Algae Scrubber Basics

[Floyd R Turbo]

Thanks mpsteve that helps

So the screen right now is 13x10=130 sq in which by the feeding guideline is over 10 cubes/day. The light being ~12-14W probably, that's more closely matching a screen that is maybe 7x7 or 8x8 at the most, so if you look at it from the perspective of "the light is limiting the screen's capacity" then you have a 4 to 5 cube/day scrubber.

the amount you are feeding is probably (ballpark) in the 3 cube/day range, so ideally the screen should be able to support a bit more feeding - you've got some "breathing room" with your setup.

If you keep increasing feeding and start to push the capacity of the scrubber, all you need to do is switch out one of the lights for larger one with more coverage and you've added a few cubes/day to the overall capacity. Then you can move that fixture to the other side and that would effectively increase it a bit more.

But back to the center fill-in, what you could try is backing the fixture off slightly and extending the "on" time to compensate. This would be similar to dimming. Backing the fixture off will cut the center intensity down and might let that fill in. With the lenses on the fixture, you can probably safely back that off 1" without negatively affecting the growth.

I guess before I say to do that, I should also ask: how far away are those lights now (pic would help too) and how many hours/day do you run them? forgive me if you already answered these...it's been a long week

[Floyd R Turbo]

Also how long have you been running this scrubber on your system?

[mpsteve]

Originally Posted by Floyd R Turbo

Also how long have you been running this scrubber on your system?

8 months, and the lights are maybe 8-10 inches away

Best picture I have right now I'm at school

[SantaMonica]

Attachment 361785

This is classic detachment from dead roots

[sensei]

Originally Posted by SantaMonica

Attachment 361785

This is classic detachment from dead roots

Santa Monica,

What can be the cause of this detachment?
to much light intensity? to much light time? to much flow?

Thanks for your answer

[Floyd R Turbo]

Originally Posted by SantaMonica

This is classic detachment from dead roots

That would be true if there was growth there one day, and gone the next. But if I am understanding this correctly there has never really been a lot of growth there.

So "it looks like it could be detachment" might be the better than a definitive answer without gathering all the information to come to that conclusion.

All you have to do is read through this thread and you can see where you frequently jump to conclusions without asking any questions first.

Originally Posted by sensei

What can be the cause of this detachment?
to much light intensity? to much light time? to much flow?

Detachment is usually when your light isn't strong enough to reach the base of growth, usually when you let the growth period go too long and it gets very thick, and usually when it's an open-air screen or the growth isn't filling in like 3D growth should.

So detachment is possible, but that would be something you should have been able to notice happening. And I don't think it makes sense given the situation, but it does raise a few questions that need to be asked

How long did you let the screen grow for this particular example?

How consistently have you been seeing the lack of growth in the middle of the screen?

Have you ever pulled out a screen and had full coverage in the center?

Have you checked the screen a regular periods during the growth cycle and noticed that you have growth in the center one day, then on a subsequent day you do not have growth?

When you pull the screen out of the growth chamber, is there significant algae that "sticks" to the growth chamber and pulls off of the screen as you remove it, and does that line up with this area of low growth?

Have you noticed large chunks of algae freely floating around the tank, or lodged onto rock (i.e. algae that is easily removed, indicating that it did not grow on the rock but rather just "deposited" there)?

[SantaMonica]

Waterfall detachment is when flow and light no longer can reach the screen, and it dies off, letting go usually in the middle of the screen. The remaining growth has turned yellow or wheat color. Screen should be cleaned before this.

[jason2459]

Originally Posted by mpsteve

8 months, and the lights are maybe 8-10 inches away

Best picture I have right now I'm at school

....

Just a side note. I hope you don't depend on that check valve...

[mpsteve]

Originally Posted by jason2459

Just a side note. I hope you don't depend on that check valve...

No the 125 sump has maybe 80 gallons in it and the 1 inch return is only 15 long so it's not holding 45 gallons. It's there to stop back flow during every feeding but if it fails I'm also good

[jason2459]

Originally Posted by mpsteve

No the 125 sump has maybe 80 gallons in it and the 1 inch return is only 15 long so it's not holding 45 gallons. It's there to stop back flow during every feeding but if it fails I'm also good

Ok good.

FWIW, I have my return stop 4 times a day as well but I like to let the back flow happen. Kind of like a backwash on the pump to help keep it "clean". Seems to do something as every time the return turns back on I get some bacteria snot blown out into the aquarium. Fish seem to like it and swarm around probably going after tiny pods.

[mpsteve]

Originally Posted by jason2459

Ok good.

FWIW, I have my return stop 4 times a day as well but I like to let the back flow happen. Kind of like a backwash on the pump to help keep it "clean". Seems to do something as every time the return turns back on I get some bacteria snot blown out into the aquarium. Fish seem to like it and swarm around probably going after tiny pods.

Never thought about that. When my sump was under the tank I did rely on it. That's why I have a 125 in the basement now

[sensei]

I have 2 ATS installed in my 600g system.
I started with a 2 cube ATS around 5 months ago. that ATS grew algae but it was never very green, is has always been producing a very dark color slimy algae .
here is the picture after 14 days . this algae is slimy and very thin

2 cube side 2.jpg

1 month ago I installed a 4 cube ATS in the same system, this ATS seems to be growing a different very green nice thick algae. here is the picture after 7 days

4 cube ATS 7 days.jpg

Why are different kind of algae growing in each ATS if both are in same system?
Is one more desirable than the other one?

Thanks for your answer

[Floyd R Turbo]

You say the L2 looks dark and slimy, but I just don't see that - it looks clumpier

Same questions though:

How consistently have you been seeing the lack of growth in the middle of the screen?

Have you ever pulled out a screen and had full coverage in the center?

Have you checked the screen a regular periods during the growth cycle and noticed that you have growth in the center one day, then on a subsequent day you do not have growth?

When you pull the screen out of the growth chamber, is there significant algae that "sticks" to the growth chamber and pulls off of the screen as you remove it, and does that line up with this area of low growth?

Have you noticed large chunks of algae freely floating around the tank, or lodged onto rock (i.e. algae that is easily removed, indicating that it did not grow on the rock but rather just "deposited" there)?

[sensei]

Originally Posted by Floyd R Turbo

You say the L2 looks dark and slimy, but I just don't see that - it looks clumpier

Same questions though:

How consistently have you been seeing the lack of growth in the middle of the screen?

Have you ever pulled out a screen and had full coverage in the center?

Have you checked the screen a regular periods during the growth cycle and noticed that you have growth in the center one day, then on a subsequent day you do not have growth?

When you pull the screen out of the growth chamber, is there significant algae that "sticks" to the growth chamber and pulls off of the screen as you remove it, and does that line up with this area of low growth?

Have you noticed large chunks of algae freely floating around the tank, or lodged onto rock (i.e. algae that is easily removed, indicating that it did not grow on the rock but rather just "deposited" there)?

I have seen lack of growth in the last 2 cleaning cycles.
NO I have not seen alage floating frely.
no there is no significalt algae in growing chamber.

I made a change in the light skedule of the 2 cube ATS.
I was doing 100% intensity and 24hours of light on.
I reduced intensity to 75% and leds 90 min on , 30 min off and I now see algae in the middle section. I will be cheking screen 2 times per week to see the changes.

Now, going back to my other question:
is the algae that I am getting in the 4 cube better than the one in the 2 cube ATS??
algae is more light green in color and each filament is thinkier than the other one. I think this other kind of algae growth faster than theone in the 2 cube

[Floyd R Turbo]

Originally Posted by sensei

I have seen lack of growth in the last 2 cleaning cycles.
NO I have not seen alage floating frely.
no there is no significalt algae in growing chamber.

I made a change in the light skedule of the 2 cube ATS.
I was doing 100% intensity and 24hours of light on.

this does not indicate detachment - I didn't think it was, because we had emailed about the light levels

Originally Posted by sensei

Now, going back to my other question:
is the algae that I am getting in the 4 cube better than the one in the 2 cube ATS??
algae is more light green in color and each filament is thinkier than the other one. I think this other kind of algae growth faster than theone in the 2 cube

I don't know that it's "better", but the difference could be explained by looking at the sequence of events: You add the L2 into the (large) system and it takes a while to get going. My theory is that there is somewhat of a "conditioning" phase, meaning, the tank set point will shift around as the algae scrubber starts growing - the system dynamics are affected.

You other L2 on the 125 didn't have as much volume to "deal with" so it ramped up to a good growth pattern relatively fast. This just is taking longer on the 600. Now you add the L4 into the 600 and it "steps into the picture" with a partially conditioned tank and takes off. Some slight adjustments to the L2 and it should start to follow suit. Just give it time.

This "conditioning phase" is really only a theory that seems to fit the facts in several cases I've seen - instances where a brand-new screen is used to replace a mature one, and the screen takes off very quickly.

The "dark" algae is usually dark because it's dense, at least, the stuff you are seeing on the L2 is. It grows in clods or clumps of very fine hair, very dense - I can see that in the pic. The problem with this growth is the density - it's GHA and that's what you want but the density causes shading and then detachment, and the detachment usually looks circular. This has been explained away as "pod circles" in the past, but IMO it's not that - it's clump detachment of that type of growth. But it has to get large, and you've got that all around the edges but not in the middle, and it's not detaching around the edges, so that's why the detachment-in-the-middle explanation does not make any sense.

So in short, thin out the clods/clumps often but don't fully scrape them. Maybe take the scraper and use a corner to scrape off 1/3 of it, right down the middle, and right down to the screen, leaving the 2 outer edges of the clump in tact to re-grow from. You could do this weekly if you wanted to, and if the clump is growing on both sides of the screen, scrape vertically through the clump on one side and horizontally through the other side (so that you have a "+" sign of scraping)

[sensei]

ok, I will report back in a few days.
another question:
I do not know why I am getting a lot of algae in dt of the 600g.
I have 4 400w metal halides on for 6 hours, have 21 fish ( 8 tangs), and feed 3 cubes
I have the 2 ATS running now, what should I expect?

I just blowed the rocks with a power head to detach the algae in dt and used a filter sock to filter it. some of the algae detaches the rocks . is this a good practice to do until algae in dt is under control?

[Floyd R Turbo]

Originally Posted by sensei

ok, I will report back in a few days.
another question:
I do not know why I am getting a lot of algae in dt of the 600g.
I have 4 400w metal halides on for 6 hours, have 21 fish ( 8 tangs), and feed 3 cubes
I have the 2 ATS running now, what should I expect?

It's hard to say, could be several things.

How old are the MH lamps? What kelvin/temperature? Any other supplemental lighting like LED or T5HO in addition to the MH?

It could be something related to the rocks also. I know you've told me the history of where the rockwork came from but I would have to go back and look it up. If it's relatively new rock, could be a phase. If it's old mature rock, it could be nutrient-loaded.

Originally Posted by sensei

I just blowed the rocks with a power head to detach the algae in dt and used a filter sock to filter it. some of the algae detaches the rocks . is this a good practice to do until algae in dt is under control?

yes, if you are worried about it taking over, blowing off the rocks a couple times a week is OK

[sensei]

MH lamps are 6 months old. four radium 20K 400W lamps.
I was doing led lights before and after the 6 hours of MH, but I stopped 2 days ago and now I am only doing 6 hours MH everyday.
rocks were dead from a mine so no nutrient there.
I checked the 2 cube ATS and it looks like it is doing well now , I see green GHA now after the cleaning that I did last week.

Thanks again

Thanks

[Floyd R Turbo]

Originally Posted by sensei

rocks were dead from a mine so no nutrient there

Could you elaborate a bit please? Rocks from a "mine" seem to indicate to me that these might not be the type of rock that most people use in a reef system - that being, rock that is actually pulled from the ocean at some point.

Using rock from a non-ocean origination point might change things a bit...

[sensei]

I used this kind or rock:
http://www.caribsea.com/caribsea_liferock.html

it is mined rock

[Floyd R Turbo]

Just googling "caribsea life rock algae problems" found this thread here

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/sh....php?t=2567850

Not saying it's the rock, but can't necessarily rule that out. Either way, that would be a phase IMO, any rock issues like that eventually burn out.

Speaking of burning it out, one of those "against the grain" ideas here (goes against normal advice) on rock that has algae issues it to actually hit it with more light, for longer. The idea being that it only has so much "fuel" embedded in it, and you either draw it out slow enough that it doesn't cause major issues, or you floor it and burn it all out as fast as possible. So, run the MH lights for long hours and just let the algae grow until it can't grow anymore because the fuel it all gone.

The other method is to draw it out slowly, and this does work, and is the route that most people take for in-tank "treatment" because it causes the least problems with corals etc.

The algae scrubber is going to have a bit of a tough time competing with tank algae on rock when the fuel for that algae is in the rocks. But it generally can't last forever.

This is where the "phosphate flow" theory comes into play. If you have the scrubber(s) running great and pulling the nutrient levels down in the water column, then your bacteria in the tank would "look" for other sources of phosphate, and they would find it in the rock. The theory (not 100% mine but I "subscribe" to it or parts of it) is the phosphate solublizing bacteria (PSBs) release the phosphate from the rock, and the algae and bacteria sort of work together so the algae grows as a result (that's the quick version). This can only go on until the source is drained.

This isn't limited to algae scrubbers. You can have the same effect by using a ton of GFO/etc and dropping water column phosphate out of availability.

You can get rid of phosphate in rock by curing it in a separate tub with no light, a skimmer, and GFO for a few months, let the bacteria get all the gunk out, to the dunking process, etc, the whole 9 yards, it's the same basic process.

The difference is that you have to do this in your tank, so you are going to get algae, most likely.

I think the thing here is that not everyone has algae problems with "dry rock" so the general opinion is that you don't need to cure it. What should be said is that "it's not necessary" to cure it. But that doesn't necessarily mean that it's going to be 100% problem free for everyone. I've heard lots of bad things about BRS tonga rock for instance, some have no issues, others have huge problems with phosphates. It seems CaribSea LifeRock is in the same boat.

[sensei]

I get the point.
I can not go strong with the light because I have coral in tank.
I added 25% of the recommended dose of GFO and now the 2 ATS seem to be working fine, so we will see what happens. I need to clean the ATS this Thursday.
I will report back after the cleanings

Thanks

[Floyd R Turbo]

Sounds good...I wasn't trying to convince you what to do / force an idea, just passing on the information and options that's all

[sensei]

Thanks,
I always learn from all the info in these posts
great info to know,
Thanks again

[Fuel Doodle]

Are these the correct light bulbs I want to be using for my ATS:


Thanks.

I also have a tank thread on RC. Let me know if you could if my ATS needs help or changes/advice. "Started from a nano now I'm here"



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