Best way to treat all fish

falconut · 09/12/2017, 07:46 AM

Okay, recently moved all my fish from my 90 gallon over to a new 180 gallon. Went from reef to fish only this time. I added a few fish after treating and everything was looking great.

The problem came when I used another local store. This store uses large vats to quarantine all the incoming fish. Sometimes they medicate and sometimes they don't depending on how they look. I was told that the fish I wanted were done quarantine and ready to go, so I picked up two butterflies. They didn't require treatment through quarantine.

They told me they were fine to place directly into my display, so I did. I turned the lights off after adding them, so didn't really get a good look at them. The next day I was able to inspect them and to my surprise they had some ich spots on them and there mouths were seriously bruised. I immediately pulled both the fish and through into my QT tank. I did contact the store and they said I could exchange them for something else.

They had an angel and a different butterfly I liked that were in a separate vat. So, I inspected them better this time and was told they had them for 10 weeks. Again, directly that they were fine to go right into my display tank.

The one thing I noticed over the next few days was that the angel would shake his head back and forth when eating food. And didn't really eat very much. After several days he just stopped eating, but was shaking his head more. So, I did a little research and most noted as a sign of flukes. I managed to get him out several days later and did a f/w dip. Yep, after a 5 minute dip there were some flukes at the bottom of the container. The angle went to a separate tank, but perished a few days later.

I started to noticed some of the other fish now had slightly torn or semi cloudy fins. So, I dosed the 180 with prazipro and all of the fish slowly started to look better. So, after treatment I fired up the skimmer and they were looking good. Well, except I noticed a couple of my fish had a couple spots.

Great, I guess the B/Fs were in my tank long enough. Only a couple tiny spots here and there. Since everybody recommends not to treat a DT I just waited. The spots slowly disappeared and finely went away. I know the cycle of these little buggers. After a week or so, I now notice that about 4-5 of the fish have spots again. So, looks like it's here to stay.

I still have the 90 gallon tank setup with just sand on the bottom and a single fish in it. I'm guessing the best method would be to transfer the fish to the 90 and treat with cupramine. To avoid destroying my nitrifying bacteria, I'd prefer to leave the sand in the tank and just add some PVC fittings. I know I'll have to add more to get the correct level, but would there be any other negatives to doing this? I'd be moving a flame angel, female BT trigger, yellow tang, male lyretail anthias, leopard wrasse, blue chromis, green chromis, watchman goby, saddled BF, blueline BF, longnose hawk and small hippo tang.

Any advise would be appreciated.

falconut · 09/12/2017, 10:11 AM

The 90 gallon I'm looking to treat with cupramine has a bunch of astrea stars. Should I just leave them and see if they die and if they do, start removing them? Or do I need to remove them first? They're small, so not sure if they die if they'd cause a spike.

Also, from reading, I'm guessing 0.4 is the level to start with.

JustinM · 09/12/2017, 10:47 AM

It's going to be hard to treat with sand in the tank. The sand will absorb it and your levels will jump around. I imagine there is a point where the sand can't absorb more, but it may jump around a bit.

Do not start with .4 either, that may kill some fish. You should follow the directions and do half the dose, .25, then wait 2 days and do the other dose. It also doesn't hurt to take longer. The only time you should ever go right to therapeutic is when you're dealing with velvet.

As for the astreas, I don't think they should cause too much a spike depending how many there are. I would remove as many as you can though.

falconut · 09/12/2017, 11:09 AM

I just spoke with Seachem and they said the sand will absorb some of the cupramine until it's saturated then it won't effect the levels. I'll just have to check it a few extra times after reaching the correct level to be sure it stayed there.

Sorry, I wasn't clear, I plan on slowly ramping it up to 0.4, maybe 1/4 doses every day or two.

I usually see a lot of stars on the glass in the AM, so I'll try and pull them the next chance I get.

JustinM · 09/12/2017, 11:19 AM

With my wrasses when I qt them(I use sand for them)it's just a little annoying. It takes time for the sand to absorb the cupramine. I would have my levels up and go to test the next day and I would drop from .45 to below therapeutic. Just make sure to test everyday and if it goes below .35 you need to start over time wise.

It may take you quite a few weeks for it to absorb. I would use glass jars filled with sand and it still would take a few weeks to level out. I imagine a 90 with sand may take a long time.

It sounds like you have a good plan though. How long are you going to let your 180 go fallow?

falconut · 09/12/2017, 01:02 PM

I was hoping it would absorb in a few days, but from your experience it may be longer. At least that will be time against going fish less in the 180. I always thought you only needed to go 6 weeks, but I've be seeing people saying longer. So, I'm not sure yet.

JustinM · 09/12/2017, 01:40 PM

If it was ich, the longest tomont(time encysted) has been 72 days. Once the trophont drops off the fish it is usually encysted within 30 hours, there it stays a tomont for 72 days(very rare but I don't want to ever take that chance, it is usually 7-14 days)once released from its tomont, the "now" theronts must find a host within 48 hours. This is why we suggest 76 days for 100% eradication. I take no chance and just do 90 days but that is me.

falconut · 09/12/2017, 04:45 PM

Ok, thanks for the explanation.

Powder Blue107 · 09/13/2017, 03:15 PM

Youre going to have copper leaching out here and there so be especially careful with the copper level and use a good copper test kit like seachem or salifert. Api is notorious for false readings. Good luck

JustinM · 09/13/2017, 03:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Powder Blue107

Youre going to have copper leaching out here and there so be especially careful with the copper level and use a good copper test kit like seachem or salifert. Api is notorious for false readings. Good luck

API reads chelated copper where cupramine is ionic copper

falconut · 09/13/2017, 05:07 PM

I have the Seachem test kit arriving tomorrow. I plan on raising the level slowly, like 5 doses instead of 2. I want to give it time to absorb, plus not shock the fish. None of them are in desperate need of treatment at the moment.

09/12/2017, 07:46 AM	#1
falconut Registered Member Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: Blackwood, NJ Posts: 3,813	Best way to treat all fish Okay, recently moved all my fish from my 90 gallon over to a new 180 gallon. Went from reef to fish only this time. I added a few fish after treating and everything was looking great. The problem came when I used another local store. This store uses large vats to quarantine all the incoming fish. Sometimes they medicate and sometimes they don't depending on how they look. I was told that the fish I wanted were done quarantine and ready to go, so I picked up two butterflies. They didn't require treatment through quarantine. They told me they were fine to place directly into my display, so I did. I turned the lights off after adding them, so didn't really get a good look at them. The next day I was able to inspect them and to my surprise they had some ich spots on them and there mouths were seriously bruised. I immediately pulled both the fish and through into my QT tank. I did contact the store and they said I could exchange them for something else. They had an angel and a different butterfly I liked that were in a separate vat. So, I inspected them better this time and was told they had them for 10 weeks. Again, directly that they were fine to go right into my display tank. The one thing I noticed over the next few days was that the angel would shake his head back and forth when eating food. And didn't really eat very much. After several days he just stopped eating, but was shaking his head more. So, I did a little research and most noted as a sign of flukes. I managed to get him out several days later and did a f/w dip. Yep, after a 5 minute dip there were some flukes at the bottom of the container. The angle went to a separate tank, but perished a few days later. I started to noticed some of the other fish now had slightly torn or semi cloudy fins. So, I dosed the 180 with prazipro and all of the fish slowly started to look better. So, after treatment I fired up the skimmer and they were looking good. Well, except I noticed a couple of my fish had a couple spots. Great, I guess the B/Fs were in my tank long enough. Only a couple tiny spots here and there. Since everybody recommends not to treat a DT I just waited. The spots slowly disappeared and finely went away. I know the cycle of these little buggers. After a week or so, I now notice that about 4-5 of the fish have spots again. So, looks like it's here to stay. I still have the 90 gallon tank setup with just sand on the bottom and a single fish in it. I'm guessing the best method would be to transfer the fish to the 90 and treat with cupramine. To avoid destroying my nitrifying bacteria, I'd prefer to leave the sand in the tank and just add some PVC fittings. I know I'll have to add more to get the correct level, but would there be any other negatives to doing this? I'd be moving a flame angel, female BT trigger, yellow tang, male lyretail anthias, leopard wrasse, blue chromis, green chromis, watchman goby, saddled BF, blueline BF, longnose hawk and small hippo tang. Any advise would be appreciated. __________________ 180 Gallon FOWLR, 40 Gallon Sump and 10 Gallon Refuge. (2) OceanRevive S026 LEDs, ASM G2 Skimmer & SCA-302 Skimmer. Setup since July 2017.

09/12/2017, 10:11 AM	#2
falconut Registered Member Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: Blackwood, NJ Posts: 3,813	The 90 gallon I'm looking to treat with cupramine has a bunch of astrea stars. Should I just leave them and see if they die and if they do, start removing them? Or do I need to remove them first? They're small, so not sure if they die if they'd cause a spike. Also, from reading, I'm guessing 0.4 is the level to start with. __________________ 180 Gallon FOWLR, 40 Gallon Sump and 10 Gallon Refuge. (2) OceanRevive S026 LEDs, ASM G2 Skimmer & SCA-302 Skimmer. Setup since July 2017.

09/12/2017, 11:09 AM	#4
falconut Registered Member Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: Blackwood, NJ Posts: 3,813	I just spoke with Seachem and they said the sand will absorb some of the cupramine until it's saturated then it won't effect the levels. I'll just have to check it a few extra times after reaching the correct level to be sure it stayed there. Sorry, I wasn't clear, I plan on slowly ramping it up to 0.4, maybe 1/4 doses every day or two. I usually see a lot of stars on the glass in the AM, so I'll try and pull them the next chance I get. __________________ 180 Gallon FOWLR, 40 Gallon Sump and 10 Gallon Refuge. (2) OceanRevive S026 LEDs, ASM G2 Skimmer & SCA-302 Skimmer. Setup since July 2017.

09/12/2017, 01:02 PM	#6
falconut Registered Member Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: Blackwood, NJ Posts: 3,813	I was hoping it would absorb in a few days, but from your experience it may be longer. At least that will be time against going fish less in the 180. I always thought you only needed to go 6 weeks, but I've be seeing people saying longer. So, I'm not sure yet. __________________ 180 Gallon FOWLR, 40 Gallon Sump and 10 Gallon Refuge. (2) OceanRevive S026 LEDs, ASM G2 Skimmer & SCA-302 Skimmer. Setup since July 2017.

09/12/2017, 04:45 PM	#8
falconut Registered Member Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: Blackwood, NJ Posts: 3,813	Ok, thanks for the explanation. __________________ 180 Gallon FOWLR, 40 Gallon Sump and 10 Gallon Refuge. (2) OceanRevive S026 LEDs, ASM G2 Skimmer & SCA-302 Skimmer. Setup since July 2017.

09/12/2017, 10:47 AM	#3
JustinM Registered Member Join Date: Nov 2010 Posts: 1,215	It's going to be hard to treat with sand in the tank. The sand will absorb it and your levels will jump around. I imagine there is a point where the sand can't absorb more, but it may jump around a bit. Do not start with .4 either, that may kill some fish. You should follow the directions and do half the dose, .25, then wait 2 days and do the other dose. It also doesn't hurt to take longer. The only time you should ever go right to therapeutic is when you're dealing with velvet. As for the astreas, I don't think they should cause too much a spike depending how many there are. I would remove as many as you can though.

09/12/2017, 11:19 AM	#5
JustinM Registered Member Join Date: Nov 2010 Posts: 1,215	With my wrasses when I qt them(I use sand for them)it's just a little annoying. It takes time for the sand to absorb the cupramine. I would have my levels up and go to test the next day and I would drop from .45 to below therapeutic. Just make sure to test everyday and if it goes below .35 you need to start over time wise. It may take you quite a few weeks for it to absorb. I would use glass jars filled with sand and it still would take a few weeks to level out. I imagine a 90 with sand may take a long time. It sounds like you have a good plan though. How long are you going to let your 180 go fallow?

09/12/2017, 01:40 PM	#7
JustinM Registered Member Join Date: Nov 2010 Posts: 1,215	If it was ich, the longest tomont(time encysted) has been 72 days. Once the trophont drops off the fish it is usually encysted within 30 hours, there it stays a tomont for 72 days(very rare but I don't want to ever take that chance, it is usually 7-14 days)once released from its tomont, the "now" theronts must find a host within 48 hours. This is why we suggest 76 days for 100% eradication. I take no chance and just do 90 days but that is me.

09/13/2017, 03:15 PM	#9
Powder Blue107 Registered Member Join Date: Aug 2017 Posts: 48	Youre going to have copper leaching out here and there so be especially careful with the copper level and use a good copper test kit like seachem or salifert. Api is notorious for false readings. Good luck __________________ The best things in life are free

09/13/2017, 05:07 PM	#11
falconut Registered Member Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: Blackwood, NJ Posts: 3,813	I have the Seachem test kit arriving tomorrow. I plan on raising the level slowly, like 5 doses instead of 2. I want to give it time to absorb, plus not shock the fish. None of them are in desperate need of treatment at the moment. __________________ 180 Gallon FOWLR, 40 Gallon Sump and 10 Gallon Refuge. (2) OceanRevive S026 LEDs, ASM G2 Skimmer & SCA-302 Skimmer. Setup since July 2017.