Anyone Thinking of Dumping LEDS and going back to Halides

[Tripod1404]

Originally Posted by markalot

For those with Halide experience, how many lamps and what total wattage would be needed to light that tank?

It has been years since I used MHs. But Imo one 150W bulb for every 2 feet of tank is enough(so for a 6 feet tank 3 bulbs). But this is kinda tank dependent, if your tank is too deep, or too wide, or if you want to have SPS corals all the way to the bottom, you might want 250Ws.

I use to have two 150Ws at the sides and one 250W in the center for a 6ft tank.

Things might have changed though.

[shred5]

What funny it is just like politics when it comes to this stuff. The company I work for does all this stuff and their is so much bias in this thread it is not funny. It just like politics picking and choosing your data to support your ideas when it is not the whole picture. Also just because it is on the internet does not mean it is true. You pick your data from a led manufacture it is bias towards led and vise versa. Some of the data is not even true. I bet there is info on the internet that says the moon is made of cheese or we have not been to the moon if someone looks hard enough. this is the whole thread in general not just the last posts, it is not really aimed at anyone. some of the info is actually good and in a few cases I have learned something... Who is going to light fair tomorrow? I will be there?

Honestly we specify fixtures for pretty much everything so we know what goes in. We do work all around the world too even though about 99 percent of it is here in the United states. We do street lighting, we even have done a handful of grow facilities for pot.

In some cases the client tells us what they want or like some high end retail has a interior designer.

I am going to put it this way halides are not going away anytime soon. There are too many current installation even if leds are being installed in new installations more than halides. Then again there are some halides still going in. Right now I am designing a highbay installation that is led for a truck maintenance building and yes this would have been halides 5 years ago.

I mean they still make PC/compact fluorescent lamps in all flavors for reef aquariums and they never really were in.

[Pslreefer]

Originally Posted by shred5

What funny it is just like politics when it comes to this stuff. The company I work for does all this stuff and their is so much bias in this thread it is not funny. It just like politics picking and choosing your data to support your ideas when it is not the whole picture. Also just because it is on the internet does not mean it is true. You pick your data from a led manufacture it is bias towards led and vise versa. Some of the data is not even true. I bet there is info on the internet that says the moon is made of cheese or we have not been to the moon if someone looks hard enough. this is the whole thread in general not just the last posts, it is not really aimed at anyone. some of the info is actually good and in a few cases I have learned something... Who is going to light fair tomorrow? I will be there?

Honestly we specify fixtures for pretty much everything so we know what goes in. We do work all around the world too even though about 99 percent of it is here in the United states. We do street lighting, we even have done a handful of grow facilities for pot.

In some cases the client tells us what they want or like some high end retail has a interior designer.

I am going to put it this way halides are not going away anytime soon. There are too many current installation even if leds are being installed in new installations more than halides. Then again there are some halides still going in. Right now I am designing a highbay installation that is led for a truck maintenance building and yes this would have been halides 5 years ago.

I mean they still make PC/compact fluorescent lamps in all flavors for reef aquariums and they never really were in.

Well they do teach the differences between bias and non biased sources in college, and how to use credible vs non credible sources, so the bias rests squarely on those that either don’t know any better or don’t care about anything but their own biased opinion.

[alton]

In commercial, residential, and industrial applications LEDS save a ton of money and energy. But not on my tank, I use half the watts, but run the fixtures twice the time as I did with my old Halides in the summer. Something I learned last year when my first electric bill came and there was no savings.
What I was trying to get with my statement was no matter what technology we invent to save energy, Americans will still find a way to waste it on something else. I will use my family as an example, my three kids grew up in a 2,000 sqft home with one tv and one computer. My sons family lives in a 3500 sqft home twice as efficient but has two ac units and two heaters. They have his and her computers, along with each child has a notebook and a smart phone. Their two cars get twice the mileage as mine and my wife's did years ago, but one kid is in select soccer and travels, the second is in dance class and travels, lucky the third one only plays sports locally.
Colleges and biased opinions, most have plenty.

[oreo57]

Originally Posted by jda

If the growth is 30-40% more with MH, and it compounds, then who does not want more product to trade or sell? 30-40% more of compounding interest adds up over a few periods.

Of course there are spectrum issues. The only way to cut down the wattage is to cut spectrum.

They grew hippie lettuce for sale. That is all. All of them have a few orchids, tomatoes and other houseplants lying around, but The Chronic was all that I was interested in since it was my assignment.

The Strategies Unlimited team studied the global market starting in 2016 to understand where traditional lighting has been used in horticulture and how applications such as vertical farms might add to that to project the potential market. In 2016, the global market for horticultural lighting was about $3B and was dominated by high-pressure sodium (HPS) lighting. LEDs represented a $100M (million) slice of that market in 2016. By 2022, Smallwood projects that the total market will grow to around $7B with LEDs representing $2B.

But the potential in the total market may be far greater as growers better understand the technology. Moreover, the aforementioned numbers did not include legalized recreational or medicinal cannabis. LED-based products have much higher initial costs and payback periods can be lengthy in horticulture. Smallwood, however, said that even relatively small yield improvements attributable to LEDs in a high-value crop like cannabis can slash payback times. He stated that a 5% yield increase can bring payback to under a year, and that LEDs will dominate the cannabis market to deliver more than $350M in revenue by 2022.

Overall, the market presentations at SIL 2018 were more positive than we have seen since at least 2015. That said, the market remains volatile and the remainder of 2018 is sure to be exciting.

http://www.ledsmagazine.com/articles...66&bid=2093990

Just for fun:

So what is the secret sauce that Philips and the 30 partners came up with? Philips is not saying. “The recipe is part of the knowledge that we have built over time, and cannot openly be shared,” a Philips spokesperson told LEDs Magazine.

The recipe appears to be in the 400–700-nm range of light (the PAR or photosynthetically active range, which more or less corresponds with visible light). Philips said the recipe is available with the newest generation of GreenPower LED toplighting, which it says delivers 500 or 600 micromoles per second (µmol/s) per light module. In horticultural lighting, micromoles represent the number of photons in the PAR range that hit a surface. Philips claimed the new toplights are very energy efficient, delivering 3 micromoles per joule (µmol/J). Philips guarantees the lights to last 35,000 hours.

Philips' rose recipe is yet another example of how the horticultural industry is using tunable LED lighting to optimize crops, including the use of the ultraviolet spectrum (not part of the PAR range) to enhance the appearance, potency, smell, and taste of plants, as LEDs has covered many times, including in its Horticultural Lighting Conference post-event report.

While Philips can now claim that its toplighting improves rose yields and size, it told LEDs that its research to date has not included rose fragrance. Whether a more aromatic rose is to be or not to be remains to be seen under the LED lights.

http://www.ledsmagazine.com/articles...sier-rose.html

If photons coming out of the fixture at all downward angles are considered (180°), the capital cost of the most efficient 400-W LED fixtures we tested is five to seven times more per photon than the 1000-W, double-ended, electronic ballast HPS fixtures (Gavita, ePapillion, Table 3). The high capital cost of LEDs makes the five year cost per mole of photons more than twice that of HPS fixtures (Table 3 and Figure 5A).
Conclusions

The most efficient HPS and LED fixtures have equal efficiencies, but the initial capital cost per photon delivered from LED fixtures is five to ten times higher than HPS fixtures. The high capital cost means that the five-year cost of LED fixtures is more than double that of HPS fixtures. If widely spaced benches are a necessary part of a production system, LED fixtures can provide precision delivery of photons and our data indicate that they can be a more cost effective option for supplemental greenhouse lighting.

http://journals.plos.org/plosone/art...l.pone.0099010

2014.. Will update it if I can...

mogul-base HPS fixtures (i.e. Sunlight Supply, 1.02 µmol per joule).

From previous:

toplights are very energy efficient, delivering 3 micromoles per joule (µmol/J)

One thing though, AFAICT most growers use HPS not MH..

[jda]

Would you expect any other statement from a LED insider magazine? Consider the source on this... I can only really tell you what I found while doing a job... not a single grow house within 100 miles of me used LED. The laughed when I asked. About 1/4 of the homes that I got into grow some kind of weed. Most set the plants outside from May until Sept when growth goes crazy and there are all kinds of lights used for these 1-4 plant setups... T5s, T8, T12 HO and VHO, MV, HPS, MH, LED... it is all over the place. Most of these people spend more on ventilation hoods than lights.

[jda]

Originally Posted by markalot

For those with Halide experience, how many lamps and what total wattage would be needed to light that tank?

With sinularia, lobos and euhphilia at the bottom, probably 5x 150w HQI on a good reflector.... so 750 watts. Maybe 1250 watts of 250s if you wanted a bunch more output and punch down deeper. The acros are all up near the top, which is smart.

The wattage would be the same to light it the same way... there are no efficiencies unless you cut spectrum or output.

This is not a high light tank, so the 750w of running SOLs could be replaced by 750w of Halides or T5s.

[oreo57]

Originally Posted by jda

Would you expect any other statement from a LED insider magazine? Consider the source on this... I can only really tell you what I found while doing a job... not a single grow house within 100 miles of me used LED. The laughed when I asked. About 1/4 of the homes that I got into grow some kind of weed. Most set the plants outside from May until Sept when growth goes crazy and there are all kinds of lights used for these 1-4 plant setups... T5s, T8, T12 HO and VHO, MV, HPS, MH, LED... it is all over the place. Most of these people spend more on ventilation hoods than lights.

America is slow on the uptake..

And you think ma and pa

Most set the plants outside from May until Sept when growth goes crazy and there are all kinds of lights used for these 1-4 plant setups.

growers are industry???

Maybe I'm mis-reading it.. maybe not..
Besides its more "future predictions" than current..

If you noticed everything I posted isn't exactly LED "rosy"..

[markalot]

If you search YouTube for

Sanjay 500 Gallon Mega Reef

You can find a recent video of his tank, all LED, beautiful acros.

He uses 8 Radion G4 pros rated max wattage at 190w.

1520 watts total all at full power.


Someone needs to make an LED fixture that can also use reflectors to get more of the wattage into the tank.

[Tripod1404]

Originally Posted by markalot

If you search YouTube for

Sanjay 500 Gallon Mega Reef

You can find a recent video of his tank, all LED, beautiful acros.

He uses 8 Radion G4 pros rated max wattage at 190w.

1520 watts total all at full power.


Someone needs to make an LED fixture that can also use reflectors to get more of the wattage into the tank.

Yeah that tank is epic. It always surprised me how close he keeps his light to the surface of the water. I always had better growth by keeping them higher above the tank. Although his tank is so large, the scale might cause the light to look close when they are not that much.

For the reflectors. I think it would be kinda unnecessary for LEDs. Light LEDs produce is already directional. So there is not much of a light loss due to diffusion to the sides or back towards the chip. Some manufactures do add individual reflectors around the optics (mainly lenses) as it might cause some light to diffuse sideways or backwards and a reflector directs them back.

[xabo]

Was running 3X400 halides until:

[albano]

250w warped the cross braces of my 300g acrylic many yrs ago.

[jestronix]

Ummmm

https://youtu.be/U7FHI6ZYL2M

Black boxes !

[schwantz]

Originally Posted by jestronix

Ummmm

https://youtu.be/U7FHI6ZYL2M

Black boxes !

If results can be got as good as this with black boxes, who needs anything else?

Sure you may get better results, but this is good enough for most.

Sent from my SM-G935F using Tapatalk

[Bpb]

He also goes in and removes/replaces every diode annually I believe it was. Or every 2 years. Even if youre using the $1 per diode bridgeluxes that requires substantial diy effort and a total wash in cost savings.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

[oreo57]

$110/ 2 years.. Certainly not horrible.
Per box of course. just consider each box a 150W MH fixture..
Double that and buy new boxes every 2 years..
want to save labor? $70
https://sbreeflights.com/sbox-upgrad...pcb-board.html

No I never consider labor costs of a "hobby" .. silly concept..

anyone ever caculate the "cost" of changing water or maintenance.. or even feeding for that matter..

[Bpb]

Originally Posted by oreo57

$110/ 2 years.. Certainly not horrible.
Per box of course. just consider each box a 150W MH fixture..
Double that and buy new boxes every 2 years..
want to save labor? $70
https://sbreeflights.com/sbox-upgrad...pcb-board.html

No I never consider labor costs of a "hobby" .. silly concept..

anyone ever caculate the "cost" of changing water or maintenance.. or even feeding for that matter..

I wasn’t trying to quantify a dollar amount for the effort spent in replacing every diode. Simply that it is a job to be done, and not everyone is fast and efficient at it. I’m not arguing which is better or worse. Use what you like. Swapping every diode out over 3-4 fixtures just seems like a giant pain unless you simply enjoy doing that kind of stuff. I’d rather keep a tank as absolutely hands off as possible. Even pruning a refugium is an annoying chore so I don’t use them. I guess single people or retirees with an empty nest wouldn’t mind the extra labor as much. To each their own. Everyone is in a different season of life


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

[oreo57]

Originally Posted by Bpb

I wasn’t trying to quantify a dollar amount for the effort spent in replacing every diode. Simply that it is a job to be done, and not everyone is fast and efficient at it. I’m not arguing which is better or worse. Use what you like. Swapping every diode out over 3-4 fixtures just seems like a giant pain unless you simply enjoy doing that kind of stuff. I’d rather keep a tank as absolutely hands off as possible. Even pruning a refugium is an annoying chore so I don’t use them. I guess single people or retirees with an empty nest wouldn’t mind the extra labor as much. To each their own. Everyone is in a different season of life


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

I totally agree w/ you.. Was just putting some real numbers and options..
@ $70 you can replace the board or in some cases entire units every 2 years.

$140/ yr for 4 lights..
Prob could do 3yr.. or not..Under $100/yr

Yea can be a "wash" or not..

Try not to talk "savings" w/ any light.. more about features.
TCO is important though.

[jestronix]

Is it just cheap diodes or the same goes for Cree ? I mean how many people are running their G4s at full power ? Would they dim after two years too ? 80% of people are probably out of the hobby before they notice their leds dimming from use. I don't think anyone will have the same lights for 12 years to get their 50000 hours either.

Personally I think the black boxes have terrible heat sinks and thermal compound, I think this maybe the reason for high degradation. Both the black boxes I had the power supplies died after a year.

[sfsuphysics]

Originally Posted by markalot

If you search YouTube for

Sanjay 500 Gallon Mega Reef

You can find a recent video of his tank, all LED, beautiful acros.

He uses 8 Radion G4 pros rated max wattage at 190w.

1520 watts total all at full power.

His old lighting setup was 3 - 400 watt MH bulbs in Lumenarc reflectors. Which on the surface is less power, but the reality is with the LEDs you very rarely have full power (although I'm not sure his specific setup).

The downside is switching over, 8 Radions x $800 per = $6400, that's a LOT of cheddar to swallow for many people, yeah even if you do have a huge tank. Of course we don't know if his influence in the hobby got him a "favorable price" directly from Ecotech either

Someone needs to make an LED fixture that can also use reflectors to get more of the wattage into the tank.

You don't need to, the internal lens and external lens do that, or reflectors for some brands (Maxspect come to mind as they don't use secondary lenses and instead use reflectors). The "waste" from LEDs is heat, and that's not going to light your tank.

[oreo57]

TIC. TOK..

Prices for these products will increase by an average of 8 per cent on 16 July. Previously quoted projects will be honoured according to the originally quoted terms and conditions.

Venture has been more affected then most by the LED revolution over the last decade. The company’s success has been built on metal halide, or high intensity discharge, lamps which were extremely popular in retail, commercial and industrial applications. However, they have lost ground rapidly as LED luminaires have been able to deliver higher lumen packages.

Venture’s announcement follows a similar one by Eaton on Thursday 17 May that it is putting up its prices by 6 per cent, and before that, on 11 May, a statement by Acuity Brands that it was putting up prices by 6 per cent. It’s certain that other brands will follow in the coming weeks as lighting manufacturers reassert themselves to improve profitability following years of falling prices for lighting equipment.

http://luxreview.com/article/2018/05...9a61d78578168c


http://luxreview.com/article/2018/05...w-says-tamlite

Tamlite, which sells over £60 million worth of luminaires annually, says the proposed update to Europe’s Ecodesign laws doesn’t go far enough.
‘We’ve proven that 100 lm/W can be achieved with luminaires, even without regulatory pressure, says Tamlite Lighting technical manager Stephen Biggs

The EU rules will see the effective banning of both tungsten halogen and compact fluorescent as light sources by 2020, as it brings in a minimum efficiency requirement of 85 lumens per watt and a maximum standby power of 0.5W on all light sources.

However, Stephen Biggs, technical manager of Tamlite Lighting, one of the UK’s largest privately owned lighting manufacturers, told Lux: ‘We welcome these measures driving higher efficiency requirements for luminaires but feel they don’t go far enough. Tamlite believes the regulations should be raised to 100 lumens per watt as a minimum.’

[alton]

Not sure why you posted the last info on CFL's and Halogen Lamps since we do not use either on aquariums? CFL's have always been liars, the lamp says 26 watts but it actually draws 52 because of its poor design built in ballast. Halogen lamps get super hot for the size of lamp wasting energy. As Trump continues to protect American companies and profits, imported materials will continue to rise. Our steel conduit is up 50% just this year. I thought the part of health care causing the increase was so true knowing how it has caused crazy price increases in our company since something was implemented.

[oreo57]

Originally Posted by alton

Not sure why you posted the last info on CFL's and Halogen Lamps since we do not use either on aquariums? CFL's have always been liars, the lamp says 26 watts but it actually draws 52 because of its poor design built in ballast. Halogen lamps get super hot for the size of lamp wasting energy. As Trump continues to protect American companies and profits, imported materials will continue to rise. Our steel conduit is up 50% just this year. I thought the part of health care causing the increase was so true knowing how it has caused crazy price increases in our company since something was implemented.

CFL's were/are used.. halogens, just for fun..
https://www.marineandreef.com/65W_Ac...SABEgLVq_D_BwE

A CF is a CF.. pretty much..

[sirreal63]

It is very hard to predict the future. I remember when tube amplifiers were replaced by transistors and solid state circuitry. Tube amps are still around and more popular than ever with.

[alton]

http://luxreview.com/article/2018/04...nned-in-europe
This article shows the self ballasted CFL's, The CFL you posted is a U bent T5 also called a CFL which requires the same ballast as a T5. Although I am still not sure why these are still made? And if they are banned I don't think anyone here would care since they have always been more expensive than T5 lamps and loose there effectiveness in 8 months.