Guess the Phosphate level

[mediumrar3]

I'd be very interested in knowing how the coloration changed since they hypothesize the increased growth due to increased zooxanthellae.

[Fail_sh3d]

Originally Posted by Thales

http://www.advancedaquarist.com/blog...opora-muricata

Interesting read, Thales. It is worth noting the weakened skeletal structure at higher P04.

Know of any follow up studies including various species?

[Thales]

Originally Posted by Allmost

I think the point he is trying to make is who cares what po4 tests at, we dont want to make the test kits happy, we want to make corals and our eyes happy

That is absolutely one of the points I like to make. The questionable reliability of po4 testing, especially at levels reefers have been striving for in the last few years, is another.

but Duk. has a good point, wouldnt it be even better with lower po4 ? is your reef as good as it possibly can be ?

It wasn't any different when the po4 was lower. I got tired of spending time and money chasing the numbers and decided to let it go and see what happened. Not much. I may try to reduce the po4 to see what happens, of course, how to quantify what happens is a whole nutty kettle of fish. I do go through and chop everything back every 6 months or so. Almost time for another round. I am also not sure how much I care about growth speed. If it ends up being a little slower, it just means less work for me.

It may be that there is something weird going on in my home tank, and I am certainly not saying people should change whatever they are doing.

Sorry if I jumped the gun here - perhaps I should have waited till the article is out. I just thought this might be fun. Sorry if people don't like it.

The last PO4 test I believe was 1.24, tested with the Hach ascorbic acid molybdate method.

[Thales]

Originally Posted by Fail_sh3d

Interesting read, Thales. It is worth noting the weakened skeletal structure at higher P04.

Know of any follow up studies including various species?

Not yet. I think the weakened skeletal structure might be over blown and we see the same effect from increased growth without the presence of high po4.

[Allmost]

well it is fine. but you arent really advocating the best practice to keep these animals. ...

as you mentioned "I am also not sure how much I care about growth speed. If it ends up being a little slower, it just means less work for me. "
which is totally fine, but how about me who rathers work on my reef than watch TV ? it is wrong for me to lower my po4, get more growth, and keep my animals happier ? [or rather lock myself in the fish room and change water then to argue with ze GF haha]

I completely agree with your method though. alot less work, and more stable then my reef

but good point and good thread, I personally enjoyed it. I dislike how ppl have Issues iwth their system, come on the net, post the values from API test kit, and ppl respond with po4 is high, or no3 is high ... your tank and this thread shows that keeping SPS relatively happy and colorfull, is not about chasing numbers. its about the stability of the system, and perhaps other points which you are going to share with us and teach us about

[sahin]

Originally Posted by dvanacker

I'm with Sahin, lets see some top down pics, perhaps a video?

Let me make it clear: I am in no way doubting the colours the OP may have. Rather, I am here to learn, and having a good idea of the coral colours and then knowing the actual PO4 level, combined with a good discussion, I believe would further my understanding of SPS keeping.

[Thales]

Originally Posted by Allmost

well it is fine. but you arent really advocating the best practice to keep these animals. ...

What best practice?

as you mentioned "I am also not sure how much I care about growth speed. If it ends up being a little slower, it just means less work for me. "
which is totally fine, but how about me who rathers work on my reef than watch TV ? it is wrong for me to lower my po4, get more growth, and keep my animals happier ? [or rather lock myself in the fish room and change water then to argue with ze GF haha]

Nope! I also don't think the corals growth has slowed even with the po4 level.

I completely agree with your method though. alot less work, and more stable then my reef

but good point and good thread, I personally enjoyed it. I dislike how ppl have Issues iwth their system, come on the net, post the values from API test kit, and ppl respond with po4 is high, or no3 is high ... your tank and this thread shows that keeping SPS relatively happy and colorfull, is not about chasing numbers. its about the stability of the system, and perhaps other points which you are going to share with us and teach us about

Thanks! We'll see!

[Thales]

Originally Posted by sahin

Let me make it clear: I am in no way doubting the colours the OP may have. Rather, I am here to learn, and having a good idea of the coral colours and then knowing the actual PO4 level, combined with a good discussion, I believe would further my understanding of SPS keeping.

There are shots in the links. I'll try to find time to take some more. There are a couple vids floating around. I think the most recent one is from December 2011 in a piece called "When the fruit stand rots"

I also think the pic at the beginning of the thread is from last august.

[Fail_sh3d]

Originally Posted by sahin

let me make it clear: I am in no way doubting the colours the op may have. Rather, i am here to learn, and having a good idea of the coral colours and then knowing the actual po4 level, combined with a good discussion, i believe would further my understanding of sps keeping.

+1

[Thales]

Cool! Lets discuss!
I think most hair algae problems happen in tank that are between 0 and 18 months old, and that in such tanks it might not be the po4 level in the water column that is driving the algae problems.

Why do people say high po4 effects the colors of coral?

[galleon]

Originally Posted by Thales

There are shots in the links. I'll try to find time to take some more. There are a couple vids floating around. I think the most recent one is from December 2011 in a piece called "When the fruit stand rots"

I remember that piece!

[sahin]

from Richard Ross on Vimeo.

[sahin]

OK, here is the link. I guess RC doesnt support Vimeo embedding.

[sahin]

Haha! RC does!

[Big E]

Originally Posted by Dukester

just 2 weeks ago Ed stated " As long as I'm under .10 phosphates I'm good, I don't chase each tenth of a point."

Just to clear things up here..........my colors were just as good in the 20's as below.10
The biggest problem was nusiance macroalgae and green slime/cyano. I would blow this off with a baster every evening and up my snail load so the coraline would take over.

I got as high as over .50 at one time with no color changes. Above this level is when I could tell my acros wouldn't grow as well.

If you look cronologically in my thread and the pictures you can see algae in the backdrop and then the latest pics show coraline taking over when I was mainly in the .10-.12 range, where it's been for the last 1 1/2 years. I only test once a month at most and it ranges from .07-.15 but I do nothing to chase the numbers.

It's very possible to grow enough acros and coraline to out compete the algae for space and run higher levels. From my own personal experience I think nitrates brown out corals more than PO4.

I stated that .10 was my high target in my thread, as I didn't want people running high levels and fighting algae.

I actually want higher levels because I like the deeper vivid colors versus the pastel look. Higher levels aren’t bad, it’s the detritus that’s trapped in rock and sand surface that cause problems.

I’m about 99% sure the original PO4 target of .03 was just pulled out of thin air as an educated guess for acros based on ocean levels by someone who wrote an article.

If you look at Thales tank…….where’s the algae going to gow? The corals have taken over. I think the point to take is that PO4 in the water column isn’t a big deal.

[KritikaL]

Amazing really dunno how to really react to it tbh! Hahaa if I slack on rowaphos changes my tank soon lets me know about it so I dunno how uve managed to get away with it!

I don't see much algae on the rock but the amount of brown film algae I get on my glass is ridiculous unless I religiously change my rowaphos.

Any ideas?

[criticalencore]

My biggest complaint to the people I know (actual local people I know) that try to get there po4 >.03 is that for the most part to keep it low they starve their fish... feed your fish and your fish will feed the coral. When I cut back on feedings to try to lower my po4 I had a neon wrasse (~7") start killing fish for food...

[Koralcrazy]

based on that video, it appears your tank is fairly dim....but then again, it is impossible to tell brightness from a pic or video....do you have any idea how much PAR you are getting to your corals? I would think you would need a substantial amount to counter any browning from higher nutrients...

[sahin]

Originally Posted by Big E

Just to clear things up here..........my colors were just as good in the 20's as below.10
The biggest problem was nusiance macroalgae and green slime/cyano. I would blow this off with a baster every evening and up my snail load so the coraline would take over.

I got as high as over .50 at one time with no color changes. Above this level is when I could tell my acros wouldn't grow as well.

If you look cronologically in my thread and the pictures you can see algae in the backdrop and then the latest pics show coraline taking over when I was mainly in the .10-.12 range, where it's been for the last 1 1/2 years. I only test once a month at most and it ranges from .07-.15 but I do nothing to chase the numbers.

It's very possible to grow enough acros and coraline to out compete the algae for space and run higher levels. From my own personal experience I think nitrates brown out corals more than PO4.

I stated that .10 was my high target in my thread, as I didn't want people running high levels and fighting algae.

I actually want higher levels because I like the deeper vivid colors versus the pastel look. Higher levels aren’t bad, it’s the detritus that’s trapped in rock and sand surface that cause problems.

I’m about 99% sure the original PO4 target of .03 was just pulled out of thin air as an educated guess for acros based on ocean levels by someone who wrote an article.

If you look at Thales tank…….where’s the algae going to gow? The corals have taken over. I think the point to take is that PO4 in the water column isn’t a big deal.

IF: High PO4 (such as 0.1-0.3ppm) gets you deep/strong SPS colours + possibility of nuisance algae; then I'd happily take that route and deal with a bit of algae and beef up my CUC.

BUT, why is it then that since the early days of my hobby experience everyone keep saying PO4 higher than 0.03ppm=BROWN SPS?!!!

Take my current tank for example...I had EXCELLENT colours in MOST of my acros when the same tank and equipment was setup a couple of years ago.

I have the same tank and equipment and a year after a restart, I am not getting the same results...OK, its not bad...but overall its NOT the same level of success.

Parameters are the same...salt additives, salt, flow, pumps, lights...the list goes on.

The ONLY difference is the rocks. So is it something to do with the bacteria in my rocks?

If its not PO4 then what is in the OP and Big E's tanks that is missing from so many of everyone elses tank?

Is lots of food the answer? Arrrgh! This hobby does my head in sometimes...

[sahin]

The saddest part is that as hobbyists who keep SPS corals, we still DONT know for sure, what colours up SPS corals, we are at the same point as we were 10 years ago!

OK, so the average person knows how to keep SPS corals alive, no problem there. But other than that...we havent really advanced a whole lot.

On the whole, it saddens me so much that instead so many of us have turned to untested potions from all these companies who have no real interest in doing genuine research...all the while the average person turns to potions to dose in their tanks.

What is in some tanks that makes the system so great at colouring up SPS?

[Thales]

Originally Posted by sahin

IF: High PO4 (such as 0.1-0.3ppm) gets you deep/strong SPS colours + possibility of nuisance algae; then I'd happily take that route and deal with a bit of algae and beef up my CUC.

BUT, why is it then that since the early days of my hobby experience everyone keep saying PO4 higher than 0.03ppm=BROWN SPS?!!!

I find this to be an interesting question. How long have you been in the hobby? My feeling is that people became very concerned with phosphate when a product that could control it became available. Everyone loves the idea of being able to buy something to control something. Before po4 reducers there was a large market for nitrate reducers.

I'm on my phone so more later.

[Thales]

Originally Posted by Koralcrazy

based on that video, it appears your tank is fairly dim....but then again, it is impossible to tell brightness from a pic or video....do you have any idea how much PAR you are getting to your corals? I would think you would need a substantial amount to counter any browning from higher nutrients...

It's dim in the vid as not to blow out colors. The tank is lit with 4 250 my bulbs and led strips for blue light. I have two custom lime arc reflectors with two bulbs in each reflector 14k ushio and radium. They are only all on together for 3 or 5 hours a day. I have some PAR readings somewhere I'll try to remember to dig up

[Thales]

Originally Posted by sahin

The saddest part is that as hobbyists who keep SPS corals, we still DONT know for sure, what colours up SPS corals, we are at the same point as we were 10 years ago!

OK, so the average person knows how to keep SPS corals alive, no problem there. But other than that...we havent really advanced a whole lot.

On the whole, it saddens me so much that instead so many of us have turned to untested potions from all these companies who have no real interest in doing genuine research...all the while the average person turns to potions to dose in their tanks.

What is in some tanks that makes the system so great at colouring up SPS?

I agree - and that is part of the reason I started the Skeptical Reefkeeeper series.

[sahin]

Originally Posted by Thales

I find this to be an interesting question. How long have you been in the hobby? My feeling is that people became very concerned with phosphate when a product that could control it became available. Everyone loves the idea of being able to buy something to control something. Before po4 reducers there was a large market for nitrate reducers.

I'm on my phone so more later.

I've been in the hobby about 15 years now. I am unsure when GFO became popularised...but for my 1st and 2nd tank SPS tanks, I HAD VERY GOOD COLOURS!!! EDIT: I forgot to add my main point. For my first and 2nd tank, I didnt use GFO!

My first tank was lit by T8's...I had nice colours without even trying! I used to bloomin hand dose every day!

My 2nd tank, was lit by halides, and again I had SPS colouring up in my tank within a couple of months of a new tank being setup! - Same...dose by hand.

My current tank is now over 1 years old and I am still struggling to pull colour out of many of my SPS. Everything is controlled..dosing, temp, flow, lights etc etc...

The one thing different from back then and now is that the Liverock that used to come into the UK back then was so much higher quality in terms of freshness and degree of biodiversity.

Hence why I asked: Is it the bacteria?

[Lubeck]

Wow but no one repeats his levels once he reveals them? I'm the lucky one 1.24!!! Crazy. I like it.

So Thales what would you recommend to others when it comes to PO4? Would you mind summarizing/sharing your nutrient import and export procedures?