Randy's vinegar dosing limit. I found it!

[Wally.B]

It me again. I have one more question.

I've been taking the Vinegar Ramp Up table a bit slower than charted. Which I assume is fine. Too fast is bad.

I'm up to 15ml a day of Vinegar on this 65 SPS only tank.

QUESTION. It is ok to just add the 15ml, like I do ALL AT ONCE at night.

I have the dosing pump, but haven't had time to set it up, to spread the dosing across small amounts over time.

[Wally.B]

It's me again. I have one more question.

I've been taking the Vinegar Ramp Up table a bit slower than charted. Which I assume is fine. Too fast is bad.

I'm up to 15ml a day of Vinegar on this 65 SPS only tank.

I have the dosing pump, but haven't had time to set it up, to spread the dosing in small amounts over time.

QUESTION. It is ok to just add the 15ml, like I do ALL AT ONCE at night.

[tmz]

The heterotrophic bacteria are faculatative; they take free oxygen preferentially but also take oxygen from nitrate when it's used up in hypoxic areas which can be as shallow as the bacterial mulm itself. Some times , with overdosing organic carbon the bacteria can use up all of the free oxygen and exhaust the oxygen from nitrate too creating an anoxic areas with excess organic carbon for sufate reducing bactiera which take oxygen from SO4 and produce sufides and toxic hydrogen sufide.
In areas with less free oxygen ( low flow areas) more nitrate will be used in anerobic activity as the oxygen is taken leaving N ,some of which is assimilated and some of which forms N2, nitrogen gas which bubbles out of the tank.

While the bacteria will take ammonia for N preferentially via a one step aerobic process outcompeting the ammonia oxidizing bacteria that produce nitrate thus keeping nitrate low , it often takes more time,months in some cases for them to get at existing nitrate.

The heterotrophic bacteria are also benthic and need surface areas to colonize like sand and/or live rock, reactors with media for bacteria to grow on even spent GAC seems to workand some note a temporty rise in PO4 and nitrate when media is changed , and some of the bacteria in play go with it. So, I think extra surface area including porous materials are generally a plus with caution to avoid overdosing organic C which can lead to anoxia in some of the low flow areas.

They also seem to have some planktonic life in the water column and can likely colonize particlualte organics contributing to a bloom.

It takes time and controlled dosing to get it all balanced. For me reducing high nitrate before starting organic carbon dosing makes it easier to find a maitnenace dose for a specific aquarium with a lower risk of overdosing.

They consume nutrients like PO4, nitrogen, organic carbon, potassium and iron as they grow. Defficiencies in one of more of these nutrients are possible but unlikely in a fed tank,IME.

[tmz]

It's best to dose vinegar slowly during the photosynthetic period as it it adds a lot of CO2 initially. 15 ml for 65 gallons will drop the pH noticeably when you first dose it . I see a drop of .1 to .2 with half that amount per gallon when dosed at once even during the day. Vodka can be dosed at once without a precipitous downward pH spike. Either or both will lower pH a bit over the long run but the CO2 addition is slower with the vodka ethanol as it requires oxidation to acetic acid which spreads it out.

[Wally.B]

Thanks for above 2 posts.

I am stopping my Vinegar dosing based on my conditions.

The reason for my vinegar dosing was that I was coming out of a major GHA bloom. I scrubbed the tank, and wanted a fresh start with all possible GHA mitigations. So far GHA is very much under control and only a few spots coming back where I didn't scrub under corals.

- I added a Algae Scrubber (which is giving me a good harvest weekly)
- I added a BioFilter Media [MarinePure Ceramic Balls] (and Dosing ZeoBak Bacteria Daily)
- I also turned back on my GFO reactor

- And I was on a journey to slowly ramp up Vinegar dosing.

However reading above posts it appears to me that a Tank can be depleted of Oxygen (my risk should be low),
BUT I also read that solid levels of Nitrate are needed to feed the bacterial.
Possibly a higer P04 reading too.

My current NITRATE=2.5ppm and my PO4=0.03

My fish load is quite small for this 65 Gallon tank (Large Yellow Tang, Madarin, Small Spotbreast Angel, medium Blue/Green Chromis and a Gramma )

So I think I don't really need Vinegar dosing at this point. Correct?

[bertoni]

I suspect that the tank will be fine without vinegar, but every tank is different. Also, the amount of live rock is important.

[tmz]

Many tanks run without carbon dosing but the bacteria you are adding do likely need some organic carbon;whether your tank has enough C to sustain them is unknown.. Many tanks run without bacterial supplements too.

[Wally.B]

Originally Posted by tmz

Many tanks run without carbon dosing but the bacteria you are adding do likely need some organic carbon;whether your tank has enough C to sustain them is unknown.. Many tanks run without bacterial supplements too.

I was thinking about that, so am I trying AquaForest ProBiotic Salt. Also switching over to their Bacteria since my ZeoBak 10ml is just about out.

[tmz]

I don't use any bacterial supplements in tanks with or without carbon dosing.

[Wally.B]

Originally Posted by tmz

I don't use any bacterial supplements in tanks with or without carbon dosing.

Neither have I for over a decade.

But this 1 year old SPS tank had a really Bad run with Cyano, followed by a GHA Algae bloom that was insane. So just wanted to do anything possible to avoid that GHA again.

I also ran out of my Tropic Marin Pro which I have always used...., and for one bucket decided to try the newly available AquaForest Proboitic salt. Figured the complimentary bacteria dosing is all I would do in their system.

Since this thread is about Carbon Dosing and bacteria. Can anyone explain what biotic salts are all about? (Even Tropic Marin has a Bio-Actif Salt). I figure the salt can't possibly have bacteria since bacteria to my limited knowledge doesn't survive in a dry medium. The bio-salts must have a food substance like Carbon to support bacteria. (Even in the manual they highly discourage Carbon dosing when using their bio salt)

[taricha]

Originally Posted by Wally.B

I figure the salt can't possibly have bacteria since bacteria to my limited knowledge doesn't survive in a dry medium. The bio-salts must have a food substance like Carbon to support bacteria. (Even in the manual they highly discourage Carbon dosing when using their bio salt)

You'd think that, but one of the things in the advanced aquarist - bacteria in reef tanks article was that water mixed from a salt that was actual dehydrated sea water had a couple of orders of magnitude more bacteria than water made from salt mixes that were manufactured in other ways.

[Wally.B]

Originally Posted by taricha

You'd think that, but one of the things in the advanced aquarist - bacteria in reef tanks article was that water mixed from a salt that was actual dehydrated sea water had a couple of orders of magnitude more bacteria than water made from salt mixes that were manufactured in other ways.

I still think bacteria dies when totally dehydrated since Life cannot be sustained without water. The Sea Salt might just have more bacterial supporting content in it to support better bacteria growth from seeded bacteria in those comparison tanks. Thus biotic salts are manufactured salts closer to those Sea Water Salts. (Again, I'm not expert, just deducing this from logic). However I always wonder how brine shrimp eggs which are totally dehydrated trigger their "come to life" when salt water, heat and oxygen is added. I read that these brine shrimp eggs can be dormant for hundreds or a thousand years, and still come to life. Dry Bacteria might be the same.

[bertoni]

The bacteria indeed might survive in some sort of spore form, but I agree that the salt products might vary in their capacity to support bacteria. I don't know of a good way to be sure, and I don't think it matters much. Any such effect is going to be very short-lived.

I think the "biotic" salts just have some organics in them. The only likely problem is that such salt products might require aeration for a while when stored, so that the organics don't decay and cause the water to become anoxic.

[tmz]

Tropic Marin
asserts their bio actif salt contains biopolymers(unspecified) ; Polymers contain organic carbon; there is no mention or suggeston of bacteria.

[filbie70]

I'm glad to see this thread still going after 6 years. I am using mangroves for my cyanobacteria, cheato for my phosphate reduce, and just started using vinegar for nitrate redux. I have been between 20-40 ppm on nitrates. I debated using biopellets but the more i read they seem to be pushed more by the manufacurers and the blogs I've seen have eventually resulted in cyanobacteria outbreaks. So, I decided to go with vinegar based on my readings.

I started adding vinegar to my lime water. I use 1 tsp per gallon (5 gallon reservoir) of the brs kalkwasser and added 30 ml of 5% vinegar. I use a Kessil tuna sun at night to grow my macro in the sump at night and dose around the clock as my oxygen is generated in the display during the day and the sump at night, in theory any way. I want to keep the nitrates around 10 ppm as I have a mixed reef and acros that have been doing fine even at 20 ppm, I've done water changes when it gets to 40. Any words of advice on the setup? I'll keep everyone posted if I encounter anything strange. My biggest hope is to kill off some of the xenia that came with my original liverock with the lower nitrates. But, I'm concerned about the hammers, frog spawn, and duncan that I have. Any thoughts/comments are appreciated.

I love this hobby

[bertoni]

I think you'll just have to give it a shot to see how well it'll work. Different tanks respond very differently to carbon dosing, so I don't think we can predict what's going to happen. The approach seems fine. I don't see anything I'd change.

[JDuong916]

Do you guys have experience using chaeto and vinegar dosing? I had to recycle my whole tank due to some unwanted pests so I'm kind of started over. Since the tank was coming back to life I didn't want to use a carbon source. I started off with some chaeto that is now filling the entire fuge. My nitrates are still above 2 and I know from past experience I can get it lower with vinegar. Do you think if I dosed a much lower amount I'd be able to save the chaeto and reduce nitrates? I know Randy uses vinegar and chaeto, but thats about all I know.

[bertoni]

The Chaetomorpha might die back or disappear with carbon dosing. That's hard to predict, but if you go slowly, you probably will be able to see what's happening well before the Chaetomorpha dies back entirely. Different tanks seem to respond very differently to carbon dosing, which isn't very surprising. Our tanks get vast different feeding regimes and have a wide range of animals.

[JDuong916]

I'm just kind of on the fence about how I should lower my nitrates and phosphates. I've had good experience with vinegar dosing. I don't normally start with a low dose, I throw an oz of vinegar in and go from there. I get results much faster and its pretty easy to tell if I'm over dosing. It's just the tank is so new now I don't want to mess up the normal cycle adding a carbon source. I also don't want to kill a big ball of chaeto

So I guess another question is, how long after starting a tank do you think it would be safe to carbon dose?

[tmz]

My experience is that chaeto wanes with carbon dosing and PO4 much below .05ppm ; nitrogren at lower levels also seems unfriendly to it. I use cryptic unlit refugia with live rock.

[JDuong916]

I'm pretty aggressive with my starting dose of vinegar. I think I'll stick with vinegar dosing ad plan on removing the chaeto as soon as it starts to look bad.

How long after you start up a tank do you think its safe to carbon dose?

[bertoni]

I think that it's fine to start at any point after the ammonia is gone, although dosing might easy to tune until the tank is reasonably stable in its stocking and feeding schedule.

[JDuong916]

Sounds good. I'll give it another month or so then start back up on the vinegar dosing. Thank you guys for all the help.

[gentledental4u]

Any updates?

[rsucre]

Those of you using a dosing pump to dose vinegar: Have you experienced that the clear vinyl tubing turns whitish? Is this normal? Should I worry, change the type of tubing or just let it be?

The same kind of tubing being used for Alk remained clear.