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Unread 03/28/2020, 04:29 PM   #1
luke1234
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one for the fish disease expert.

Hi guys
my name is pete and i live in england and have kept marine for 26 years.
Up until 7 months ago i had a very successful mixed reef mainly dominated by anampses wrasse and sps.

My reef is my pride and joy and my anampses wrasse collection was admired by everyone who came to see it.
My system is roughly 900 litres and my last fish additions where 2 juvenile blue spot anampse 9 months ago.

Around 7 months ago i started losing fish the first where 2 tangs that simply stayed under my montipora plates at the bottom of my tank refusing to eat and breathing was faster than usual.
My first suspicion was ammonia so i tested morning and night for ammonia and nitrite but could never get a reading i also used multiple test kits for cross referencing.

Over the remaining months i lost all of my fish apart from 4 gobies.
The last fish to die where my 2 mandarins all fish had the same symptoms and all wrasse would simply lay down on the sand at lights out and not even try to bury themselves and had rapid breathing.
I use a hydrometer to test salinity i have very good flow use a large skimmer and calcium reactor.

My system has 6 clams loads of amphipods snails urchins sps shrimp etc none of these suffer.
none of the fish have shown any signs of disease and skin has stayed vibrant even at death.

Alot of people suspected my dsb in my sump so this was removed and sump clinically cleaned.

Once the system had settled i added 4 springeri damsels on first day of adding them to my tank they ate like pigs on day 2 they ate but wasnt acting as they was on day 2 but had no signs of fast breathing however on day 3 all 4 fish where on the bottom breathing fast and eventually on day 3 died.

The fish showed no sign of disease and skin looked well coloured.
The gobies that where already in the system showed no sign of distress.

it was now suggested to me that it would be a good idea to remove my liverock wall at the back of my tank as this was sat on 2 inches of sand .my reef was dismantled all sand was syphoned out and all liverock removed.

The tank was rescaped with existing reefbones and small amount of liverock.
After the tank settled i added more springeri these died on day 3 in the exact way the first 4 did all gone on day 3.The gobies still remained unaffected.

I let the system settle for a month and decided to clean out my weir this is quite large and in all fairness was quite dirty.
During all of this i performed lots of good sized good quality water changes and used carbon and polyfiter.
i also sent water away to holland for an icp test and the test came back all good.
My next fish where cromis these ate well on day1 ate on day 2 but looked slightly off and on day 3 showed signs of fast breathing and sat on the sand eventually dieing on day 3.The gobies still remained ok

i forgot to mention i had my tank checked for stray voltage twice and this came back fine.

After lots of discussions i decided that it could be my black sea cucumber secreting toxins so this was removed i also swapped my calcium reactor to a deltec from a huge schuran and went from man made media to reefbones.

After a while with my system looking good i added 2 meleagris wrasse 1 true banana and a pair of percs. These where from my friends tank breakdown i wasnt sure about it but my friend reassured me
my system was ready.

day 1 all fish ate well and acted perfect and i was in my element i finally had some wrasse back in my system, day 2 things where not right fish where eating but the fish where not acting like on day 1.
Day 3 my percs where not together and 1 of the meleagris was sat on the sand breathing fast and later that day i had 1 dead clown and one dead meleagris.
The other 2 are still missing but i know they are dead.
the gobies are still fine and i cannot carry on like this and refuse now to murder any more fish.
i have never heard of any fish disease or illness that does this so therefor i do not know what plan of action to take.
if you can please help
kindest regards Pete


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Unread 03/28/2020, 08:27 PM   #2
HumbleFish
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If a latent fish disease is to blame, the only thing you can do is go fallow (fishless) for 76 days to starve it out of the tank. You might have velvet in the tank, although other symptoms should have manifested:

Visible physical symptoms:

* Velvet may initially start out looking just like ich, with salt or sugar-like “sprinkles” visible mostly on the fins.

* Within days or sometimes just hours, these tiny white dots will spread all over the fish’s body, covering it in “dust.” This dust may look grey-gold colored if viewed at the right angle and under the right spectrum of light. For this reason, it may be difficult to see velvet on a yellow or light colored fish (look from an angle, not directly from the side). However, sometimes a fish’s body will look “dirty” or show “dark areas” just before velvet appears.

Key behavioral symptoms of velvet:

* Reduced or complete loss of appetite.
* Heavy breathing, scratching, flashing, head twitching, erratic swimming behavior (unfortunately velvet shares all these same symptoms with ich & gill flukes.)
* Swimming into the flow of a water pump/wavemaker/powerhead (unique to velvet).
* Acting reclusive (velvet causes fish to be sensitive to light).


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Unread 03/29/2020, 01:02 AM   #3
luke1234
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many thanks for your help
The skin on my fish has been absolutely clear and have shown none of the signs of velvet apart from the loss of appetite.
There have been no flicking or swimming into high flow areas to clear gills.

If i was to catch my gobies and put them in quarantine how would you recommend treating them even though they have no sign of infection.

while my reef is fishless how do you think i should treat this to clear it of whatever is killing all new fish within 3 days.
thanks again


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Unread 03/29/2020, 01:59 AM   #4
ThRoewer
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It sounds like Velvet in a tank with partially immune fish. With partial immunity, you will have the infection primarily in the gills and to a lesser degree on the skin.
Also, wrasses build a slime cocoon every night which might shed the parasites from the skin but not from the gills.

Studies on Amyloodinium ocellatum (Dinoflagellata) in Mississippi Sound - Natural and Experimental Hosts
AR Lawler - Gulf and Caribbean Research, 1980 - aquila.usm.edu

Acquired immunity to amyloodiniosis is associated with an antibody response
CS Cobb, MG Levy, EJ Noga - Diseases of Aquatic Organisms, 1998 - int-res.com


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Pairs: 4 percula, 3 P. kauderni, 3 D. excisus, 1 ea of P. diacanthus, S. splendidus, C. altivelis O. rosenblatti, D. janssi, S. yasha & a Gramma loreto trio
3 P. diacanthus. 2 C. starcki

Current Tank Info: 200 gal 4 tank system (40x28x24 + 40B + 40B sump tank + 20g refugium) + 30x18x18 mixed reef + 20g East Pacific biotop + 20g FW +...
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Unread 03/29/2020, 02:10 AM   #5
ThRoewer
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Quote:
Originally Posted by luke1234 View Post
many thanks for your help
The skin on my fish has been absolutely clear and have shown none of the signs of velvet apart from the loss of appetite.
There have been no flicking or swimming into high flow areas to clear gills.

If i was to catch my gobies and put them in quarantine how would you recommend treating them even though they have no sign of infection.

while my reef is fishless how do you think i should treat this to clear it of whatever is killing all new fish within 3 days.
thanks again
The best medication against velvet is Chloroquine Phospate, but good luck finding that these days.
Copper usually works as well but there are copper tolerant strains of velvet that can handle dosages that would be lethal to fish.

Amyloodinium is in part algae and can live on photosynthesis for weeks without a fish. But they need fish to multiply. Also, as algae they are on the menu of many filter-feeders, pods, rotifers,... it will be hard for them to survive a single week.
That said, it would be best to leave the tank empty for at least 2 months to be on the safe side.


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Pairs: 4 percula, 3 P. kauderni, 3 D. excisus, 1 ea of P. diacanthus, S. splendidus, C. altivelis O. rosenblatti, D. janssi, S. yasha & a Gramma loreto trio
3 P. diacanthus. 2 C. starcki

Current Tank Info: 200 gal 4 tank system (40x28x24 + 40B + 40B sump tank + 20g refugium) + 30x18x18 mixed reef + 20g East Pacific biotop + 20g FW +...
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Unread 03/29/2020, 04:44 PM   #6
luke1234
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Many thanks for your help guys i have spent most of the day reading all of the research links and feel i now have a plan to combat what i believe you have diagnosed for me.

My gobies are clearly resistant to this and carry velvet so therefore i need to get them out and treat them.

if i can get them out and into qt am i right in thinking that all i need to treat them is copper???

I can get seachem cupramine will this be ok to treat my gobies.
How long do i need to treat the fish in qt with seachem cupramine??

With the gobies out of my display if i keep it fallow for 72 days i should be able to put the gobies back into display tank.

my gobies are so healthy and for the past 6 months have shown no symptoms whatsoever.
kind regards and thankyou for looking
pete


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Unread 03/29/2020, 05:26 PM   #7
ThRoewer
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In most cases copper (cupramine) should do the trick.
To verify that it is Velvet you could use a freshwater Black Mollie as a "canary" after acclimating it to saltwater. Since that fish should have never encountered the parasite it should have no immunity to it. If the parasite is in the system, the Mollie will catch it and clearly show it. Then you are sure what you are fighting.
BTW, the Mollie can be easily cured by reacclimating it to freshwater. Later you can use it to fight algae or find it a new home. Note that this Mollie can not be used again as "detector" as it now may have immunity.

Sent from my XT1254 using Tapatalk


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Pairs: 4 percula, 3 P. kauderni, 3 D. excisus, 1 ea of P. diacanthus, S. splendidus, C. altivelis O. rosenblatti, D. janssi, S. yasha & a Gramma loreto trio
3 P. diacanthus. 2 C. starcki

Current Tank Info: 200 gal 4 tank system (40x28x24 + 40B + 40B sump tank + 20g refugium) + 30x18x18 mixed reef + 20g East Pacific biotop + 20g FW +...
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Unread 03/29/2020, 06:19 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ThRoewer View Post
In most cases copper (cupramine) should do the trick.
To verify that it is Velvet you could use a freshwater Black Mollie as a "canary" after acclimating it to saltwater. Since that fish should have never encountered the parasite it should have no immunity to it. If the parasite is in the system, the Mollie will catch it and clearly show it. Then you are sure what you are fighting.
BTW, the Mollie can be easily cured by reacclimating it to freshwater. Later you can use it to fight algae or find it a new home. Note that this Mollie can not be used again as "detector" as it now may have immunity.
+1 Except I prefer Copper Power over Cupramine.

Either way, use one of these for more accurate testing: https://www.hannainst.com/hi702-copper-hr.html


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Unread 04/03/2020, 02:53 PM   #9
luke1234
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Many thanks again guys
I have been looking through my equipment and i have some seachem focus and some general cure so my question is
the api general cure states that it can be used to treat and cure velvet?
I have the seachem focus that is used to bind the general cure to the food.

Can i use this instead of ripping my reef apart to catch my gobies.

kindest regards and thankyou for your help in advance
pete


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Unread 04/03/2020, 05:47 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by luke1234 View Post
the api general cure states that it can be used to treat and cure velvet?
I have the seachem focus that is used to bind the general cure to the food.
API GC contains a dewormer (praziquantel) + metronidazole which treats brook & uronema. Food soaking it treats intestinal worms + internal parasites. It won't eliminate velvet though.


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