Added Gem tank, Goldflake angel and few other - ich issue and resolution

[satiger]

Mine is 180G mixed reef tank with few tangs (purple, convict and power brown tang with few small fish). Considering I maintain 35g water in sump, actual water volume in both tank and sump be around 180g considering live rock etc.

Decided to add some more fish and went with gem, goldflake, coral beauty and couple of yellow tang. All were purchased from Live Aquaria and delivered at the same time. after 6 hours of acclimation, they were introduced into the tank.

Four days later saw one of yellow tang had two bulging white spots . Same time convict would rub on the sand bed (same he did when I had ich problem 10 months back). Then saw white spots on gem. Disappointed. I had ich 10 months back and lost few fish ( http://reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2679606 ).

Ended up resolving that by continuous water change, added Vortex diatom filter and feed more with healthy stuff. Eventually remaining fish over came ich and survived.

Since I don't have QT and even to catch individual fish had to remove almost all live rock and corals which I believe will create more stress to fish and make it worse.

Decided to treat DT. Combined with last years readings, read further more about ich remedy on reef. Ok, there is not direct eradication in reef but the fish and the tank could be 'treated' by difference means to cure the fish and give a chance to fight against parasites. Started soaking in garlic before feeding.

Timeline :
Friday - fish were introduced into DT
Tuesday - noticed white dots in yellow and gen tang
Wed - started soaking food in garlic
Thursday - treated with Prohibit Levamisole 3g
Friday - treated with Paraguard 3 caps
Saturday water change
Monday - treated with Paraguard 3 caps

Active live span;
Prohibit Levamisol - 2 hrs
Paraguard - 24 hrs

After much reading, wanted to try Prohibit Levamisole Soluble Powder, ordered using ebay and picked it (luckily local seller). Mixed 3g with water and poured slowly into the tank. Turned off lights and skimmer for 1.5 hrs. Did 35g water change. Absolutely didn't notice any adverse reaction on corals (SPS/LPS) , star fish snails and cleaner shrimps.

Can't say it cured ich or not. At least wanted all floating ones to be killed. Next day no white spots on both yellow and gen tangs. But again it may be going through its cycle and didn't want to take chance. Spoke with LA, their customer service is excellent. Suggested Paraguard and vitamin/supplement booster products. Ordered Marine Selcon, Anti-parasitic Caviar Live Coral and Fish Food Dr. G .

Paraguard doesn't warrant using in reef tank. All readings point to simply not to use it by those who never even tried. Only one post I found using in reef tank with no issue. Decided to treat the DT with few dose (recommended 1 cap for 10g), but I used 3 caps to observe coral reactions. One branch of torch coral withdrawn immediately. Rest all shrank little. Other than that no impact to any corals. Next day all looked normal.

Luckily all fish are eating well. So I kept feeding them more. Hope it helps to fight against parasites.

Today added 4 caps of Paraguard. Last two days didn't notice any white spots including in gem. But too early to say anything.

Each day I feed different type of frozen food soaked either in garlic , Selcon or Anti-parasitic Caviar Live Coral and Fish Food.

I may start using Vortex diatom filter. Will keep updated. What I'm trying is to disturb ich reproduction cycle and kill those floating ones before getting attached to the body.

[mcgyvr]

Id recommended a QT tank/process in your future..

[Joe0813]

that's a lot of money to flush away because you don't want to set up a cheap 30 gallon tank to treat new fish

[alton]

Looking at the size of your purple he might not be playing nice causing stress?

[Uncle99]

Ick can not be removed in a reef system. The fish must be separated and treated with TTM, Hypo or Copper.
DT must go fallow for 72 days.
It is the only tried and true method to break the cycle.

When Ick releases from the host and goes to the substrate, it will divide 100-200 times, become free swimming, attach to the weak, feed, then fall off, go to the bottom and continue the cycle.

Ick away, Ick be gone, Ick X and all that stuff does not work.
If fish get better while using those products, it was not the product, some fish can withstand Ick, and if strong enough, the can be somewhat immune.

Galic certainly has no impact at all on Ick, however potentially the food tastes better, the fish eats, becomes stronger, and fights off the parasite.

White dots can be Ick, Velvet and a number of other diseases.

[MarAquatic]

Just feed and feed heavy.. selcon, garlic and mixed foods if the fish are strong they will make it. I added a moorish idol and it's been 2 weeks still alive had ich the 2nd day and has less of it now

Sent from my SM-N960U using Tapatalk

[HumbleFish]

If you don't plan on pulling & quarantining all the fish; I would at least invest in a large UV or diatom filter for your DT.

[ThRoewer]

I would stop the garlic and instead feed some real immune booster like beta glucan.

Also, you would need to have an open system with a water exchange rate of at least 7 tank volumes per hour (the same rate would be needed for a UV sterilizer or diatom filter to work). Anything below that is just a waste of effort and money.
On top of that, water changes during the day are almost entirely ineffective as the free stages are primarily active at night.

What works is to pull those fish that are most affected and treat them with hyposalinity. After the encounter with the parasite and an at least 6 week recovery period they should have acquired enough immunity against the parasite to get along in the tank despite ich still being there.

And if you have the patience to not add anything new to the tank for at least a year the parasite may actually die out.

In any case you really need to get a quarantine tank for new fish or the next time you might get something into your system that is far more deadly and virulent and on top of that less treatable than Cryptocaryon. Amyloodinium, Uronema, Monogenean ("flukes"), and the like can really make your life miserable and likely kill all of your fish. Of all the above Uronema is the worst as it is an opportunistic parasite that doesn't need fish to survive. It will remain in the system, the rocks, the sand, and coral bases... everything, until you nuke the system with bleach.

Sent from my XT1254 using Tapatalk

[satiger]

Valid and good pointers here, thanks guys.
I should have treated fish before introducing into the tank. Wouldn't necessarily do for 70+ days but at least an hour dip on Paraguard or with copper. This is going to be my std practice going forward.
Agree, garlic doesn't cure parasite, the theory is it’s supposed to increase the appetite and/or taste. Yes, feeding more do help. Learned that during last year's outbreak. During that time even though I lost about 4 fish, the current stock did survived!
The more I read about ich/ick, I start to admire its survivability tactics!!. As ThRoewer said, free stages released more at night particularly between 2AM-6AM (when fish is less active makes it as an easy target!). Current flow is at steady but high, will have to check on flow rate.
Few things I noticed during last year’s out break and this time, fish rubbing the sand bed, rocks etc. Standing against wave maker flow and approaching cleaner shrimp. Definitely all these three behaviors were absent between (10 month).
Last time around convict was the fist one to show symptoms (rubbing) . But highly infected one was purple tank. Managed to pull him out as one point he wasn’t even swimming. To my surprised both survived and put weight too ��. Interesting fact is power brown tang wasn’t infected both times !! Go figure.
As alton said, I am more inclined to believe stress is the main factor for such outbreaks. In other words, to some extend almost all fish/substrate have these parasites but they wait for fish immunity to go down.
Current update : day 10
All fish are eating well.
One of the yellow shows more ‘dots’, other none
Gen is doing well, no spots
Convict seems has some irritation

[ThRoewer]

Ick will ultimately die out if the fish have enough immunity to keep it at bay and you don't replenish the parasites genepool by adding new fish or coral that may harbor the parasite for a year or more. I had precisely that happen.
The way I stressed my fish by neglect and having to move over a whole week during a cold snap in the winter (return pump on one tank broke and the tank was at 18°C for two days(!) while the sump/refugium got boiled) they certainly would gotten an outbreak had the parasite still been in the system

[satiger]

Forgot to add, I do have an over sized UV sterilizer, 40W rated for 325G. Also have diatom filter which I believe definitely helped reduce/eliminate last outbreak. haven't turned on yet.

As alton mentioned I was concerned about new additions being bullied by existing tank mates since all new ones are smaller in size compare to exiting ones. Largest is convict, even though at times he bullies power brown, he keeps power brown in check. Purple tang is an ideal citizen , even bothers anyone.

I was worried gem be bullied by power brown and at the least by convict. But to my surprised, one of the new addition yellow tang simply turned the table and started bulling convict, gen and power brown!. Never knew yellow could be that mean.

Reason I got yellow is to deflect attention on gem. But that got back fired!. That one yellow is causing stress to big tangs and gem. If I could catch, I will donate to LFS.

Even after Prohibit Levamisol and Paraguard treatment, all corals (SPS and LPS) doing fine. No damage yet!. Both cleaner shrimps went hiding, one coming out today.

[satiger]

I ordered one goldflake angel but LA accidentally shipped two. Since I don't have QT, didn't have any other option but to keep both in display with the hope they both won't fight each other. So far both are treating each other well , hope that trend continues.....

[Deahttub]

Originally Posted by satiger

Forgot to add, I do have an over sized UV sterilizer, 40W rated for 325G. Also have diatom filter which I believe definitely helped reduce/eliminate last outbreak. haven't turned on yet.

As alton mentioned I was concerned about new additions being bullied by existing tank mates since all new ones are smaller in size compare to exiting ones. Largest is convict, even though at times he bullies power brown, he keeps power brown in check. Purple tang is an ideal citizen , even bothers anyone.

I was worried gem be bullied by power brown and at the least by convict. But to my surprised, one of the new addition yellow tang simply turned the table and started bulling convict, gen and power brown!. Never knew yellow could be that mean.

Reason I got yellow is to deflect attention on gem. But that got back fired!. That one yellow is causing stress to big tangs and gem. If I could catch, I will donate to LFS.

Even after Prohibit Levamisol and Paraguard treatment, all corals (SPS and LPS) doing fine. No damage yet!. Both cleaner shrimps went hiding, one coming out today.

The UV will control the ick. Make sure the flow is low like 8 watts or lower per gallon...

[satiger]

Originally Posted by Deahttub

The UV will control the ick. Make sure the flow is low like 8 watts or lower per gallon...

Not sure I understand 8 watts or lower per gallon......

[Deahttub]

Originally Posted by satiger

Not sure I understand 8 watts or lower per gallon......

Read this....will explain way better than i can....

http://www.americanaquariumproducts....ilization.html

[MarAquatic]

You can always send a gold flake my way

Sent from my SM-N960U using Tapatalk

[satiger]

Update :
All fish are doing good. No external symptoms nor fish show signs of ich .

Time line of treatment (corrected);

Friday - fish were introduced into DT
Tuesday - noticed white dots in yellow and gen tang
Wed - started soaking food in garlic
Thursday - treated with Prohibit Levamisole 3g
Friday - treated with Paraguard 3 caps
Saturday - one more Prohibit Levamisole treatment 2g then water change
Monday - treated with Paraguard 3 caps
Wed - started Kick Ich and Rally (suggested by Live Aquaria). Followed that to the Ts. Followed the treatment for 10 days with necessary water change in between.

Positive impact;
Non of the above treatments caused any issues to fish. They continue to eat well. At the beginning of this episode, convict tang was not eating well for couple of days compare to how he eats. Within few days picked up his appetite

No corals are dead (both LPS and SPS)

Don't see fish showing symptoms (rubbing,flashing, going in front of power head, looking for cleaner shrimp etc)

Hammer coral - it has grown in size , unbelievable. I remember reading about posting on Prohibit Levamisole caused growth in coral (forgot where I read that). But my hammer reacted very positive it to . Had to move others away due to its sudden growth!.

Had few aiptasia on rocks, they all GONE !!!!!

New fish gained weight. Can see visible 'tummy' on gem and gold flake. Coral beauty grown in size. I was kept over feeding them with soaking variety food with Selcon or Dr Gs Anti-parasitic caviar. I believe building immunity is better way to manage ich in fish.

Negative impact (?) ;
Lost one cleaner shrimp , don't know the reason. Treatment(s) or age. Other one doing good along with snails, brittle sea star and one other starfish, two urchins.

Torch coral showed very sensitive to any of the above treatments I did including Prohibit Levamisole. Immediately after dosing the treatment, I can see it shrinks in size. Most noticeable one with Paraguard. Even though I used just 3 caps of Paraguard (way way less than suggested dosage for fish only tank), can see it didn't like it. Still hasn't recovered to its full size, hoping in coming days/weeks.

Over all very happy with the outcome. No loss of anything except one cleaner shrimp.

Lesson learned - new fish is to go through paraguard dipping for an hour. Don't believe x days in isolated tank with or without copper etc.