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Old 04/09/2018, 12:43 AM   #1
mike810
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Too much light or what???

Tank info:
8x3x2 360gallons
ca:420
mg:1350
alk:7.5 (rock solid)
no3:25
po4:.18
ATI hybrid 8x54w + LEDS

Heavy bioload from fish. I'm wondering if acros can receive too much light and brown out and lose PE. Some of them are brown and some pale. The acros are getting around 400-450+ par, 300 par on the sand bed. My rockscape is not that tall. I know most people will say my nutrients are to blame but here is what I am seeing in my tank.

I had dinos in my tank and that pretty much wiped out my acros. The dinos have been gone for several months now. The few acros that I have left, I remounted to a frag plug and put them on the frag rack, they were all brown and not healthy in general. I placed an order for some frags which was delayed and held up for 2 days before it was delivered. Needless to say, those acros were also brown and unhealthy from the shipping delay. Those all went on the frag rack. So I reached out to a fellow reefer for a pack which had great colors and PE. He had the same lighting as me and told me the par values were similar to mine. So I mounted them to my rock work right away. A couple months have passed and the majority of acros on the rocks have browned and lost most of their PE.

The kicker here is the acros on the frag rack has begun to color up and display good PE. I'm not sure if I should shorten my photo period or try raising the lights up a bit. I find it weird that all my colorful acros that are on the rocks do not have great colors as they once did but the brown acros on the frag racks are now displaying some good color.

Lights are 9" from the water line.
5 blue plus
2 coral plus
1 actinic

LEDs ramp up to 100% for 1 hour and ramp back down (blue + setting). Photo period from 1 to 12

LEDS come on at 1 and off at 12.
4 bulbs come on at 2 and off at 11
all 8 bulbs on 3-10

Any help would be much appreciated.


EDIT: Forgot to mention the acros on the frag rack is getting around 300+ par.


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Old 04/09/2018, 09:34 AM   #2
RobZilla04
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Good read here: http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/sh....php?t=2672718

This is something that I am looking into the relationship of as well since experiencing STN the end of last year.

In short N & P low, keep Alk low; N & P high, raise Alk.


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Old 04/11/2018, 08:01 PM   #3
DesertReefT4r
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Move the light up to 12" and check PAR again 400+ is on the high side of PAR for sps. Most can take it but need a few mo ths of slow acclimation.


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Old 04/11/2018, 08:20 PM   #4
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LEDs at 100% are likely your issue. Unless they are way high over the tank (like 18+ inches), you are probably hurting the coral with the bad waves from the white diodes... most white diodes are not good for coral and have to be kept low.

Is the frag rack on the front or sides and out of the way from the LED direct fire? If so, then I would look to this as evidence, turn the LEDs off and just run all 8 T5s for 10 hours and see if everything it not awesome in a few months.


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Old 04/12/2018, 01:55 AM   #5
mike810
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jda View Post
LEDs at 100% are likely your issue. Unless they are way high over the tank (like 18+ inches), you are probably hurting the coral with the bad waves from the white diodes... most white diodes are not good for coral and have to be kept low.

Is the frag rack on the front or sides and out of the way from the LED direct fire? If so, then I would look to this as evidence, turn the LEDs off and just run all 8 T5s for 10 hours and see if everything it not awesome in a few months.
Thanks for chiming in fellas. I just got my triton test results and they put my po4 at .08 even though my hanna ulr test po4 at .18. Tested the same time I took samples for triton test. Would it be safe to believe triton is correct and hanna is off by .10 points? If that is the case, then my current po4 value would be .06 since I just tested tonight and it's at .16 on hanna ulr.

The frag rack is off to the side and under a 3-4" eurobracing. I forget what the presets are in the ATI hybrid but I don't think the whites are at 100%. I think the only diode at 100 percent is the royal blues and everything else is lower/staggered to get to the preset of the blue plus bulb. I didn't do anything of the settings myself, only the intensity ramps up to 100% for an hour and ramps back down. I'm going to try and work on nutrients and see where that gets me. If I'm still stuck with the same issues after getting my nutrients low then I'll try raising up the lights.

I'm trying to make changes one at a time so I know what the problem is/was.


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Old 04/12/2018, 12:31 PM   #6
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Originally Posted by mike810 View Post
Thanks for chiming in fellas. I just got my triton test results and they put my po4 at .08 even though my hanna ulr test po4 at .18. Tested the same time I took samples for triton test. Would it be safe to believe triton is correct and hanna is off by .10 points? If that is the case, then my current po4 value would be .06 since I just tested tonight and it's at .16 on hanna ulr.

The frag rack is off to the side and under a 3-4" eurobracing. I forget what the presets are in the ATI hybrid but I don't think the whites are at 100%. I think the only diode at 100 percent is the royal blues and everything else is lower/staggered to get to the preset of the blue plus bulb. I didn't do anything of the settings myself, only the intensity ramps up to 100% for an hour and ramps back down. I'm going to try and work on nutrients and see where that gets me. If I'm still stuck with the same issues after getting my nutrients low then I'll try raising up the lights.

I'm trying to make changes one at a time so I know what the problem is/was.
I would actually trust more to the hanna reader than triton. Triton method is more likely to give an off result compared to hanna reader. More so since you can make multiple measurements with hanna reader.

In either case, you have high levels of N and P, but your lak is low. Your calcium is also high for the level of alk. If I were you, I would increase alk levels to ~8.5dKH. I have 3ppm Nitrate, ~0.03ppm phosphate and I keep my alk at 8.3. Your levels are too low for the amount of nutrients.

Also you dont need to run your LEDs at 100% if you already have 8 T5HO. I have RB Photon V2 with 2 supplemental T5HO bulbs. They are 12-13 inches above the water. And still I dont run them at 100%. T5HO bulbs only turn on for about 4 hours, but when they turn on, white red and green diodes on the LEDs turn down to 3% (I keep royal blue, cool blue and UV around 40%). When T5HOs are turn off, peak power for my white red and green diodes are 10% and 40% for blues and UV.


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Old 04/12/2018, 05:38 PM   #7
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I'm wondering if po4 level changes when water sits in vial for many days (trip to triton)


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Old 04/12/2018, 08:47 PM   #8
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Originally Posted by Tripod1404 View Post
Your calcium is also high for the level of alk.
Wat? Natural sea water has alk of about 7dKH and calcium of 420ppm. Where are you getting this info?

http://www.reefkeeping.com/issues/2004-05/rhf/index.php


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Old 04/13/2018, 05:08 AM   #9
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your no3 is too high. color pigments are under the zooxanthellae algae. keep the no3 at lower lvel you should see better results.
your light might be to high. i run my peak from 10-4, led setting custom(10R 255RB 175B)> purple+>C+> AB+B+>AB>custom, none of the setting over 50%. on my rock i have anywhere from 200-350. i start my new piece at the bottom around 120 for 2 weeks, then move them up slowly. some will brown out but regain color within 1 month or 2 after settle into the new spot. time is another thing, it takes time to color up sps.
you run a very blue on t5 side( i do too, 7B+ and 1C+), i setup the LEDs to run on the whiter side to keep the coral getting full spectrum. for me the main thing is the red planet, it has deep red polyp from a friend that run whiter on the t5, within my tank it turn pink/red within 3 weeks, now i setup the led run whiter side, I can see the polyps start to regain the deeper red. only 2 weeks into the new led setting. time will tell, otherwise, i will switch back to 10-14k on t5 side and run the led on the bluer side.


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Last edited by ClownNut; 04/13/2018 at 05:17 AM.
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Old 04/13/2018, 08:28 AM   #10
Tripod1404
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ramseynb View Post
Wat? Natural sea water has alk of about 7dKH and calcium of 420ppm. Where are you getting this info?



http://www.reefkeeping.com/issues/2004-05/rhf/index.php

Natural sea water has a calcium around 410 ppm not 420. For 420ppm, balanced alk value is around 8.5dKH.

https://www.advancedaquarist.com/2002/11/chemistry


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Old 04/13/2018, 02:11 PM   #11
ramseynb
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tripod1404 View Post
Natural sea water has a calcium around 410 ppm not 420. For 420ppm, balanced alk value is around 8.5dKH.

https://www.advancedaquarist.com/2002/11/chemistry


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From the article you sourced:

"2.5 - 4 meq/L or 7 - 11 dKH or 125 - 200 ppm CaCO3 equivalents

Calcium:

380 – 450 ppm calcium ion or 950 - 1125 ppm CaCO3 equivalents

If you are anywhere within these ranges for both parameters, you do not need to perform any correction on your tank chemistry, though you may choose to do so for other reasons. In this sense it makes no difference what the relationship is between the two values. If alkalinity is 4 meq/L, it is not inherently any “better” for calcium to be at 380 ppm or 450 ppm."


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Old 04/13/2018, 03:31 PM   #12
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can you post a tank pic with both groups of corals? have you quarantined for pests?


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Old 04/13/2018, 03:40 PM   #13
Tripod1404
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If alkalinity is 4 meq/L, it is not inherently any “better” for calcium to be at 380 ppm or 450 ppm."
Any better is a subjective way to put this. 4 meq/L alk with 380 ppm Ca is not balanced in comparison to the ratio NSW. It means there is excess carbonate compared to calcium. When something becomes excess, it artificiality makes the other component limiting, when it is not limiting in that way in nature.

http://www.reefkeeping.com/issues/20...ture/index.php


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Old 04/13/2018, 07:36 PM   #14
ramseynb
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Any better is a subjective way to put this. 4 meq/L alk with 380 ppm Ca is not balanced in comparison to the ratio NSW. It means there is excess carbonate compared to calcium. When something becomes excess, it artificiality makes the other component limiting, when it is not limiting in that way in nature.

http://www.reefkeeping.com/issues/20...ture/index.php
I'm not trying to be argumentative. What I will say is, IME, chasing numbers too much has led to bad times. I've had much better success when I aim for stability and not a number. Not to mention, I'm not convinced that our test kits are accurate enough for that level of precision. I'll test to get a baseline and (slowly) dose if something's really off but if my corals look happy and I have some growth, I'm not going to dose anything because the number's not perfect. All it's done for me is lead to headaches but YMMV.


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Old 04/17/2018, 12:33 AM   #15
mike810
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Here is what the corals look like today. No changes have been made except for nutrients. I started dosing redsea nopox a couple days ago to try and combat the high nutrients.

Tested tonight and no3 is just a tad lower than 25ppm and po4 is at .08. Salifert and hanna ulr.




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Old 04/17/2018, 12:34 AM   #16
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Old 04/17/2018, 12:35 AM   #17
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Old 04/17/2018, 12:38 PM   #18
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@mike810 , They all seem to be good. Some have alk burns on them and deep water/smoothskin acros look a bit too pale (unless they are pale variants) but aside from that they look okay.

What is your alk consumption rate, or to be more precise did it increase or decrease recently? One way I use to judge how happy my SPS are is to check alk consumption rate. Generally alk consumption will drop significantly if they are unhappy.

I try to keep nutrients as low as possible without a drop in alk consumption. For me it is 2-3 ppm Nitrate and 0.03 ppm phosphate. IF I go lower alk consumption lowers as well. Keep in mind these values would be very tank specific (based on light, DOS, fishload, etc), so you should find your own sweet spot.

Also, I love your fish


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Old 04/17/2018, 01:26 PM   #19
mike810
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Originally Posted by Tripod1404 View Post
@mike810 , They all seem to be good. Some have alk burns on them and deep water/smoothskin acros look a bit too pale (unless they are pale variants) but aside from that they look okay.

What is your alk consumption rate, or to be more precise did it increase or decrease recently? One way I use to judge how happy my SPS are is to check alk consumption rate. Generally alk consumption will drop significantly if they are unhappy.

I try to keep nutrients as low as possible without a drop in alk consumption. For me it is 2-3 ppm Nitrate and 0.03 ppm phosphate. IF I go lower alk consumption lowers as well. Keep in mind these values would be very tank specific (based on light, DOS, fishload, etc), so you should find your own sweet spot.

Also, I love your fish
I didn't know there was an @Tripod1404 function here on RC, cool! I notice a slight increase in alk consumption as the nutrients dropped a bit. I had to turn up the alk dial on the calcium reactor which is always a plus!


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Old 04/17/2018, 02:13 PM   #20
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@mike810 , its a new function added this weekend. Cool and very useful.


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Old 04/17/2018, 07:23 PM   #21
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I would think you probably have a little more light than you need..
photoperiod seems good but maybe the intensity on the leds could come down a bit..
I see absolutely nothing wrong with your parameters- if they are stable.
i think your alk to calcium ratio is perfectly fine and i have pretty much never (on purpose!) had my alk above 7.5 - more often below 7 and i have had nutrients much higher than yours for extended periods of time..
corals do look a bit... not entirely happy.. but not horrible..
they don't seem particularly brown.. but yes, not thriving...
My suspicion is that your old corals are still recovering from your battles with dinos- but just starting to recover and have acclimated to or are not getting as much light as the new frags that may be stressed by too much intensity..
starting nopox will create a new set of parameters for all or your not entirely stable corals to contend with which may throw them all off again..
If you really want to make changes in stages and only one at a time and nuisance algae is not a problem, I'd suggest holding off on nopox and just reducing lighting a bit and give the old and new corals more time to acclimate..
This is assuming you keep parameters nice and steady..
It can take acros several months to recover from the craziness of battling dinos and from light stress..
Also, I have never met a po4 test i have trusted..
last weekend, I used my red sea test, hanna ulr and hanna po4 tests... i got .08, .16, .12 respectively... so now i have an idea of where p is but then again, not really.. as has been suggested above watching trends in results may be better than focusing on one single result..
maybe you just need to give the tank some time... I know, that's the single most annoying thing a reefer can hear... we just want to do something.. after all didn't we get into this hobby to sit around... we are all control freaks!


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