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Unread 07/19/2010, 06:07 PM   #1
Stephen73ta
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Need help with cheap sump

I'm building a small sump 12x10x12" and i was hoping that i could get away with 1/4" plexiglass. or do i have to buy cast? If cast is the only way to go, what's the thinnest glass i'd be able to get away with?


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Unread 07/19/2010, 06:31 PM   #2
mike_cmu04
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1/4" will probably bend and fail once you get water pressure on it.


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Unread 07/19/2010, 06:50 PM   #3
uncleof6
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To be very direct, and perhaps blunt, sumps should not run more than half full. With only about 3 gallons at half full, it is not really worth the investment to build it. The volume increase for the system, stability wise, will make no difference. Even filled to just overflowing, @ 6 gallons, it is insignificant. To get a stability increase, especially, with the 28: double the volume of the system. Some would argue that something is better than nothing, however, something that does nothing-- is the same as nothing.

Having said that, when building tanks it is not about "thinnest" that can be gotten away with, it is about safe. I am not an acrylic worker, or fan, but I believe 1/4" acrylic will be fine-- CAST, though some prefer extruded, cast is the better material to use-- and don't get it at home depot-- they do not stock "cast" acrylic, and what they do have is junk. For glass, 6mm (1/4" nominal) minimum, and again, home depot does not carry 6mm glass.

By the time you buy the materials, etc., you could go to a store, and buy a 10 gallon tank, and not have to deal with it. Too small, still, for a practical sump, but a lot less hassle than building one.

So as not to totally rain on your parade, you small project would be a great learning experience, rather than attempting a display tank. Throw a submersible pump in it, attach an external skimmer (no room inside.) But I think worrying over water evaporation dropping the water level, the pump sucking air and burning up, might keep you awake at night. The benefits are theoretical, but the REAL benefits, will not likely justify the cost.

Jim


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Unread 07/19/2010, 06:56 PM   #4
Just2Many
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Quote:
Originally Posted by uncleof6 View Post
Jim
+1
Just Buy a 20 gal Min. At a yard sale or Craigs list for $10 Heck ten Gallons are free sometimes...


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Unread 07/19/2010, 07:30 PM   #5
Stephen73ta
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I'm not worried about evaporation. I have an auto top off. I guess I will have to design a taller system to get what I'd like to achieve. I might be able to fit a 20 g tall. I'll have to look up the dimensions of the tank. The floor of the stand has a blue print of 20x12.75 and 30" of height.

20 gallon tall is too wide. i might just end up using some kind of bucket or rubbermaid container

or i could use 2 10g and build a shelf.. hmm


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Unread 07/19/2010, 07:41 PM   #6
glazer
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Nano sump I made... 12" deep, 11" tall, 18" in width. Made with 7/32" or almost .22 inches so not even 1/4" stuff. Filled it with water and ran it for a week to test for leaks. It didn't bow, explode or implode or disappear into a black hole. Holds my heater, chiller and a return pump so I don't have to have a powerhead in the nano or any other equipment for that matter. I don't consider it impractical at all.... but what do I know, I didn't ask anybody first before I built it. Just being direct and blunt I guess.

Steve


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Unread 07/19/2010, 08:31 PM   #7
uncleof6
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Be sure to let us know how it is holding up two years from now.........
Big difference between "works" and "practical." Bigger difference between "theoretical" and "real." Please let us know the "real" benefits, a year or so down the road.

But hey, we are a lot more alike than you think: I don't ask anyone before I do something either. I can't know anything either

Alrighty then.....

Regards


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Unread 07/19/2010, 08:43 PM   #8
Brando457
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Quote:
Originally Posted by uncleof6 View Post
Be sure to let us know how it is holding up two years from now.........
Big difference between "works" and "practical." Bigger difference between "theoretical" and "real." Please let us know the "real" benefits, a year or so down the road.

But hey, we are a lot more alike than you think: I don't ask anyone before I do something either. I can't know anything either

Alrighty then.....

Regards
The perks I see are that it will hold all his equipment and although may not be beneficial as far as adding volume, having all the equipment out of the main tank is a plus I see.


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Unread 07/19/2010, 08:53 PM   #9
milkman55
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Glazer, that is got to be one of the best examples of an "all-in-one" sump I have seen.
Give the volume of water that would be holding, the material seems more than adequate.
Good job.


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Unread 07/19/2010, 10:32 PM   #10
glazer
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Thanks milkman


Quote:
Originally Posted by uncleof6 View Post
Be sure to let us know how it is holding up two years from now.........
Big difference between "works" and "practical." Bigger difference between "theoretical" and "real." Please let us know the "real" benefits, a year or so down the road.

But hey, we are a lot more alike than you think: I don't ask anyone before I do something either. I can't know anything either

Alrighty then.....

Regards
If you really want to know how it's holding up I will indeed keep you informed sir.

I've built about two dozen of these small sumps for clients now. Unfortunately most people don't keep nanos running all that long before they move up, move out or just plain get bored with it. I do know where seven of them are, and I do know of those the oldest still running is now almost eight years old.

As far as practical, beneficial, I don't know what you are getting at. A ten gallon sump on 150 gallon tank.. yeah I would agree. Not worth the effort. On a small system, any added water volume is a benefit. Keeping all the equipment out of the main display..practical for not giving up the extra real estate and beneficial at least asthetically.

I don't understand your comment either about sumps should only be ran half full. Why is that? As long as your return compartment/pump doesn't have access to more water than your display can hold before overflowing what would be the issue with how much water is in your sump?

Evaporation and burning a pump up? Doesn't matter if your sump is five gallons or five hundred... ways to deal with that. ATOs, low level float switches, maintenance and upkeep, etc.

Sump has to be twice the size volume wise of what it is servicing to be of any value? Well it would seem then that about eighty percent of the people here on RC are just wasting their time then. The OP said only later that the footprint of his stand is 20 by 12 3/4", how big a tank could be sitting on top of that anyway? Ten, fifteen gallons? I'm guessing... Can't be much and another five gallons in a sump sure isn't going to hurt anything.

So, if I'm the only one that read your direct and blunt response as telling him his project/idea was worthless and a waste of time then I apologize for my direct and blunt response.


Steve


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Unread 07/20/2010, 12:15 AM   #11
uncleof6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by glazer View Post
Thanks milkman




If you really want to know how it's holding up I will indeed keep you informed sir.
If I was not serious, I would not have mentioned it.

Quote:
I've built about two dozen of these small sumps for clients now. Unfortunately most people don't keep nanos running all that long before they move up, move out or just plain get bored with it. I do know where seven of them are, and I do know of those the oldest still running is now almost eight years old.
I have also, but this is of little consequence, other than I am far too concerned with liability issues, to build out of flimsy material. If we really want to talk numbers, I know where a 100 or so are, the oldest being 12 years, or so-- and have no concern of them falling apart. Bottom line, is you have to be comfortable with what you build. You are comfortable with 5.5mm, I am not. I draw the line at 6mm, and I will not recommend thinner, if I will not use it myself.

Quote:
As far as practical, beneficial, I don't know what you are getting at. A ten gallon sump on 150 gallon tank.. yeah I would agree. Not worth the effort. On a small system, any added water volume is a benefit. Keeping all the equipment out of the main display..practical for not giving up the extra real estate and beneficial at least asthetically.
Did not say it was "not worth the effort" I said it was not worth the investment to BUILD. Or, putting another option: To have someone else build. A ten gallon glass tank, though I do not consider it practical in any sense of the word, regardless of the tank size, would be a better investment.

Quote:
I don't understand your comment either about sumps should only be ran half full. Why is that? As long as your return compartment/pump doesn't have access to more water than your display can hold before overflowing what would be the issue with how much water is in your sump?
Well some of us system designers, think of more than the tank overflowing, and consider power out drain down to be a major concern. The only fool proof safe guard is extra sump volume. The ONLY thing that Murphy cannot get around. I have had many floods in the past 32 years. I have had tanks burst seams, sumps burst seams, flood because they were not big enough, even had drain lines plug up, just about every thing that I "harp" on. But I have never had a tank overflow..... well there is a first time for everything I suppose, I have never found it prudent to "shoe horn" a return pump.

Quote:
Evaporation and burning a pump up? Doesn't matter if your sump is five gallons or five hundred... ways to deal with that. ATOs, low level float switches, maintenance and upkeep, etc.
And all the gadgets can, do, and will at some point fail. Maintenance and upkeep, after the initial excitement, invariably fall short. (Especially where socks are concerned) I find it imprudent to have a return section that cannot go a few days at the least, without attention.

Quote:
Sump has to be twice the size volume wise of what it is servicing to be of any value? Well it would seem then that about eighty percent of the people here on RC are just wasting their time then. The OP said only later that the footprint of his stand is 20 by 12 3/4", how big a tank could be sitting on top of that anyway? Ten, fifteen gallons? I'm guessing... Can't be much and another five gallons in a sump sure isn't going to hurt anything.
Did not say that. I said with tanks this small to get a stability increase, double the system volume. The few gallons, will not give a significant increase in stability. There is no data to point that it does, it is merely repeated with no basis. Pointless to approach it with that view. Double the size of the sump, compared to the main tank, an interesting thought, but I suspect I was pointing in the direction of doubling the main tank size........ for a stability increase.

Quote:
So, if I'm the only one that read your direct and blunt response as telling him his project/idea was worthless and a waste of time then I apologize for my direct and blunt response.


Steve
Never said his project was worthless, said that it was not worth the investment, and regardless of my opinion on small sumps like this, he would be ahead, picking up a 10 gallon tank. The OP wants a cheap sump, as far as I am concerned, the 10 gallon is the way to go, regardless of any other opinions. (or well founded and earned experience) By the time he buys all the materials required, he could probably buy TWO ten gallon tanks. Really should not take posts made to someone else so personally

Though it sounded smart ***, document the benefits of this sump, and its longevity, you will be credited. I cannot however, use anecdotal information.

Regards,

Jim


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Unread 07/20/2010, 10:51 AM   #12
jgrog76
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Two tanks that will fit that footprint are a 15H and a 20XH. They both have the same footprint of a 10g and just are varying heights. I think the 20XH is almost 20" tall. I had the same problem with the inside the stand footpring on my last tank and used the 15H. I could keep about 10g of water in it and 5 for the overflow volume incase of a powerfailure. There is a calculator on RC that will let you know how much room you need to leave in your sump. I have used that recomendation before and it has been very accurate. I still leave and extra % just in case though.


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