Silent and Failsafe Overflow System

[TheFishMan65]

Thanks it was really hard to identify the piece of glass in the picture that forms the fuge box. I looked at it for quite a while trying to figure it out.

[EDIT]
t, I think the answer is see Beans home page. He has the design there without all the discussion. Now if we could get that link stickied.

[stormrider27]

Originally Posted by teesquare

A lot of questions are being asked - that have been asked and answered - most more than once.

I understand it is a long thread - and no one wants to read it alll.
Bean, and Unc - what do you think about a BRIEF re-cap of all the important facts?
1. what works.
2. what does not

The "whys" and "why nots" are far too numerous to include in such.

Is it possible to create a sticky on this thread as such a tool ?

T

I think that is a great idea. I have read a good portion of this thread but to make it from end to end would require that I either quit my job or delay setting up my tank until sometime around Christmas.

A recap would also screen out all the ideas that will not work, could cause a catastrophic failure or diminish the desired end result,

[teesquare]

Originally Posted by TheFishMan65

Thanks it was really hard to identify the piece of glass in the picture that forms the fuge box. I looked at it for quite a while trying to figure it out.

[EDIT]
t, I think the answer is see Beans home page. He has the design there without all the discussion. Now if we could get that link stickied.

Not dis-agreeing with you - but based on the number of times we keep referring that, or please see the first 4 or 5 pages of the original thread.....well - folks tend to think it is easier to ask the same few questions over and over.
It is lazy, and dis-respectful of the OP's ( and the handful of us that try to assist) time.

If it is important to you - READ about it, before you ask. it is just the appropriate, and polite thing to do.

T

[stormrider27]

Originally Posted by TheFishMan65

[EDIT] t, I think the answer is see Beans home page. He has the design there without all the discussion. Now if we could get that link stickied.

I found Bean's site and here is what he wrote "True union ball valves below the Tee are for adjustment of the system and/or isolation of the display if needed. The only valve that is truly needed is the one on the Siphon (middle) standpipe. The other standpipes have valves for versatility and isolation of needed." So it appears to me that you all where right that only the siphon pipe needs a valve and if that valve can be down low, which makes sense to me that it would work better lower rather than higher, I can run the pipes through the wall lower than I had first thought.

I still think a recap is a good idea.

[teesquare]

Did you also notice in the picture that Uncleof6 provided, it showed the location of the valve that is necessary?

The location of it near sump is preferred, for quiet running.

T

[stormrider27]

Originally Posted by teesquare

Did you also notice in the picture that Uncleof6 provided, it showed the location of the valve that is necessary?

The location of it near sump is preferred, for quiet running.

T

I did, thank you Uncleof6 for taking the time to post the pic, and that is where I started to question my reasoning which was based on the first pic Bean posted. Also, all the "white noise" I picked up from reading a good portion of the thread was leaving me a little dizzy and unsure on how to go forward.

Thank you everyone for pointing me in the right direction!

[teesquare]

Excellent! Glad you could glean the information needed to get you on the way to getting your system going.

And - I hope we can get a "synopsis page" posted. It could even be re-posted, or linked along with Bean's homepage?
T

[tinkerman]

Like 11 posts back stormrider27 posted a pic of what I am asking with reusing bulkheads. I don't remember reading anywhere how you would set it up with a 3/4 elbow. Not sure if I am not being clear enough with what I am tring to do. I reread beans site and want to know if this would be correct start with 3/4 elbow, 3/4 to 1 in adapter/bushing, 1 in T, caps, 1 in bulkhead, 1 in pipe to sump. This will give the extra room for air to keep it silent. I know I remeber reading Bean said this should handle 1000 gph. stormrider27 I know I read on the site about all the pipes having valves on them, guessing maybe if you ran the durso to your fuge and needed to regulate the flow.

[RocketSurgeon]

I think a lot of the confusion comes from in the middle somewhere. If you read the first page or two that discusses the system overall and you read his website, I'm not sure there has been much deviation. The problem arises with individuals wanting to use 3/4" in pipe or placing there sump in basements and behind walls, that calls for alternative measures. Their original setup has already deviated from the original plan.
The first I heard of moving the valve closer to the sump came when someone had their sump located in the basement.

I too think a sticky or updated thread would be nice.

I like the latest pic posted by Uncleof6. Very nice.

[teesquare]

The first I heard of moving the valve closer to the sump came when someone had their sump located in the basement.

That might have been my build thread....But - I know I did notoriginate the idea, so it mut have been nearer to the thred start.

Like 11 posts back stormrider27 posted a pic of what I am asking with reusing bulkheads. I don't remember reading anywhere how you would set it up with a 3/4 elbow. Not sure if I am not being clear enough with what I am tring to do. I reread beans site and want to know if this would be correct start with 3/4 elbow, 3/4 to 1 in adapter/bushing, 1 in T, caps, 1 in bulkhead, 1 in pipe to sump. This will give the extra room for air to keep it silent. I know I remeber reading Bean said this should handle 1000 gph. stormrider27 I know I read on the site about all the pipes having valves on them, guessing maybe if you ran the durso to your fuge and needed to regulate the flow.

I think that I understand what you are saying...But I would not increase the pipe size on the siphon for sure....And I don't think I see any benefit to up-sizing the others.

T

[uncleof6]

Originally Posted by tinkerman

Like 11 posts back stormrider27 posted a pic of what I am asking with reusing bulkheads. I don't remember reading anywhere how you would set it up with a 3/4 elbow. Not sure if I am not being clear enough with what I am tring to do. I reread beans site and want to know if this would be correct start with 3/4 elbow, 3/4 to 1 in adapter/bushing, 1 in T, caps, 1 in bulkhead, 1 in pipe to sump. This will give the extra room for air to keep it silent. I know I remeber reading Bean said this should handle 1000 gph. stormrider27 I know I read on the site about all the pipes having valves on them, guessing maybe if you ran the durso to your fuge and needed to regulate the flow.

My first question would be why bother with the 3/4" elbow? It is just going to restrict flow. If you want a 1" siphon make it a 1" siphon from stem to stern. Why complicate it if you don't have to. If you are trying to design a 1" open channel (only one with air in it) it will not work very well, as the smallest PRACTICAL size is 1.25". As far as splitting the open channel, the restriction caused by the needed valves (2 required) probably will cause issues with the open channel. Feed the fuge from a T in the return line.

[uncleof6]

Originally Posted by teesquare

Excellent! Glad you could glean the information needed to get you on the way to getting your system going.

And - I hope we can get a "synopsis page" posted. It could even be re-posted, or linked along with Bean's homepage?
T

Originally Posted by RocketSurgeon

I think a lot of the confusion comes from in the middle somewhere. If you read the first page or two that discusses the system overall and you read his website, I'm not sure there has been much deviation. The problem arises with individuals wanting to use 3/4" in pipe or placing there sump in basements and behind walls, that calls for alternative measures. Their original setup has already deviated from the original plan.
The first I heard of moving the valve closer to the sump came when someone had their sump located in the basement.

I too think a sticky or updated thread would be nice.

I like the latest pic posted by Uncleof6. Very nice. Thank you.

A synopsis might be in order, but then there would be TWO overburdened threads to deal with; and, in a rather short time the "white noise" would obliterate the point of the thread. The only useful way would be to sticky it and lock it down. That would be up to the powers that be.

As far as getting to bean's site, it is already stickied, in every post he makes: Just click on his name then click "visit beananimals homepage". Pretty simple.

[teesquare]

Sounds simple enough Unc....So - back to the solution of READ........

[TheFishMan65]

Once upon a time I tired to summarize both the Herbie and Bean Animal methods. I am willing to try and keep it updated, but I am sure there will be some initial discussion wih my wording. Here is a link
Herbie/Bean Summary
If you folks think this is a reasonable starting place I will take comments and update if. If you think I am way off base well we can just leave it where it is

I have already done this with the DIY LEDs thread and got some nice comments. And I admit the original idea came from Travis (IIRC) on a DIY rock thread. She (IIRC) updated her recipe as it changed and I found it very useful.

[tinkerman]

Here are a few quote from this thread.
A few notes here:

A) the use of the Sanitary Tee (or an elbow) helps to allow the water to cascade down the open channel instead of splashing down. (answering you last question as well) Canting the open channel to the side slightly would also prevent the waterfall effect. As you guessed, the idea behind the open channel is to allow the water to cascade/sheet down the pipe instead of free falling or causing a partial siphon.

B) Smaller open channels standpipes or higher flows through the open channel will create a partial siphon that will force a lot fo air into the standpipe. In general the larger the diamter of the pipe, the more apt the water is to sheet or cascade quietly.

C) As noted in several places in the thread, the setup can be scalled to smaller plumbing for low flow sumps. The 1.5" standpipes are accomodating over 2000 GPH of flow on my 75G tank but I have tested the setup from about 300 GPH and up. A smaller pipe may run fuller, but will run at a partial siphon if it gets too full.

The 1.5" standpipe allows the open channel to flow more water quietly by allowing more air space and less change of gurgling or partial siphon. The larger the open channel diameter, the better.

The larger diameter Siphon and Emergency drains help to increase their capacity by lowering resistance.


Originally posted by duijver
I've been reading through the original thread and this thread now for a couple of weeks (lots of data to sift through...) and I am about to start my design in a few days.

One of the biggest hurdles has been the bulkhead sizes and if I should go with the original specs or decrease it to 3/4". Yes, I know that 1" is the best, but I was conerned more about more problems down the road. I plan on designing this on a 46g bow and having 3 - 1" bulkheads, and the associated 1.5" piping, seemed like a lot given the size. Expecially considering the fact that I don't have much room - 36"x12" at the top side. The internal box would need to be really skinny and this may be impossible with a 1" bulkhead.

You can use 3/4" with success on a tank that size.

These are all quotes that beananimal has posted I will keep looking for the one where he says the 3/4 in set up will handle 100 gph.
I have read the thread the whole thread.

[stormrider27]

Originally Posted by TheFishMan65

Once upon a time I tired to summarize both the Herbie and Bean Animal methods. I am willing to try and keep it updated, but I am sure there will be some initial discussion wih my wording. Here is a link
Herbie/Bean Summary
If you folks think this is a reasonable starting place I will take comments and update if. If you think I am way off base well we can just leave it where it is

I have already done this with the DIY LEDs thread and got some nice comments. And I admit the original idea came from Travis (IIRC) on a DIY rock thread. She (IIRC) updated her recipe as it changed and I found it very useful.

I think that is an excellant start to a summary page

[ToLearn]

I'm trying to pick an appropriate sized pump and I am not sure how much the drains can handle. Hope someone can help. The tank is 300g and the sump is 40g.(well there are multiple utility tanks that house skimmers and what not, but the lower most tank, true sump, is 40g)

There are four bulk heads I can work with for drains in the bottom of an oceanic sump. Two are 1" and two are 3/4" bulk heads. I was thinking of setting it up pretty much the same way as Beans three 1", but using the two 3/4" as emergency stand pipes.

Unfortunately this tank is set in place, in wall and filled with corals and fish, there will be no drilling of more holes.

Using the calculator on beans site I figured:
On a 1" bulk head with an internal diameter of 1.033" with a Submerged Siphon Discharge at 49" head hight
42.36 gpm
2541.63 gph

The height height the pump would have to push would be 6'1".

I am looking at either the ReefFlo Snapper Gold Pump which at 7' does 1500gph. Sound like the one?

[GPrime22]

I will be using this overflow system in my 120g tank and I have a few questions

Does the depth of the overflow box matter? I wasn't planning on making it overly deep but I'm going to be drilling the holes for the bulkhead about 2" (center of the bulkhead will be I believe at about 2.75" below the rim of the tank?) below the rim of the tank (using bulkheads to fit 1.5" PVC with a bushing turning into 2")

The sump is going in the basement to avoid noise from the return pump, skimmer etc... and I think the height of the sump will be about around 6-8 feet below the top of the display tank so should I place the ball valve close to the end of the siphon pipe?

Also what would be a suitable sized return pump to be able to pump at that head height for years without needing to be replaced (getting a submersible return not an external).

wrote this up quickly so sorry for any mistakes etc...

[uncleof6]

Top of the hole needs to be 2.375" down from the top edge of the glass. Math will tell you how deep the box needs to be according to your plumbing dimensions.

Don't really see any reason to bush up to 2" pipe. 1.5" will handle more than you will likely throw at it (3000 gph ++.)

Your question on valve placement was just answered a few posts ago...................................

As for the pump, any pump that will do 1200 gph plus at ~10 foot (allowing for friction loss.) I don't much like submersible pumps for this application. Just as an example, a Dart will do 1520 gph @ 10', @ 146 watts.........that would give you some headroom.

[GPrime22]

ok thanks a bunch, do you know what page it was on where the valve placement was?

not much for external pumps but ill look at it.

[RocketSurgeon]

Originally Posted by gprime22

ok thanks a bunch, do you know what page it was on where the valve placement was?

answer below:

Originally Posted by uncleof6

the best performance is going to be coming out of the tank, to the tee, straight down for a ways, then angle down through the wall. Something along these lines:



i suspect that the op is wanting the tank slammed against the wall, but i don't think in the long run that this is a good idea, as there are many reasons the need may arise to reach in behind the tank, so fwiw.

Originally Posted by stormrider27

uncleof6 you are partially correct. I do want my tank close to the wall be not slammed right up next to it. I can run straight down then angle through the wall but my concern, since i have a hood over the tank, is getting to the gate valves if they are up by the sana-tees. Can i place the valves down by the sump after the pipes have gone through the wall like the in the picture you posted? Also, i thought all three pipes needed valves, in your drawing it looks like only the syphon pipe has a valve?

Originally Posted by rocketsurgeon

only the siphon requires a valve, and said valve should be near the sump when it is some distance away from display tank.

[Volcano1]

Finally my tank up an running using the Bean system. Looks like all of my flow is going through the siphon. I thought, maybe incorrectly, that some was to go down the open channel.Took a litle while , but got it silent now.Do I need to have ANY flow go through the open channel during normal operation?

Thanks,

Todd

[uncleof6]

Originally Posted by Volcano1

Finally my tank up an running using the Bean system. Looks like all of my flow is going through the siphon. I thought, maybe incorrectly, that some was to go down the open channel.Took a litle while , but got it silent now.Do I need to have ANY flow go through the open channel during normal operation?

Thanks,

Todd

Yes you need flow in the open channel. Close the valve on the siphon slowly, raising the water level in the over flow box, till water just flows in the open channel. Directly from the adjustment instructions on the first page of the original thread and bean's website. Jt is not much flow, and it will stay quiet and bubble free. If it gets noisy, or you get bubbles, you went to far, back it off some.

[ToLearn]

Originally Posted by ToLearn

I'm trying to pick an appropriate sized pump and I am not sure how much the drains can handle. Hope someone can help. The tank is 300g and the sump is 40g.(well there are multiple utility tanks that house skimmers and what not, but the lower most tank, true sump, is 40g)

There are four bulk heads I can work with for drains in the bottom of an oceanic sump. Two are 1" and two are 3/4" bulk heads. I was thinking of setting it up pretty much the same way as Beans three 1", but using the two 3/4" as emergency stand pipes.

Unfortunately this tank is set in place, in wall and filled with corals and fish, there will be no drilling of more holes.

Using the calculator on beans site I figured:
On a 1" bulk head with an internal diameter of 1.033" with a Submerged Siphon Discharge at 49" head hight
42.36 gpm
2541.63 gph

The height height the pump would have to push would be 6'1".

I am looking at either the ReefFlo Snapper Gold Pump which at 7' does 1500gph. Sound like the one?

Before this gets buried can someone agree this is the pump best suited for the job?

BeanAnimal would you agree?

[uncleof6]

I have been leaving this one alone... although flow wise vs plumbing size is fine, (for the 1" anyway-- the 3/4" is useless) I think you are hunting elephants with spit wads and a straw. I would not use anything less than a Barracuda, and 1.5" - 2" plumbing, regardless of the size of the pre-drilled holes-- or the amount of modification/work needed.

The battle is not with you, or others in similar situations. It is with the folks building these tanks, and punching puny holes (not to mention fractional size) in big tanks. Good grief Charlie Brown........

In that context, I cannot agree.