been dead on too.

I'm not really comfortable with that much of a swing everyday so I started putting the reef builder in my ato water as per the formula that seachem provides about how much to add to ato water. Well I guess I don't have enough evaporation because this hasn't slowed my alk drop much at all if any. Should I add more reef builder to ato gradually so the little additions of top off do more?

Couple of more things that I suspect may be contributing factors but not sure.

1) Recently the air conditioning has been off and with the windows open ph is 8.2. When the house was all closed up the ph stayed at 7.8.

2)Tank temp was running aroud 83-84 degrees(i think from internal pumps contributes alot to this). I put a fan in my sump to try and increase evaporation and it got tank temp down to 78 overnight but I was afraid with the cooler temps locally in might keep going down and I had to go to work so I turned the fan off. Now it's back up to 81

All I can think of is that with the elevated temps in the tank and the ph rising from 7.8 to 8.2 the corals are metabolizing more alk and ca. Also that since runnning the gfo and getting phosphates down has also increased coral demand for alk and ca and even growth of coralline algae which has also taken off lately.

I see no precipitation at all and all corals look great and are growing like crazy.

46 bowfront with 20g sump
mag=1440
nitrates 5 or less
phosphates don't know but hair algae in sump is all dying back. No algae at all in tank
1.025 sg

So should I put more reef builder in ato water? I just got a gallon Bulk Reef Supply Kalk that I want to use but I can't even keep the alk up with ato using reef builder so I figure so Kalk is just to maintain it won't be enough to keep the alk up with my low evap.

Sorry kind of all over the place but just frustrated I can't figure a way to get my alk more stable. Any ideas? BTW tank has up and running for a little over a year. Let me know if you want more info. Thanks

bertoni · 08/17/2012, 11:31 PM

A 2.5 dKH drop is fairly normal for a saltwater tank. I had tanks that consumed that much per day with no stony corals in the tank. I did see a lot of coralline growth.

A 2-part like B-Ionic or one of the equivalents is an easy way to get started with dosing. Corals consume calcium and alkalinity in a fairly fixed ratio, so dosing both usually is appropriate.

bnumair · 08/18/2012, 12:22 PM

sodium carbonate will help bring ph and alk up. you can dose it over time not fast.
use a BRS calculator and see how much you need mix it in rodi water and dose over long time not at once. also dont increase alk more than 1.5dkh per day.
it is very normal for reef tanks to consume 1-3dkh per day and in order to replenish the consumption you need to either do dosing, 2part,calcium reactors etc.

GunkGunk · 08/19/2012, 09:11 PM

Well increasing the Seachem reef builder in ato water has been able to keep my make my dkh drop a little less daily. I was dropping form 10.4 to 8. Now it only drops to 9. So I only have to manually dose enough to raise it back to 10.4 daily. I wanted to use Kalk but the reef calculator says I need about 1 1/2 gallons of saturated kalk water a day but I only evaporate about 2/3's of a gallon daily so that won't work. I think I'm going to switch to BRS 2 part when my reef builder runs out and maybe run the kalk in the ato water just to limit the amount of swings daily

Nano sapiens · 08/19/2012, 11:17 PM

This is a great article covering this subject:
http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2004-12/rhf/index.php

In theory, adding balanced calcium/alkalinity should be enough to keep both calcium and alkalinity stable in the relative short term (there will inevitably be some drifting deviation in the long term). However, any deviation up or down in the amount of the balanced combo added will register as a much larger swing in alkalinity than in calcium. I am also experiencing an alkalinity decrease and before having read this article I was using the same Seachem product added directly to the tank on alternating days to keep alkalinity up (my ATO provides Kalkwasser). I have been attempting to keep the calcium level as stable as possible (target at 420ppm) to see if the alkalinity drop becomes less pronounced or even stabilizes. After two weeks of calcium stability at 420ppm, my tests still show an alkalinity drop, just not as pronounced. This indicates that I need to add a bit more of the combo, but not so much as to raise the calcium level significantly.

Authentic · 08/20/2012, 10:16 AM

I am also interested in this thread.I have a ato system with kalkwasser but have begun noticing a drop in my alk level.i have alot of sps frags in the tank and would like to keep my alkalinity on the higher side ,maybe 8.5-8.9.recently i have noticed a alk drop from 8.3 which has been stable to a7.7 or so.i have been adding an alk supplement to bring it up.does this mean my demand is higher than my ato can provide?do people run both kalkwasser and two part to keep the alk up?my ph is always steady at 8-0...8.10 and my calcium is good at 450

Nano sapiens · 08/20/2012, 12:31 PM

To quote the Holmes-Farley article: If an aquarist is supplying a balanced additive to his aquarium, and calcium seems stable but alkalinity is declining, it may very well be that what is needed is more of the balanced additive, not just alkalinity.

I'm attempting to get cal stable as possible, then monitor alk. If alk continues to drop, I'll slowly increase the amount of Kalkwasser until alk is in the expected zone for the amount of calcium present.

bertoni · 08/20/2012, 02:59 PM

Many people run both Kalk and two-parts. I did that for years. It's fairly common for tanks to need both. The BRS two-part is a good idea. I used a similar DIY 2-part for years.

08/17/2012, 09:48 PM	#1
GunkGunk Registered Member Join Date: Aug 2011 Posts: 41	Trying to stabilize alk w/ato and sea chem reef builder with no luck Could someone help me please. I started running gfo about a month ago. Since around that time my alk drops almost 2.5 dkh a day. Before I was droppnig about 1 dkh a day(now I go from 10.4 to 8, before I was going 10.4 to 9 dkh a day). Not sure if the gfo has anything to do with it or not. I just have been adding seachem reef builder daily at one time to get it up back up to 10.4 using the reef chemistry calculator as a guide and the guide has been dead on too. I'm not really comfortable with that much of a swing everyday so I started putting the reef builder in my ato water as per the formula that seachem provides about how much to add to ato water. Well I guess I don't have enough evaporation because this hasn't slowed my alk drop much at all if any. Should I add more reef builder to ato gradually so the little additions of top off do more? Couple of more things that I suspect may be contributing factors but not sure. 1) Recently the air conditioning has been off and with the windows open ph is 8.2. When the house was all closed up the ph stayed at 7.8. 2)Tank temp was running aroud 83-84 degrees(i think from internal pumps contributes alot to this). I put a fan in my sump to try and increase evaporation and it got tank temp down to 78 overnight but I was afraid with the cooler temps locally in might keep going down and I had to go to work so I turned the fan off. Now it's back up to 81 All I can think of is that with the elevated temps in the tank and the ph rising from 7.8 to 8.2 the corals are metabolizing more alk and ca. Also that since runnning the gfo and getting phosphates down has also increased coral demand for alk and ca and even growth of coralline algae which has also taken off lately. I see no precipitation at all and all corals look great and are growing like crazy. 46 bowfront with 20g sump mag=1440 nitrates 5 or less phosphates don't know but hair algae in sump is all dying back. No algae at all in tank 1.025 sg So should I put more reef builder in ato water? I just got a gallon Bulk Reef Supply Kalk that I want to use but I can't even keep the alk up with ato using reef builder so I figure so Kalk is just to maintain it won't be enough to keep the alk up with my low evap. Sorry kind of all over the place but just frustrated I can't figure a way to get my alk more stable. Any ideas? BTW tank has up and running for a little over a year. Let me know if you want more info. Thanks

08/17/2012, 11:31 PM	#2
bertoni RC Mod Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Mountain View, CA, USA Posts: 68,496	A 2.5 dKH drop is fairly normal for a saltwater tank. I had tanks that consumed that much per day with no stony corals in the tank. I did see a lot of coralline growth. A 2-part like B-Ionic or one of the equivalents is an easy way to get started with dosing. Corals consume calcium and alkalinity in a fairly fixed ratio, so dosing both usually is appropriate. __________________ Jonathan Bertoni

08/18/2012, 12:22 PM	#3
bnumair Dr. Reef at ur service Join Date: May 2009 Location: Tulsa, Ok, USA Posts: 5,124 Blog Entries: 9	sodium carbonate will help bring ph and alk up. you can dose it over time not fast. use a BRS calculator and see how much you need mix it in rodi water and dose over long time not at once. also dont increase alk more than 1.5dkh per day. it is very normal for reef tanks to consume 1-3dkh per day and in order to replenish the consumption you need to either do dosing, 2part,calcium reactors etc. __________________ Water Quality: NO3 0,Phos 0,Cal 440,Alk 7.5,Mag 1300 "Reef Fast, You Crash, Reef Slow, You Pass" Mike's Reef 3:16 Current Tank Info: 240gal 96x24x25. sump 48x24x17, 4800gph return 4x Sea swirls. 6x AI Vega Color. 200# Pukani rock, dual recirculating skimmer, Biopellet, GFO Carbon rx's, Cal rx. Closed loop. 1.5hp chiller, genesis renew. Apex & RKE

08/20/2012, 02:59 PM	#8
bertoni RC Mod Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Mountain View, CA, USA Posts: 68,496	Many people run both Kalk and two-parts. I did that for years. It's fairly common for tanks to need both. The BRS two-part is a good idea. I used a similar DIY 2-part for years. __________________ Jonathan Bertoni

08/19/2012, 09:11 PM	#4
GunkGunk Registered Member Join Date: Aug 2011 Posts: 41	Well increasing the Seachem reef builder in ato water has been able to keep my make my dkh drop a little less daily. I was dropping form 10.4 to 8. Now it only drops to 9. So I only have to manually dose enough to raise it back to 10.4 daily. I wanted to use Kalk but the reef calculator says I need about 1 1/2 gallons of saturated kalk water a day but I only evaporate about 2/3's of a gallon daily so that won't work. I think I'm going to switch to BRS 2 part when my reef builder runs out and maybe run the kalk in the ato water just to limit the amount of swings daily

08/19/2012, 11:17 PM	#5
Nano sapiens Registered Member Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: East Bay, Northern California Posts: 295	This is a great article covering this subject: http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2004-12/rhf/index.php In theory, adding balanced calcium/alkalinity should be enough to keep both calcium and alkalinity stable in the relative short term (there will inevitably be some drifting deviation in the long term). However, any deviation up or down in the amount of the balanced combo added will register as a much larger swing in alkalinity than in calcium. I am also experiencing an alkalinity decrease and before having read this article I was using the same Seachem product added directly to the tank on alternating days to keep alkalinity up (my ATO provides Kalkwasser). I have been attempting to keep the calcium level as stable as possible (target at 420ppm) to see if the alkalinity drop becomes less pronounced or even stabilizes. After two weeks of calcium stability at 420ppm, my tests still show an alkalinity drop, just not as pronounced. This indicates that I need to add a bit more of the combo, but not so much as to raise the calcium level significantly.

08/20/2012, 10:16 AM	#6
Authentic Registered Member Join Date: Jun 2011 Posts: 491	I am also interested in this thread.I have a ato system with kalkwasser but have begun noticing a drop in my alk level.i have alot of sps frags in the tank and would like to keep my alkalinity on the higher side ,maybe 8.5-8.9.recently i have noticed a alk drop from 8.3 which has been stable to a7.7 or so.i have been adding an alk supplement to bring it up.does this mean my demand is higher than my ato can provide?do people run both kalkwasser and two part to keep the alk up?my ph is always steady at 8-0...8.10 and my calcium is good at 450

08/20/2012, 12:31 PM	#7
Nano sapiens Registered Member Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: East Bay, Northern California Posts: 295	To quote the Holmes-Farley article: If an aquarist is supplying a balanced additive to his aquarium, and calcium seems stable but alkalinity is declining, it may very well be that what is needed is more of the balanced additive, not just alkalinity. I'm attempting to get cal stable as possible, then monitor alk. If alk continues to drop, I'll slowly increase the amount of Kalkwasser until alk is in the expected zone for the amount of calcium present.