Am I screwed? (Velvet)

[MrTuskfish]

Originally Posted by birdman1979

I noticed you used amquel. It will make the copper more toxic in some cases. Also, salifert test kit will not work well for cupramine as it is meant to measure ionic copper.

Salifert Cu tests do work with Cupramine.

[MrTuskfish]

Originally Posted by Reeferhead

I see....

Then would it make sense to Fresh water dip and Formalin bath immediately? Then do it again next week followed by Copper after the hospital tank has been allowed to cycle a bit and the Amquel has had a chance to degrade and dilute after WCs?

I'll leave the schedule to Steve; but a it makes sense to me to treat (bath/dip) ASAP. BTW; formalin and copper are very toxic when used together.

[Reeferhead]

Originally Posted by MrTuskfish

BTW; formalin and copper are very toxic when used together.

Yes sir, I got that from my reading. Formalin will be a bucket bath only. Copper in the actual hospital tank.

[Reeferhead]

Not trying to be picky, I just have lots of questions on this issue but don't these two statement contradict each other? Perhaps I don't fully understand your method. Can you cure velvet with FW and Formalin dips/bath alone? without Copper treatment? If so, do you need to sterilize the hospital tank each time?

Originally Posted by snorvich

Most Effective Treatments for Oodinium

• Remove all fish from the main aquarium, give them a freshwater dip...

...Treatment with copper is often the recommended course of action, however keeping copper exactly at the proper level is very difficult and infeasible for many aquarists which is why I prefer a freshwater dip followed by a formalin bath.

Originally Posted by snorvich

However dips do not cure, just postpone the inevitable. Treatment with copper is the best after the dips since we can measure copper level in the hospital tank.

[snorvich]

The dips remove most but not all of the non-motile parasitic trophozoites in the gills by causing them to burst (fresh water dip) or drop off (formalin). This provides a great deal of relief for the fish. However, some are more deeply embedded (as is ich) and are unaffected so the ongoing copper treatment will nail them when they reproduce. Without dips, the parasite is so quick acting that copper will kill the parasites but not before the fish dies.

[snorvich]

Originally Posted by Reeferhead

Not trying to be picky, I just have lots of questions on this issue but don't these two statement contradict each other? Perhaps I don't fully understand your method. Can you cure velvet with FW and Formalin dips/bath alone? without Copper treatment? If so, do you need to sterilize the hospital tank each time?

There is no inconsistency. See my post above this. If you cure the disease but the patient dies . . . and by the way, the cure rate is NOT going to be 100% because the parasite may have advanced too far.

[Reeferhead]

Got ya That's what I thought but wanted to check. Thanks for the help

[Reeferhead]

I'm starting to second guess my diagnosis. It’s been one week now since exposure and absolutely no symptoms yet on both the fish in the display or the wrasse in QT. I would assume the wrasse in QT would show symptoms first as that tank has been exposed the longest. It might be ick, in which case it may be a bit reckless to just start yanking all the fish out and into an uncycled hospital tank. If it is ick I still plan to do the right thing and treat all the fish to insure my tank is clean, but I can take a bit more time and do it right.

[cngreg]

I'm pretty sure I am successfully using the salifert copper test kit to monitor cupramine. I prefer this test kit over seachems own kits as it's only 1 step and the range is tighter and colors more easily interpreted for me.

[Reeferhead]

I came home today to find the PBT covered head to tail in salt-like spots, no velvet-like sheen I could see. No other fish show symptoms. Unsure if I'm dealing with velvet or ick, all the fish I could catch received a 5 min pH adjusted FW bath and a 45 min Formalin dip. The ones that survived are in my original QT tank (no Amquel) with the first dose of Cupramine. I adjusted my Formalin dosage based on Steven Pro's RK article. Rid-Ick is only 11.5% Formalin so I ended up dosing about 9.5mL into 4 gallons.

The PBT quickly went downhill shortly after the FW bath and never recovered. I could not catch the Bartlett's or the Orchid dottyback. I'll try again tomorrow.

Does anyone what to take a stab based on the timeline and/or the PBT's reaction to the FW dip on whether this is ick or velvet??

[MrTuskfish]

Originally Posted by cngreg

I'm pretty sure I am successfully using the salifert copper test kit to monitor cupramine. I prefer this test kit over seachems own kits as it's only 1 step and the range is tighter and colors more easily interpreted for me.

+1 SeaChem tech support confirmed that Salifert tests are fine with Cupramine.

[MrTuskfish]

Timeline says velvet. But with all the time involved, it could be either. But copper kills both. You've delayed treatment since at least the 27th and, assuming it is velvet, you'll lose all your fish soon. You may have to drain your tank into plastic garbage cans , or whatever. Get the fish out anyway you can, ASAP. Copper may do them too, these fish must be very weak and you no longer have the option of slowly introducing copper; but that's what you need. Dips will help velvet, won't hurt ich. Waiting kills everything, the fish surely had parasites in their gills that you couldn't see.

[snorvich]

Originally Posted by MrTuskfish

Timeline says velvet. But with all the time involved, it could be either. But copper kills both. You've delayed treatment since at least the 27th and, assuming it is velvet, you'll lose all your fish soon. You may have to drain your tank into plastic garbage cans , or whatever. Get the fish out anyway you can, ASAP. Copper may do them too, these fish must be very weak and you no longer have the option of slowly introducing copper; but that's what you need. Dips will help velvet, won't hurt ich. Waiting kills everything, the fish surely had parasites in their gills that you couldn't see.

Exactly. Relying on visual symptoms is not best practice. Learn to read fish behavior.

[Reeferhead]

Yes, I'm not very hopeful either. I've learned some huge lessons here.

I'm not at all new to this hobby. I had my first SW tank back in 92. And I have had some form of reef tank continuously now for the last 12 years. I never QTd until I set up this larger system about a year ago. Of course, the one time I shorten it, it bites me in the butt.

About 6 months ago my jawfish tank was wipeout by velvet. I added a new group of 3 to an establish group of 5. The fish came from the same source collected out of the same waters. They were the only species in the tank so I did not bother to QT. All fish dead within a week.

Am I just having bad luck lately or have these diseases become much more common and virulent over the last few years?

[Reeferhead]

Originally Posted by snorvich

Exactly. Relying on visual symptoms is not best practice. Learn to read fish behavior.

Care to elaborate? I did not notice anything unusual behavior-wise. No labored breathing, scratching, erratic swimming, and until the end both the dead fish ate like pigs.

[snorvich]

Originally Posted by Reeferhead

Care to elaborate? I did not notice anything unusual behavior-wise. No labored breathing, scratching, erratic swimming, and until the end both the dead fish ate like pigs.

Reclusive behavior, specifically aversion to light, hanging around returns (trying to get newly oxygenated water) are two very obvious behaviors for velvet. Labored or rapid breathing are indications of gill issues for velvet or ich.

Also, fish coming from systems with non therapeutic doses of copper can mask oodinium, and so I would never shorten quarantine time. However, I strongly advocate tank transfer to prophylactically prevent cryptocaryon irritans; but remember that oodinium often takes 30 days to present.

[Reeferhead]

Originally Posted by snorvich

Reclusive behavior, specifically aversion to light, hanging around returns (trying to get newly oxygenated water) are two very obvious behaviors for velvet. Labored or rapid breathing are indications of gill issues for velvet or ich.

Also, fish coming from systems with non therapeutic doses of copper can mask oodinium, and so I would never shorten quarantine time. However, I strongly advocate tank transfer to prophylactically prevent cryptocaryon irritans; but remember that oodinium often takes 30 days to present.

Thanks Steve, I did not note any of those symptoms. Perhaps the unfortunate consequence of learning to pickup on these subtle symptoms is that you have to witness them often first hand.

I plan to research and re-plan my entire QT and prophylactic treatment strategy for fish going forward.

[snorvich]

Originally Posted by Reeferhead

I plan to research and re-plan my entire QT and prophylactic treatment strategy for fish going forward.

My suggested protocol is to use tank transfer for all new specimens to insure against cryptocaryon irritans. 12 days and two 20 gallon tanks is all it takes.

The initial receiving tank is temp and SG adjusted to the bag water( SG a few points couple of points lower than the bagwater is ok but not higher) This obviates the need for drip acclimation and prolonged stays in bag water where pH can rise and ammonia toxicity can increase once the bag is opened. This is particularly important after prolonged stays in the bag.

During the 12 day tank transfer process ( 3 day stays 4 transfers, move fish on the morning of days 4,7,10,13) observe for other maladies. Since there are no meds to interact with in the transfer tanks which contain freshly mixed salt water aged and aerated overnight , use an ammonia detoxifier during each 3 day period. Bound copper products for example can't be safely used with ammonia detoxifiers as more toxic free copper occurs with lethal copper toxicity,even though total copper measures the same.

If there is reason to suspect infestation with brooklynellosis, velvet or flukes , do a formalin bath before starting treatment with copper for velvet, formalin for brooklynellosis or prazi pro for flukes.

Since not all maladies will present symptoms in the 12 days( flukes can easily be missed, velvet can take up to 30 days to present), use a larger cycled QT tank for an additional 2 to 4 weeks of observation depending on the condition of the fish with treatment as necessary.

Most fish receive no medications yet all are effectively prophylactically treated for ich,the most common killer

Ammonia is monitored and has never been an issue during the 3 day stay but a detoxifier is added just in case, The cycled tank takes care of itself.

BTW there is no need to worry about nitrite or nitrate.

[Reeferhead]

Originally Posted by snorvich

Also, fish coming from systems with non therapeutic doses of copper can mask oodinium, and so I would never shorten quarantine time. However, I strongly advocate tank transfer to prophylactically prevent cryptocaryon irritans; but remember that oodinium often takes 30 days to present

This is the one bit I wish I would have understood better before this whole ordeal. There are several articles that specify two weeks as "ample" time for QT, including the sticky in this forum.

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/sh....php?t=1846124

Its obvious to me now that two weeks doesn't do S.

[snorvich]

Originally Posted by Reeferhead

This is the one bit I wish I would have understood better before this whole ordeal. There are several articles that specify two weeks as "ample" time for QT, including the sticky in this forum.

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/sh....php?t=1846124

Its obvious to me now that two weeks doesn't do S.

I do not agree with 2 weeks especially since parasites will not always present in that time period. My preference is 12 days of tank transfer followed by 4 weeks of observation with treatment if required. I feel that Prazipro should always be administered during the 4 weeks of observation.

[Reeferhead]

Originally Posted by snorvich

I do not agree with 2 weeks especially since parasites will not always present in that time period. My preference is 12 days of tank transfer followed by 4 weeks of observation with treatment if required. I feel that Prazipro should always be administered during the 4 weeks of observation.

Seems like a sound strategy. I need to do a bit more research into the tank transfer method. It seem logical that it could certainly reduce the level of infection but even with 4 transfers do we know the confidence interval for total removal of the parasite?

The Anthias is now covered in ick-like spots, still eating though. I'll continue to try and catch it and the dottyback but IMO its not worth tearing the tank apart for. The dottyback is pushing 8 years anyway and was showing its age. The clowns and the YWG look to be doing ok in QT. I treated the wrasse yesterday as well but I don't think he's handling it too well.

[snorvich]

Confidence level in tank transfer is absolute from my perspective. Read the life cycle sticky. But, again, you are free to do whatever you think best.

[MrTuskfish]

Originally Posted by snorvich

Confidence level in tank transfer is absolute from my perspective. Read the life cycle sticky. But, again, you are free to do whatever you think best.

I'm a recent convert to TT. Even though I'v only used it once, Steve's description makes it so logical that it almost has to work. But, don't expect 100% kill, 100% of the time from anything. This just isn't possible with any microscopic life; unless the host is also destroyed. Antibiotics, flu shots, dog flea killers, anti-virals, pesticides, insecticides, etc., etc., are never 100% effective.

[Reeferhead]

Yep, TT makes sense. I'm going to apply the lessons I've learned going forward after I get through this rough patch. There's always something new to learn in this hobby. I really wish I don't have to learn anymore the hard way.

[Reeferhead]

Melenuras was dead yesterday morning. The anthias and dottyback have quit eating. The clowns and the YWG will likely be the only survivors of this ordeal.