Neptune Systems announcement today?

[Mr. Brooks]

A lot of the cost for them is the support staff I'm sure. It's a lifelong support type of product. They have to be able to pay their employee's salaries long after the product is sold.

[ArmanS]

Originally Posted by Bent

Well I did mine like this:
800 unit
30 breakout box
300 dos
250 extra eb8
90 leak modules x3
40 jebao box

1510

Close to 2k, plus add in 91 bucks for sales tax.

No way that will ever happen. Even the 800 bucks is steep for what it is. 500 for the classic is closer to what I want to pay. The markup on this stuff is just insane for what it actually is.

Originally Posted by Bent

I just put an apex together with all the options I think I would want at BRS.

Over 2 grand.

$1600 is not well over 2K!

The R&D to create some of these products is not cheap. Not to mention they have a excellent support team who not only answer questions but also can remotely access your system and spend much more time then most service reps do when assisting.

Also, these products are built to last, once you buy it you typically will get 3+ years out of it easily.

[Salty150]

I will give them that - their support is excellent.

By far one of the best I have gotten from anyone in the industry.

[slief]

The other big part of cost is the dedicated software development team. The Apex let alone any other controller is nothing more than a brick if not for the software behind it. When you factor in the built in web server, Fusion and the forthcoming App, there is a lot of continual software development that goes into these things. Then there is the R&D team that works on new modules/future hardware. When you put it all together, there are a lot of different people doing a lot of different things to develop any aquarium controller and this one is no exception.

[sfdan]

Originally Posted by slief

The other big part of cost is the dedicated software development team. The Apex let alone any other controller is nothing more than a brick if not for the software behind it. When you factor in the built in web server, Fusion and the forthcoming App, there is a lot of continual software development that goes into these things. Then there is the R&D team that works on new modules/future hardware. When you put it all together, there are a lot of different people doing a lot of different things to develop any aquarium controller and this one is no exception.

Additionally they are hosting fusion for free. If I ran the business I would absolutely charge a monthly fee for that. Running and maintaining all those servers isn't free.

[Jyetman]

Originally Posted by sfdan

Additionally they are hosting fusion for free. If I ran the business I would absolutely charge a monthly fee for that. Running and maintaining all those servers isn't free.

Please don't give them any ideas!

[h3dgehog]

Originally Posted by Jyetman

Please don't give them any ideas!

LOL!

Watch out they might give you a 10% discount on the new Apex pre-order and two weeks later announce that you can ONLY use Fusion and will require a $50 monthly use fee!

[Mr.C]

Looks like they could make a module that sits on top of the eb8 to monitor power draw for each outlet. Like in between the male and female plugs.

[mikeatjac]

Too Bent


1510 is not over 2000 and at least I would not have to pay sales tax. I have have no idea if they make a good profit and I suspect you don't either.

For me I can afford the comfort/insurance that a controller provides. I travel a lot so it is a must for me.

[mikeatjac]

In the above post I meant to say I can't afford not to have the comfort/insurance that a controller provides.

[shiftline]

Used all the way. No way I would drop a grand (cdn) on a new one.

I got a used gold package for 550 with an extra brand new salinity probe. Picked up a used/new wmx for 50 and an AFs for 60-70? Can't remember but either way all used and bout it over many months so want bad

[dkeller_nc]

Originally Posted by Bent

Well I did mine like this:
800 unit
30 breakout box
300 dos
250 extra eb8
90 leak modules x3
40 jebao box

Bent - A couple of thoughts on this. For your purposes, and for almost all of the rest of us, the new Apex does not make a lot of sense.

Unless you're doing something very "off piste", there's no need for a conductivity (salinity) probe and certainly not an ORP. These two items alone add nearly 30% to the cost of a Classic (in the form of the "gold" package). I suspect it'd be similar with the new Apex when/if they come out with separate packages without the ORP/salinity probes.

The existing EB8 will do everything you want it to, especially if you don't use or intend to use the WAV pumps. Having individual power draw per outlet and powered ports on the new EB832 are just conveniences, and very minor ones at that. For example, in the case of a DOS unit, using the "classic" configuration just means one extra cord for the DOS unit. Big deal (not). And the existing EB8 is nearly 1/2 the cost of the new one.

One shouldn't, of course, consider the DOS as part of the cost of a controller. To my knowledge, no controller manufacturer offers dosing pumps as an integral feature of the controller itself. And I can tell you from experience that the DOS works flawlessly with the "classic" and Fusion - there's no advantage to getting the new controller as far as DOS functionality goes, with the very small exception of having one less cord.

You asked earlier what the compelling reasons are for having a controller. This is my take:

1) Power monitoring. This is, by far and away, the biggest deal with any controller vs. running a tank without one. And the Apex classic does everything you want in this regard. Which is, with a suitable small and inexpensive UPS for your controller and 'net router, sending you a notification when a line power failure happens. This can very easily save your tank, and is, in my opinion, worth the cost of admission for any controller.

2) Far, far better tank temp control. You mentioned that you had a Ranco. If you're using the Ranco with titanium heater (with no integral thermostat), then the Apex isn't a duplication - you can and should run both the Ranco and the Apex. The Ranco serves as a no-ifs-ands-or-buts safety to ensure that your heater cannot stay on and cook your tank. Similarly, I run eheims with a built in thermostat with my Apex. The built-in thermostats cannot regulate tank temp anywhere near as effectively as the Apex, so those thermostats are set to a max of 82 to prevent a tank temp disaster, and the Apex controls tank temp to 78 +/- 0.1 deg F. On a related note, if you run MHs or live in a hot climate, the Apex should be configured to turn off your lights and send you an alarm if the tank temp goes above (for example) 82 deg. This largely prevents a situation where your home AC fails for some reason and your tank lights fry your tank. This has saved my butt one at least one occasion last summer - my AC failed in the middle of a hot August workday. Had the Apex not sent me an alarm, I'd have come home to a "bait bucket at the end of the dock" scenario. As it turned out, I simply purchased an inexpensive window AC that kept the house and tank reasonably cool for the 3 days that it took to repair the whole house AC.

3) Automated skimmer shutoff. I simply cobbled together a skimmate bucket and installed a cheap float switch. The Apex will shut off the skimmer if the skimmate bucket fills. Unfortunately for me, it required a massive skimmer overflow that ruined a rug for me to get off my duff and add this functionality to my Apex. Lesson Learned.

4) ATO reservoir empty. I added this in the same way as #3 - a $10 float switch. There's no need for that while I'm in town, but this feature saved my cookies while I was on vacation. I had a tank sitter looking after things for me, and it was easy to tell them to add some RODI to the reservoir. That kept me from having to add a large ATO reservoir to ensure that it didn't run out. That's dangerous, since an ATO malfunction coupled with a large reservoir has great potential to overtop the sump, kill the animals from the low salinity, and ruin rugs & floors.

5) Instant display of tank parameters. Personally, I'd rather have the Classic with its display. I want to be able to walk by the tank and see the temp, pH and outlet status instantly - I don't want to have to fumble with my phone or computer (because honestly, I won't. And I don't want to have to configure an alarm for everything).

So my advice to you would be to either purchase the Classic with the pH probe only and a DOS pump to start with, or wait for some of the folks that just have to have the "latest and greatest" to sell their Classic in the forum. I should note that the DOS is a nice unit - very well built, highly accurate, and won't back-siphon. But you can get all of the functionality of the DOS except for the "program by volume" with a couple of inexpensive peristaltic pumps from BRS.

[CHSUB]

I'm going to upgrade and sell my aqua controller 2 for $100, includes 2 energy bars and computer disk to hook to your computer. what do you think Bent, interested?

[Bent]

Originally Posted by dkeller_nc

Bent - A couple of thoughts on this. For your purposes, and for almost all of the rest of us, the new Apex does not make a lot of sense.

Unless you're doing something very "off piste", there's no need for a conductivity (salinity) probe and certainly not an ORP. These two items alone add nearly 30% to the cost of a Classic (in the form of the "gold" package). I suspect it'd be similar with the new Apex when/if they come out with separate packages without the ORP/salinity probes.

The existing EB8 will do everything you want it to, especially if you don't use or intend to use the WAV pumps. Having individual power draw per outlet and powered ports on the new EB832 are just conveniences, and very minor ones at that. For example, in the case of a DOS unit, using the "classic" configuration just means one extra cord for the DOS unit. Big deal (not). And the existing EB8 is nearly 1/2 the cost of the new one.

One shouldn't, of course, consider the DOS as part of the cost of a controller. To my knowledge, no controller manufacturer offers dosing pumps as an integral feature of the controller itself. And I can tell you from experience that the DOS works flawlessly with the "classic" and Fusion - there's no advantage to getting the new controller as far as DOS functionality goes, with the very small exception of having one less cord.

You asked earlier what the compelling reasons are for having a controller. This is my take:

1) Power monitoring. This is, by far and away, the biggest deal with any controller vs. running a tank without one. And the Apex classic does everything you want in this regard. Which is, with a suitable small and inexpensive UPS for your controller and 'net router, sending you a notification when a line power failure happens. This can very easily save your tank, and is, in my opinion, worth the cost of admission for any controller.

2) Far, far better tank temp control. You mentioned that you had a Ranco. If you're using the Ranco with titanium heater (with no integral thermostat), then the Apex isn't a duplication - you can and should run both the Ranco and the Apex. The Ranco serves as a no-ifs-ands-or-buts safety to ensure that your heater cannot stay on and cook your tank. Similarly, I run eheims with a built in thermostat with my Apex. The built-in thermostats cannot regulate tank temp anywhere near as effectively as the Apex, so those thermostats are set to a max of 82 to prevent a tank temp disaster, and the Apex controls tank temp to 78 +/- 0.1 deg F. On a related note, if you run MHs or live in a hot climate, the Apex should be configured to turn off your lights and send you an alarm if the tank temp goes above (for example) 82 deg. This largely prevents a situation where your home AC fails for some reason and your tank lights fry your tank. This has saved my butt one at least one occasion last summer - my AC failed in the middle of a hot August workday. Had the Apex not sent me an alarm, I'd have come home to a "bait bucket at the end of the dock" scenario. As it turned out, I simply purchased an inexpensive window AC that kept the house and tank reasonably cool for the 3 days that it took to repair the whole house AC.

3) Automated skimmer shutoff. I simply cobbled together a skimmate bucket and installed a cheap float switch. The Apex will shut off the skimmer if the skimmate bucket fills. Unfortunately for me, it required a massive skimmer overflow that ruined a rug for me to get off my duff and add this functionality to my Apex. Lesson Learned.

4) ATO reservoir empty. I added this in the same way as #3 - a $10 float switch. There's no need for that while I'm in town, but this feature saved my cookies while I was on vacation. I had a tank sitter looking after things for me, and it was easy to tell them to add some RODI to the reservoir. That kept me from having to add a large ATO reservoir to ensure that it didn't run out. That's dangerous, since an ATO malfunction coupled with a large reservoir has great potential to overtop the sump, kill the animals from the low salinity, and ruin rugs & floors.

5) Instant display of tank parameters. Personally, I'd rather have the Classic with its display. I want to be able to walk by the tank and see the temp, pH and outlet status instantly - I don't want to have to fumble with my phone or computer (because honestly, I won't. And I don't want to have to configure an alarm for everything).

So my advice to you would be to either purchase the Classic with the pH probe only and a DOS pump to start with, or wait for some of the folks that just have to have the "latest and greatest" to sell their Classic in the forum. I should note that the DOS is a nice unit - very well built, highly accurate, and won't back-siphon. But you can get all of the functionality of the DOS except for the "program by volume" with a couple of inexpensive peristaltic pumps from BRS.

Thank you very much for this amount of detail. You have actually just changed my mind and I really appreciate the big dose of reality you injected into it vs just buying the new thing simply because it's new.

I may possibly reconsider.

[mikeatjac]

Another reason to have a controller is if your tank bust Bent. You said this happened to you. A friend of mine spent 8000 fixing a wooden floor. He was at work at the time his tank broke so the water sat there for 6 hours. The contractor told him if had gotten it cleaned up in within an hour there would have been no damage.

[Bent]

Originally Posted by mikeatjac

Another reason to have a controller is if your tank bust Bent. You said this happened to you. A friend of mine spent 8000 fixing a wooden floor. He was at work at the time his tank broke so the water sat there for 6 hours. The contractor told him if had gotten it cleaned up in within an hour there would have been no damage.

That was one of the main reasons I wanted one, but I ended up buying a wifi water alarm instead.

[scuzy]

Can your Wi-Fi alarm shut off pumps as needed? Sometimes you might of have a plumbing leak instead of a tank breaking. The cook thing about the power outlet monitor lets you know if pump failed. Since currently you can't rest for pump failures. With lower monitoring of outlet you know if the lumps working correctly or not.


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[dkeller_nc]

Originally Posted by Bent

Thank you very much for this amount of detail. You have actually just changed my mind and I really appreciate the big dose of reality you injected into it vs just buying the new thing simply because it's new.

I may possibly reconsider.

You're welcome. Don't get me wrong, I love toys. But some of the reef tank toys are really, really useful, and some of them are just "nice to haves". To me, the updates associated with the new Apex fall into that latter category. My opinion might be different if the upcoming FMM wouldn't work with the Apex classic, but Neptune seems to have confirmed that it will.

The automation project I'm working on at the moment with my Apex is a shut-off valve for my RODI unit. I'm embarrassed to say that I've forgotten about it twice in the last 6 months and run water through it for several days before I went back down to the basement and figured out it was on. Tunze sells a fairly pricey unit that will do it, but since I've the Apex, it just requires a float sensor and an electric solenoid water valve.

[Bent]

Originally Posted by scuzy

Can your Wi-Fi alarm shut off pumps as needed? Sometimes you might of have a plumbing leak instead of a tank breaking. The cook thing about the power outlet monitor lets you know if pump failed. Since currently you can't rest for pump failures. With lower monitoring of outlet you know if the lumps working correctly or not.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I can do it manually with a wifi outlet.

[Settings]

I'm placing an order for one to replace my classic. I'm working on replacing much of my equipment as I want to get rid of my ecotech products and only have products that play nicely with the apex. It will be nice to get rid of more power bricks from under the stand.

[kendrid]

Is there any info on the new display? Does it work with the old units?

I came home tonight and my tank lights were off. I opened my cabinet doors and the light above the sump didn't turn on as it normally would when the door switches are activated.

I unplugged my entire tank and plugged it back in. Immediately my water change pump turned on. I ran to my PC and checked and it was set off with a default of off. I had to unplug it from the EB8 to turn it off.

I waited a few minutes and the lights were still off but the sump pump and a powerhead was on. Everything was weird and my display was blank.

I power cycled again and it was the same. Since the display was blank I unplugged it. Immediately everything turned on as it should have been. The display was making all of the other devices not work as programmed. I like being able to quickly see the temp of the tank and initiate feeding modes.

I'll be opening a support ticket for this even though my unit is three years old. If I need a new display I am wondering if the new one is "nicer" and if it works with the old systems.

I will now be unplugging my water change pump from the EB8. I am not going to risk it defaulting to ON even though it is programmed to OFF and draining the tank.

Edit: I found a photo of the new display. It is the same LCD with the ugly grey plastic.

[Salty150]

Everyone see that the new energy bar will cost almost $100 more at $249.99.

[Salty150]

What's the deal with EcoTech?

Apex will no longer support EcoTech?

[Kyl]

I believe the line of thinking is given the Vectra is currently not supported for Apex functionality via WXM, and neither side seems to be trying to make this little spat they have going get resolved, it's a harbinger of things to come with future Ecotech <> Neptune products.

[dcmartinpc]

I very much saw that the new powerbar cost skyrocketed. I asked if there was going to be an option without the 1Link built in but I have not received a reply. I have 4 EB8 and 3 EB4. I really have ZERO need for 15+ 1Link ports and 10+ 24v DC Ports..... Zero. Talk about wasted components. I can't believe they haven't said anything about options.....

Don


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