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Old 02/12/2018, 09:52 AM   #1
kiMxD
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Angry Hospital Tank - Marine Ich

Hello folks,

Last night I've transferred all my fish to a 20g long hospital tank to treat ich (only two of them have it).

The fish I have in this 20g are: 1 orchid dottyback, 1 firefish goby, 1 yellow tang, 3 blue danzels, 1 3-stripe danzel, 1 orange spotted blenny and 1 hawaiian zebra blenny.

I know it's overcrowded, but after work today I will remove all 4 danzels from this tank.

The fish that has ich are: orchid dottyback and hawaiian zebra blenny.

I basically have two questions about it:

1-) What's the less stressful way to treat ich? I've read a lot about daily water changes (50%) and I do think that this might be the best way to treat it w/o stressing the fish too much. What's your opinion?

2-) I had a freshwater plastic decor that I wasn't using so I've added to the hospital tank along with some oyster shells (big ones, decorative) and some PVC elbows to add some hiding spaces. Should I remove the shells and the plastic decor or is it fine?

Wherever treatment route I choose, will start tonight. I really need your ideas on what should I go with.

Just for the record, all my fish are eating normally and the dottyback ahs been fighting the ich for a week with metroplex, but last night I first noticed ich on my hawaiian zebra blenny, that's why I decided to transfer them to the hospital tank. But they're generally fine and eating normally.

Please help me out!

Thank you!


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Old 02/12/2018, 09:57 AM   #2
nereefpat
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It's good that you are treating all the fish, whether they show symptoms or not.

Daily water changes won't do anything.

Hiding places like your pvc elbows are a good idea.

Tank transfer method, hyposalinity, or copper are basically your options for treating your fish. Keep in mind that your display will have to be fishless for about 72 days.


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Old 02/12/2018, 10:17 AM   #3
kiMxD
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Thank you nereefpat!

What about my decor and the shells? Should I remove them?

What are your suggestions in terms of "stressless" treatment? Which of the three should I go with?

My fish are strong and healthy, they might be able to handle copper or hypo, but I am not sure about it, just scared to make them weak...

Thank you!


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Old 02/12/2018, 01:56 PM   #4
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Originally Posted by nereefpat View Post
Daily water changes won't do anything.
Maybe the OP meant tank transfer.


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Old 02/12/2018, 01:57 PM   #5
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My preferred treatment these days for ich is chloroquine phosphate, though I appreciate that it is not always easy to find. You may also want to use it as an opportunity to rehome the 3-stripe. It will get very aggressive as it grows.


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Old 02/12/2018, 02:22 PM   #6
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You can go with the CP as metioned above if you can get it. Otherwise, the ONLY method I would suggest is TTM. There is a great sticky at the top of this forum that will explain in great detail exactly what to do. (and you MUST do it as it states or it will not be effective)


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Old 02/12/2018, 02:44 PM   #7
kiMxD
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My preferred treatment these days for ich is chloroquine phosphate, though I appreciate that it is not always easy to find. You may also want to use it as an opportunity to rehome the 3-stripe. It will get very aggressive as it grows.

Thank you for your reply!

I am going to rehome all danzels tonight, I got them to help me cycle my tank (1 month old).

I know I screw up when I wasn't patience to wait the full cycle of a new tank, no need to tell me that.

My LFS told me to treat the fish with copper and hyposalinity, what are your thoughts?

Thank you!


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Old 02/12/2018, 04:08 PM   #8
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Thank you for your reply!

I am going to rehome all danzels tonight, I got them to help me cycle my tank (1 month old).

Boo. There are too many good ways to cycle a tank that using livestock just shouldn't be done - even if they are damsels

I know I screw up when I wasn't patience to wait the full cycle of a new tank, no need to tell me that.

Good! It's nice to hear that you are learning!!!

My LFS told me to treat the fish with copper and hyposalinity, what are your thoughts?

How many dead fish do you want? Copper by itself is a difficult medication to use. The concentration needed to cure Ich is just below the threshold that is fatal to the fish, and will cause them permanent harm in any case. Add Hyposalinity to that and disaster looms. Although Hypo can work, it, too, is difficult to carry out, especially for someone new to the hobby.

I'd look for a better LFS


Thank you!
I would take a look a Tank Transfer Method (TTM) There is a great sticky at the top of this forum that will explain in detail just how to do it. As an added bonus it is certainly the least stressful method of combating the Ich parasite.

hth!


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Old 02/12/2018, 06:46 PM   #9
ca1ore
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Is the NLS Ich Shield still available? I think that was/is CP.


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Old 02/12/2018, 07:07 PM   #10
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CP is also my suggestion.

New Life Spectrum Powder Ick-Shield Bath Food, Medium https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00MNQWACU..._KOJGAbV9NZ6ZQ

While your at it I would treat them with prazi-pro too


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Old 02/13/2018, 07:25 AM   #11
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Hello everyone!

I thank you all for the inputs. I really appreciate that.
I am reading your replies today, which means I did not know any of that last night when I started my treatment.

What I did was:

1-) Bought Copper Power at my LFS and went home with it;
2-) Read the bottle for instructions, it says that for a 20g tank you should use 1oz of Copper Power, I've used only .50oz (I was scared to add it to the tank and kill everyone);
2-) I forgot to get a test kit for copper, so I am getting that today so I can check and add some more if I see the need, since I did not dose the recommended amount, I will probably have to add some more;
3-) Cleaned up detritus, installed some ammonia check to the glass, tested the water pH and fed the fish with Metroplex - they ate it all, were very hungry and apparently OKAY;
4-) I've checked on the fish this morning, first thing I did, was afraid they'd be dead, to my surprise they were all alive and fine (I have not lost a fish since I found out I have ich, I think I am lucky...)

My questions are:

1-) Should I keep on going with Copper Power (despite your replies, I know, but I think I can control the dosage...)?
2-) Can I keep medicating their food regardless what method I am using to treat the issue (like Copper Power + medicated food with Metroplex)?
3-) In case you'd still suggest to change to TTM, should I dump the current water? Or should I just keep on going with Copper Power?
4-) What are the "permanent harm" to the fish after a Copper treatment?

Thank you all so much!


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Old 02/13/2018, 08:18 AM   #12
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No 100% absolutely way to do this kiMxD. If your fish are eating well in QT and you have treated the water and are on top of your water changes in QT, I personally say keep doing what you are doing and just sit and wait. On the DT, you can increase the temp some to try to decrease the time to get the ich from the display, but at the same time it still will take time.

It sucks starting out the hobby with this particular issue and shame on your LFS for allowing you (unless you're impatient like most, lol) to get to this point. I would almost recommend bringing the fish back to them and see if they will give you the full credit for a future purchase and just let things get back to normal. They assisted in getting you in this mess so they should definitely want to help you get out of it.

Most LFS have hospital tanks already setup. That way you can get more educated on what you are currently going through and be prepared the next time once you are ready to introduce fish to the aquarium. It isn't the end of the world to have ich. There are beautiful tanks that have ich and the owners control it by different introduction methods of new live stock to them. The way you introduce fish and the order you introduce them also helps to decrease stress, etc. Lights out is a great way to do it so that give the new tank mate time to find hiding spots when they feel stressed.

I am by no means the expert on saltwater aquariums and treating for diseases. Just some stuff that was picked up from the time I have been in the hobby. Also now that you know what ich looks like I would be extremely careful when getting the fish from the LFS that you purchased everything from. Still QT every new purchase, but if there tanks show signs of ich on their fish in the store, I would not buy from them until they can at least have fish in their own tanks that do not show signs of ich. I did that when I noticed that my LFS tanks didn't look so well.

Just my $0.02.


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Old 02/13/2018, 12:25 PM   #13
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No 100% absolutely way to do this kiMxD. If your fish are eating well in QT and you have treated the water and are on top of your water changes in QT, I personally say keep doing what you are doing and just sit and wait. On the DT, you can increase the temp some to try to decrease the time to get the ich from the display, but at the same time it still will take time.

It sucks starting out the hobby with this particular issue and shame on your LFS for allowing you (unless you're impatient like most, lol) to get to this point. I would almost recommend bringing the fish back to them and see if they will give you the full credit for a future purchase and just let things get back to normal. They assisted in getting you in this mess so they should definitely want to help you get out of it.

Most LFS have hospital tanks already setup. That way you can get more educated on what you are currently going through and be prepared the next time once you are ready to introduce fish to the aquarium. It isn't the end of the world to have ich. There are beautiful tanks that have ich and the owners control it by different introduction methods of new live stock to them. The way you introduce fish and the order you introduce them also helps to decrease stress, etc. Lights out is a great way to do it so that give the new tank mate time to find hiding spots when they feel stressed.

I am by no means the expert on saltwater aquariums and treating for diseases. Just some stuff that was picked up from the time I have been in the hobby. Also now that you know what ich looks like I would be extremely careful when getting the fish from the LFS that you purchased everything from. Still QT every new purchase, but if there tanks show signs of ich on their fish in the store, I would not buy from them until they can at least have fish in their own tanks that do not show signs of ich. I did that when I noticed that my LFS tanks didn't look so well.

Just my $0.02.
Thank you mitch91175!

I have a questions that just popped here...

Last night I've added Prime to control any possible ammonia spike... Did I do a bad thing?
I am reading and it looks like that I was not supposed to do that?

My wife checked the tank for me this afternoon and she said that the fish look fine...

In case I wasn't supposed to have done it, should I do a water change? How many gl are suggested?

As well, how often (generally) do I have to do a water change? What's the recommended percentage?

Thank you guys!


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Old 02/13/2018, 12:38 PM   #14
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Copper, the reef safe forms that is, is a tried and true method that will work provided you don't overdose. You exercised great caution in going half dose and you recognize the need to keep ammonia in check. IMO you are doing the right things and you should continue to finish the treatment you started. I have tired all three methods and if you follow the instructs to the tee, your fish will survive the Ick parasite. Personally, I have never had any long lasting effects of reef safe copper treatments except for the first time 25 years ago now when I killed a fish by not managing the copper dosage correctly. Good luck!


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Old 02/13/2018, 01:20 PM   #15
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Copper, the reef safe forms that is, is a tried and true method that will work provided you don't overdose. You exercised great caution in going half dose and you recognize the need to keep ammonia in check. IMO you are doing the right things and you should continue to finish the treatment you started. I have tired all three methods and if you follow the instructs to the tee, your fish will survive the Ick parasite. Personally, I have never had any long lasting effects of reef safe copper treatments except for the first time 25 years ago now when I killed a fish by not managing the copper dosage correctly. Good luck!
Thank you Uncle99!

I'd still like to hear about you guys on my use of Prime last night... What are you thoughts?

Thank you all!


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Old 02/13/2018, 02:07 PM   #16
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I have not used prime for ammonia in qt, just small regular water changes


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Old 02/14/2018, 07:33 AM   #17
kiMxD
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Hello everyone!

I thank you all for the inputs. I really appreciate that.
I am reading your replies today, which means I did not know any of that last night when I started my treatment.

What I did was:

1-) Bought Copper Power at my LFS and went home with it;
2-) Read the bottle for instructions, it says that for a 20g tank you should use 1oz of Copper Power, I've used only .50oz (I was scared to add it to the tank and kill everyone);
2-) I forgot to get a test kit for copper, so I am getting that today so I can check and add some more if I see the need, since I did not dose the recommended amount, I will probably have to add some more;
3-) Cleaned up detritus, installed some ammonia check to the glass, tested the water pH and fed the fish with Metroplex - they ate it all, were very hungry and apparently OKAY;
4-) I've checked on the fish this morning, first thing I did, was afraid they'd be dead, to my surprise they were all alive and fine (I have not lost a fish since I found out I have ich, I think I am lucky...)

My questions are:

1-) Should I keep on going with Copper Power (despite your replies, I know, but I think I can control the dosage...)?
2-) Can I keep medicating their food regardless what method I am using to treat the issue (like Copper Power + medicated food with Metroplex)?
3-) In case you'd still suggest to change to TTM, should I dump the current water? Or should I just keep on going with Copper Power?
4-) What are the "permanent harm" to the fish after a Copper treatment?

Thank you all so much!

UPDATE--------------------

Day 3 on quarantine/hospital tank

- Did a 40% water change (that's because I had added Prime to the copper treated water );
- Added some more Copper Power to the tank (I test the copper levels before and after this);
- Fed the fish (purposely after the stress of water change and maintenance of detritus to see how well they'd respond to food), didn't add any garlic to the food, only Metroplex + Focus, I am using Reef Frenzy frozen food... The fish responded great, eating and going after the food!
- Raised the temperature from 77 to 80 (trying to speed up a bit the Ich life cycle) on both qt/hospital and DT tanks.
- Checked the fish this morning, all doing well and no signs of Ich anymore (although that doesn't mean anything, at least I am not seeing them suffering trying to scratch against the glass).

Just a side note, I am NOT USING THE RECOMMENDED DOSAGE for Copper Power, I am using probably 30% less than what's suggested.

Will keep on updating until the 72 days are gone.

Thank y'all for your amazing inputs and support!


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Old 02/14/2018, 09:04 AM   #18
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Using less, you are smart, things are going well.
You doing all the right things...well done


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Old 02/14/2018, 10:12 AM   #19
kiMxD
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Using less, you are smart, things are going well.
You doing all the right things...well done
Thank you Uncle99!

It's my first experience with Ich so I am trying to comply with almost everything I've been reading about it and use my own judgment as well.

I will keep on updating this thread.


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Old 02/14/2018, 01:56 PM   #20
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Hate the be the killjoy ofvthe thread, but copper has to be used at a very specific level in order for it to work. Anything under the effective amount, you may as well be spitting in the water.

This is the exact reason why no one recommended using it.


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Old 02/14/2018, 02:34 PM   #21
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Hate the be the killjoy ofvthe thread, but copper has to be used at a very specific level in order for it to work. Anything under the effective amount, you may as well be spitting in the water.

This is the exact reason why no one recommended using it.
Thank you Bent!

I've read that too. But I am still afraid to go to high up on the copper levels. I will increase it slowly over the course of 72 days. I want the fish to get used to it slowly. I feel so bad doing that to then... If copper doesnt work I will just do hypo or TTM...


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Old 02/14/2018, 02:57 PM   #22
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Thank you Bent!

I've read that too. But I am still afraid to go to high up on the copper levels. I will increase it slowly over the course of 72 days. I want the fish to get used to it slowly. I feel so bad doing that to then... If copper doesnt work I will just do hypo or TTM...
Hypo is the same way, you have to be very specific and very meticulous about the salinity for it to be effective.

TTM is pretty much the gold standard but nothing can really beat the simplicity of CP.

Your doing this the hard way IMO.


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Old 02/14/2018, 03:28 PM   #23
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Copper Power is chelated copper and you need to make sure you are using the right test kit to measure for it. i believe you want to be using the API test kit for it.
You will need to get the concentration up to 2.5ppm and doing it slowly is the best way (3-5 days). once you get it to this therapeutic level is when the 30 day clock starts.
I personally like using copper safe since its known to have a wider range of therapeutic level therefore making it easier to work with.
Never use any prime or ammonia reducers with copper.
Copper is poison, plain and simple, and you don't want to over expose your fish to it so usually its best to raise it up within 3-5 days, maintain the correct level for 30 days and then remove it.
If you have a second qt tank that you can setup, you can take them out after 14 days in copper (therapeutic level) and transfer only the fish to another sterile qt. Only fish gets transferred and no equipment. The second qt should be at least 10' away from the first.


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Old 02/15/2018, 07:33 AM   #24
kiMxD
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Copper Power is chelated copper and you need to make sure you are using the right test kit to measure for it. i believe you want to be using the API test kit for it.
You will need to get the concentration up to 2.5ppm and doing it slowly is the best way (3-5 days). once you get it to this therapeutic level is when the 30 day clock starts.
I personally like using copper safe since its known to have a wider range of therapeutic level therefore making it easier to work with.
Never use any prime or ammonia reducers with copper.
Copper is poison, plain and simple, and you don't want to over expose your fish to it so usually its best to raise it up within 3-5 days, maintain the correct level for 30 days and then remove it.
If you have a second qt tank that you can setup, you can take them out after 14 days in copper (therapeutic level) and transfer only the fish to another sterile qt. Only fish gets transferred and no equipment. The second qt should be at least 10' away from the first.
Thank you for your useful post!

Today is day 4 and I still have to add another 4ml to get to the therapeutic level.

My fish is doing great, eating aggressively, swimming naturally and only my dottyback still shows a very little bit of white spots. The Hawaiian Zebra Blenny doesn't show anything, and they are NOT trying to scratch against decorations anymore...

I think that's a good sign (although I know ich could be on the second stage, dropping off their bodies)...

I should raise the copper to therapeutic level tonight with the addition of another 5ml.

I have the fish in my 20g long hospital tank and will surely remove them from there after 14 days (counting from tomorrow and on).

I am medicating the food every other day with Metroplex + Focus, please share your thoughts about it

Thank you all!


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Old 02/15/2018, 09:33 AM   #25
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Yes to specific levels, but just what is that, what the manufacture says?
Dosage is guided by salinity and temp and that varies from tank to tank.
The OP is doing the right thing by gradually increasing the dosage and watching what how the patient responds, it may take several days to bring the amount up to max, I always stop short of max and not exceed 90% of the reccommended, and in two cases, stopped about 70% when the Ick fell off.
After the Ick falls off, then I go to Hypo for 2 weeks, then bring the salinity up to norm slowly over the last week.
I think the OP is smart.


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