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11/01/2015, 01:11 AM | #2126 |
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In this video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tl0I-LKTm-s
you can clearly see the flagellum of gymnodinium, it also shows that a high light intensity isn't very useful for viewing it. Sincerely, Dennis |
11/01/2015, 01:23 AM | #2127 |
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Cool
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11/01/2015, 02:47 AM | #2128 |
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Here in Iceland they are called groves-algae because the all have them.
I always took the word dino for a short for dynamo because of the ability of motion. The flagellates are more than one. They are really thin and close to impossible to get all in focus on a conventional microscope. The pictures below are worth a 1000 words. The last one is labeled Ostreopsis Ovata. Last edited by DNA; 11/01/2015 at 02:53 AM. |
11/01/2015, 03:24 AM | #2129 |
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Since we agree on that lack of plankton is common in dino infested tanks we need to establish if dinos decimated them or if decimated plankton brings on the dinos.
I think we can take it as a fact that dinos have the ability to at least keep plankton down. We have yet to go full force on the plankton. It's in abundance in the ocean. There are companies that skim the ocean for plankton on a large scale. Over here the sea is too cold for reef plankton, but in the US there must be several. If I lived there I'd visit one with a huge bucket and ask for a dense mix from their scoop. In a small tank, replacing all of the live rock could possibly turn the tide. We do not know what plankton competes with dinos or if it's bacteria or virus or a combination of several things. Natural seawater could be interesting to try out, but it would have to be reef compatible. A healthy tank does not need a continuous supply of plankton and a I think the dozes could be too small. |
11/01/2015, 03:40 AM | #2130 |
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We often find that our dino infested tanks have zero nitrates.
I've three times added live rock to see nitrates rise and seen improvement in SPS as a result. On the last occasion nitrate levels only rose to the lowest detectable level on my Salifert test kit. At the same time there was no change in dino densities so nitrates could be a factor in SPS health in tanks that have dinos. I've also found out that Turbinaria and SPS like Acropora alternate in health and growth. They dislike the condition that the other likes. I've had at least three periods showing this and learned from others that Turbinaria is unaffected with palytoxin while there is mass death in Acropora. For more than a year I had Cheatomorpha that I never harvested, then something changed and it's been growing well for a long time now. There are few absolute values when you have dinos, just endless parameters that are hard to figure out. |
11/01/2015, 04:40 AM | #2131 |
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Yesterday, I dipped the pinnigorgia sp. into distilled water, because it was the first coral that had dinos growing on its tips. Today there are dinos everywhere on that pinnigorgia sp. Maybe because the freshwater bath also killed dino competitive organisms on the coral skin . Now they are gone and the dinos have free space to spread. Maybe I should take a closer look into the bacterial fauna that lives on a coral infested with dinos and one that is not infested...
Sincerely, Dennis |
11/01/2015, 08:35 AM | #2132 | |
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Quote:
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11/01/2015, 11:25 AM | #2133 |
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Has anyone use garf grunge?
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11/01/2015, 11:51 AM | #2134 |
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That looks perfect. How'd you come across that? I've never heard of it
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11/01/2015, 12:22 PM | #2135 |
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Old school. No idea if they're still operating.
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11/01/2015, 03:17 PM | #2136 |
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11/01/2015, 04:00 PM | #2137 |
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11/01/2015, 04:56 PM | #2138 |
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that's disappointing. If a retailer can prove that their rocks/grunge will fight off dinos, that would be a game changer (for them too).
I imagine a video with a healthy tank and a sick tank. You take a dino infested rock and put it in the tank with the healthy microbiome. The next morning and for the rest of the week, the rock is clean and stays clean while the rest of the healthy tank is unaffected. That would be good live rock. Then the scientists step in and study the plankton in the healthy tank and isolate the dino killers. It's probably a team sport, but these smary guys figure it out. Then they cultivate them and sell bottles of the stuff. Then we can close this thread.
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11/01/2015, 06:24 PM | #2139 |
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The problem we also have is the density of cysts in the substrate/sand, in the ocean if the dinos transform into cysts, most of them will be taken away by sea currents into deeper ocean layers with much plankton that will feed on the dino cysts or they are lost because they sink into the deep sea, they will never see the sunlight again. Only a few survive. In our reeftanks if nothing eats them in the substrate, they only have to wait for suitable conditions. The mortality rate is low. I read somewhere in this thread the cyst form has a lifetime of about 100 years... This little fellows are true masters of surviving in harsh environments.
Sincerely, Dennis |
11/01/2015, 06:48 PM | #2140 |
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There's a species of dinoflagellate (Oxyrrhis marina) that eats other dinos. If someone could just culture that we'd all be good. You could make a killing! I've seen ciliates apparently consuming dinos also.
I don't think eradicating dinos from an aquarium is ever going to be possible. Even if you somehow killed every living dino and cyst, the odds of reintroducing them have to be close to 100%. Do coral dips even kill dinos/cysts to begin with? I dipped all my corals with CoralRX and still got them. Given that they're so ubiquitous in nature, I think we have to go with developing a robust enough ecosystem that they're held in check. re microscopy: ro water seemed to lyse the cells instantly, I'll try buffering it. I'm sure I'm not looking at diatoms, but it would be interesting to see the movement of the flagella. ivy
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28g cube, CF 105watts! Tunze 9001. Tiny frags: Euphyllia, blasto, ricordea and a rock flower anemone. Lost fish and inverts due to ongoing outbreak of dinoflagellates. Current Tank Info: 28g aio, 105 watt CF lights, no sump or skimmer. 2 sexy shrimp, tiny frogspawn, tiny toadstool, tiny lps. Started Feb '15 |
11/01/2015, 08:23 PM | #2141 |
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The point isn't to exterminate the dinos. It is to develop an immune system by introducing their predators. They will always exist in small concentrations, but never reach infection or plague levels.
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11/01/2015, 08:27 PM | #2142 |
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I wonder if a large water change from a mature tank will work. The idea is to extract as much of the dinos and then simultaneously introduce the micro biome of the healthy tank.
The closest similarity is when people with compromised micro biomes receive fecal transplants from very healthy donors. This introduces the missing bacteria and results in a significant improvement in health. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fecal_bacteriotherapy
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11/01/2015, 09:21 PM | #2143 | |
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Quote:
Sincerely, Dennis EDIT: Today I'll buy some phytoplankton and start the breeding of a few cultures. Last edited by Kazalla; 11/01/2015 at 09:43 PM. |
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11/01/2015, 10:06 PM | #2144 |
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I was wondering if someone could help me out.I have had a successful reef tank for many years and just upgraded recently to a reefer 450. I sold all coral except a few pieces. I used all my old rock and added new sand. My new tank looked great for about 2 months, and then my glass started getting could, and slimy. All the sudden my rock was covered with long brown stringy snot like substance that I would have to blow off 20min after lights were on. It started to attach to any piece on the coral and they would close slowly killing them. My sand it covered and its like a matt. If I blow it of it floats like stings of bubbles. I tried Chemi Clean and that did nothing. I just went out today and bought a new CUC because mine is all dead. This has been going on for about 3months, and I am not sure but this past week seems not as bad, or I am getting use to it LOL. How can I be sure of what I have?
TI Derek |
11/01/2015, 10:21 PM | #2145 |
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Hi Derek, a microscope (even one for kids) is useful for identification, because you have to differentiate if you have a dinoflagellates, diatoms or a golden algae (Chrysophyceae) infestation. They look very similar.
Sincerely, Dennis EDIT: It's also possible to have a mixed infestation, I have a mix of dinoflagellates (ostreopsis sp. and an unidentified dino type) and some diatoms. EDIT2: Without a microscope you can identify: Cyanobacteria: By adding a sample of them into strong clear alcohol with an alcohol by volume greater than 40% (e.g. vodka) -> if there are cyanos they will color the alcohol red. Dinoflagellates: By rubbing a sample of them between your fingers -> Dinoflagellates have a distinctive awful odor. Please wash your hands after this method or use disposable gloves, some Dinoflagellates containing toxins! Last edited by Kazalla; 11/01/2015 at 11:13 PM. |
11/02/2015, 12:10 AM | #2146 |
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It isn't uncommon for new tanks in the running-in phase (I think your tank is in that phase, even though you use your old live rocks but you have only a few corals in that tank = the length of the running-in phase increases plus no competition against dinoflagellates) that a temporary dinoflagellates infestation can occur. If that is the case the dinos will disappear after a while. I've read often about it in discussion boards.
Sincerely, Dennis |
11/02/2015, 05:32 AM | #2147 |
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Than you you for the reply. I set this tank up and it was going to be my "last tank" so let make it a nice one. I have spent a ton of money on it and at this point ready to take it all down. What you said sounds like what might be happening. I have a huge bloom, and was actually embarrassed to have people stop by, and the has been going on about 3 months, the last week or so they do seem to be decreasing. I only have fish, as all corals are dead. I was wondering if I should dose peroxide, or just try and wit it out at this point? I have a dosing pumps, so it wouldn't be an issue.
Thanks derek |
11/02/2015, 07:09 AM | #2148 |
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If you have no corals in this tank and also no anemones then I would try the lights out method. Corals are weakened by the dino toxins and there is a chance to kill them with this method. A dying anemone can release toxins into the water that can crash your tanks ecology. Not all types of dinos need light, some feed on other organisms but its worth a try.
Cover the tank with several layers of blankets or something like that, the more dark the tank is, the more it will impact on the dino population. Then wait for 3-5 days, in that time don't switch on the light in the tank or remove the blankets, not even for seconds! Sometimes you need to do a second lights out phase to wipe them out. If the dinos are killed the dino clusters will begin to change its color from brown to grey/white. Prepare yourself than to deal with some Cyanobacterias (siphon them out) but they are nothing compared to the dino infestation. Sincerely, Dennis EDIT: There are reports that only one measure is often not enough to defeat dinos. A combination of two different methods has a higher success rate. About dosing peroxide: I can't help you with that sorry, but be careful if you use this stuff. Last edited by Kazalla; 11/02/2015 at 07:29 AM. |
11/02/2015, 08:03 AM | #2149 |
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I absolutely agree with Karimwassef. My dino war began as the result of a marine algae killer. Even though I followed the directions completely, the bio system was trashed allowing the dinosaur to start. UV sterilizer is a MUST. Jump starting the competition with as much live phyto/pods as you can get will tip the nutrient consumption back in favor of the good guy critters. Be ready for a lot of skimmer action as the dead dinos pile up, otherwise you are just setting up the next boutique if you don't. Good luck.
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11/02/2015, 10:01 AM | #2150 | |
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Quote:
One thing I noticed when I did have dinos was that my sand also hardened in several places. I didn't really know what to attribute that to, I thought maybe it had something to do with my calcium. |
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