Apex users I have some programming questions - Page 2

Bent · 03/18/2018, 10:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BrettDS

When you’re reading apex programming it really helps to start at the bottom and go up, since lower commands take priority, so reversing this one we have the following:

Min Time 010:00 Then OFF

This one just says that it needs to be off for 10 minutes before it will turn on again.

Defer 002:00 Then ON

This one says that it won’t turn on until the triggers have been in the ON condition for two minutes.

If Time 12:00 to 12:01 Then OFF

This says that if the time is between 12:00:00 (12:00 and 0 seconds) and 12:01:59 (12:01 and 59 seconds) then it will be OFF. If it is between those times, then this is the lowest active command and you don’t need to go any further. The outlet will be OFF no matter what anything above it says. If it is not between those times, then this line does nothing and you can read on.

If SumpHi CLOSED Then OFF

This causes the outlet to turn off if SumpHi is closed. If this is the case, then there’s no need to read further as it takes priority over everything above it and the outlet will be off no matter what is above it. If sumphi is open, then this line does nothing and you can read on.

If Time 11:57 to 11:59 Then ON

This says that if the time is between 11:57:00 and 11:59:59 then it will be ON. If it is between those times, then this is the lowest active command and you don’t need to go any further. The outlet will be ON no matter what anything above it says. If it is not between those times, then this line does nothing and you can read on.

If Time 11:46 to 11:56 Then OFF

This says that if the time is between 11:46:00 and 11:56:59 then it will be OFF. If it is between those times, then this is the lowest active command and you don’t need to go any further. The outlet will be OFF no matter what anything above it says. If it is not between those times, then this line does nothing and you can read on.

If ATO_NL CLOSED Then ON

This causes the outlet to turn on it ATO_NL is closed. If this is the case, then there’s no need to read further as it takes priority over everything above it and the outlet will be on no matter what is above it. If ato_nl is open, then this line does nothing and you can read on.

SET OFF

This causes the outlet to be off no matter what. Anything above it will be overridden. So if you get up here then none of the conditions below apply and the outlet will be off.

FALLBACK OFF

As I said above, this is a safety command in the case of the apex going offline. If the eb8 is still online it will follow the fallback command and in this case turn the outlet off until the apex comes back online and takes over.

Thank you that makes 100% total sense.

homer1475 · 03/18/2018, 12:22 PM

Wow even after having my apex for 4 years and having some pretty complex code, Even I learned something!

Thanks BrettDS!!

Bent · 03/22/2018, 09:20 PM

Ok I had an issue with this today. The sump level was pretty high and I’m not sure the drain actually came on.

I’m going to copy our exactly as I have it now maybe I typed something incorrctly
____________________________
Inputs:

SumpHi
SumpLo
NSW_Lo (new salt water container almost empty)
ATO_NL (normal sump water level)
____________________
Outputs: (all default open)

NSW_E_Delay (virtual outlet)
Sump_Fill
Sump_Drain
ATO_Pump
__________________________
ATO_Pump output code:

Fallback OFF
Set OFF
If ATO_NL CLOSED Then ON
If Time 11:46 to 11:56 Then OFF
If Time 11:57 to 11:59 Then ON
If SumpHi CLOSED Then OFF
If Time 12:00 to 12:01 Then OFF
Defer 002:00 Then ON
Min Time 010:00 Then OFF
____________________________________
Sump_Drain output code:

Fallback OFF
Set OFF
OSC 000:00/000:10/000:50 Then ON
If Time 12:01 to 11:59 Then OFF
If NSW_Lo CLOSED Then OFF
If SumpLo CLOSED Then OFF
If Output ATO_Pump = ON Then OFF
______________________________________
Sump_Fill output code:

Fallback OFF
Set OFF
If Time 12:01 to 12:02 Then ON
If ATO_NL OPEN Then OFF
If SumpHi CLOSED Then OFF
If NSW_Lo CLOSED Then OFF
If Output ATO_Pump = ON Then OFF
If Output NSW_E_Delay = ON Then OFF
_______________________________________
NSW_E_Delay output code: (Virtual Outlet)

Fallback OFF
Set OFF
If NSW_Lo CLOSED Then ON
Defer 001:00 Then ON
___________________________________

That’s everything as it is now. See anything that could be the culprit?

Bent · 03/22/2018, 10:26 PM

Ok I’ve figured it out. It’s not the code....I’m having a mechanical issue.

In the past when I did manual water changes I used to have to turn a ball valve and then turn the sump fill pump on. I had to do this because if I left the gate valve open, the contents of the container would siphon into the sump.

I drilled a hole in the top of the fitting on the inside of the container as a siphon break, inserted a fitting and ran some hose out of it. Apparently this isn’t working, for reasons I’m not quite aware of.

Any ideas how I can fix this so I can keep the gate valve open?

Here’s a pic of where the water level in the container siphoned down to. I had it full up to the cordt hole in the back of the container. It had siphoned down to the level you see on its own with the gate valve open.

BrettDS · 03/22/2018, 11:50 PM

The easiest thing to do is to make sure the exit of the fill tube is higher than the water level in the reservoir. That way it can never start to siphon. Depending on the heights of the water in the sump and the reservoir this may be easier said than done.

If the reservoir is considerably higher than the sump one option would be to make the end of the fill tube higher than the sump, but have it run into a larger tube to take the water down into the sump. So if you’re using 1/2 inch tube for your fill tube, make sure that the end of the 1/2 inch tube is higher than the water level of the reservoir and put the end of the 1/2 inch tube an inch or so down into a 1 inch tube that runs down to your sump. Make sure that there is an air gap around the 1/2 tube so it can’t start to siphon.

Bent · 03/23/2018, 02:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BrettDS

The easiest thing to do is to make sure the exit of the fill tube is higher than the water level in the reservoir. That way it can never start to siphon. Depending on the heights of the water in the sump and the reservoir this may be easier said than done.

If the reservoir is considerably higher than the sump one option would be to make the end of the fill tube higher than the sump, but have it run into a larger tube to take the water down into the sump. So if you’re using 1/2 inch tube for your fill tube, make sure that the end of the 1/2 inch tube is higher than the water level of the reservoir and put the end of the 1/2 inch tube an inch or so down into a 1 inch tube that runs down to your sump. Make sure that there is an air gap around the 1/2 tube so it can’t start to siphon.

It’s not that much higher. I would think that the maximum water level of the container is maybe two feet higher than the sump?

So I guess the best thing to do would be to cut the plumbing and put a tall bend in it?

BrettDS · 03/23/2018, 02:29 PM

It’s more than just running the plumbing up... air needs to be able to get in at the high point. Obviously you also need to make sure that water can’t get out where the air gets in, so that’s why I suggested running a smaller tube into a larger tube, but if you can figure out another way to run the plumbing up and allow air to enter at the high point then that would work too.

Bent · 03/23/2018, 03:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BrettDS

It’s more than just running the plumbing up... air needs to be able to get in at the high point. Obviously you also need to make sure that water can’t get out where the air gets in, so that’s why I suggested running a smaller tube into a larger tube, but if you can figure out another way to run the plumbing up and allow air to enter at the high point then that would work too.

I wonder why the way I have it set up now isn’t working?

That is the current high point.

BrettDS · 03/23/2018, 04:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bent

I wonder why the way I have it set up now isn’t working?

That is the current high point.

But the water level can be higher than that, right? You need the high point to be above the water line.

Bent · 03/23/2018, 04:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BrettDS

But the water level can be higher than that, right? You need the high point to be above the water line.

The exit for the air inlet tube is higher than the water line...

BrettDS · 03/23/2018, 04:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bent

The exit for the air inlet tube is higher than the water line...

It will only be able to suck air in to a tube below the water line like that if the water is moving fast enough to create a Venturi. And it will only stop the siphon if it can suck enough air in through the tube. Just a small amount of air may not be enough to stop it.

Bent · 03/23/2018, 04:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BrettDS

It will only be able to suck air in to a tube below the water line like that if the water is moving fast enough to create a Venturi. And it will only stop the siphon if it can suck enough air in through the tube. Just a small amount of air may not be enough to stop it.

Ahhhhhh that makes sense.

So would it maybe fix it if I took the black elbow off that’s in the pic, ran more PVC so that it was higher than the water line and then hooked the pump up to that?

Something like the crappy finger painting I attached?

BrettDS · 03/23/2018, 05:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bent

Ahhhhhh that makes sense.

So would it maybe fix it if I took the black elbow off that’s in the pic, ran more PVC so that it was higher than the water line and then hooked the pump up to that?

Something like the crappy finger painting I attached?

Yes, that would work, but as I said above, there would need to be an opening so that air could get in at the highest part to stop the siphon and you would need to make sure that water wasn’t able to get out the air hole. If there is a long plumbing run after that high point then the pressure needed to push water down the pipe would be enough to also push it out the air hole.

That’s why I suggested putting the air gap toward the end of the run. The water can come out of the small tube and into a larger tube right above the sump and gravity will just take it the rest of the way down.

Bent · 03/24/2018, 10:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BrettDS

Yes, that would work, but as I said above, there would need to be an opening so that air could get in at the highest part to stop the siphon and you would need to make sure that water wasn’t able to get out the air hole. If there is a long plumbing run after that high point then the pressure needed to push water down the pipe would be enough to also push it out the air hole.

That’s why I suggested putting the air gap toward the end of the run. The water can come out of the small tube and into a larger tube right above the sump and gravity will just take it the rest of the way down.

Alright roger that, that’s what I’ll do.

Thanks for all the help btw

Oh and if I wanted to increase the amount of water drained out of the sump I would just make the osc 000:00/000:15/000:45 right?

Edit:

I’m also kind of concerned about the ATO pump code.

ATO_Pump output code:

Fallback OFF
Set OFF
If ATO_NL CLOSED Then ON
If Time 11:46 to 11:56 Then OFF
If Time 11:57 to 11:59 Then ON
If SumpHi CLOSED Then OFF
If Time 12:00 to 12:01 Then OFF
Defer 002:00 Then ON
Min Time 010:00 Then OFF
____________________________

Will the line in red ignore the ATO_NL float status and just pump freshwater into the sump for two minutes? If not why?

BrettDS · 03/24/2018, 06:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bent

Oh and if I wanted to increase the amount of water drained out of the sump I would just make the osc 000:00/000:15/000:45 right?

That’s correct. That would run the pump for 15 seconds instead of 10 seconds.

Quote:

ATO_Pump output code:

Fallback OFF
Set OFF
If ATO_NL CLOSED Then ON
If Time 11:46 to 11:56 Then OFF
If Time 11:57 to 11:59 Then ON
If SumpHi CLOSED Then OFF
If Time 12:00 to 12:01 Then OFF
Defer 002:00 Then ON
Min Time 010:00 Then OFF
____________________________

Will the line in red ignore the ATO_NL float status and just pump freshwater into the sump for two minutes? If not why?

Yes, it will run the freshwater pump for one minute (because of the defer) or until the sumphi float switch is closed, but looking over this thread it seems like that’s not correct... you want it to stop once ATO_NL is open. If that’s the case you should modify the code as follows:

Fallback OFF
Set OFF
If ATO_NL CLOSED Then ON
If Time 11:46 to 11:56 Then OFF
If Time 11:57 to 11:59 Then ON
If ATO_NL OPEN Then OFF
If SumpHi CLOSED Then OFF
If Time 12:00 to 12:01 Then OFF
Defer 002:00 Then ON
Min Time 010:00 Then OFF

Bent · 03/24/2018, 08:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BrettDS

That’s correct. That would run the pump for 15 seconds instead of 10 seconds.

Yes, it will run the freshwater pump for one minute (because of the defer) or until the sumphi float switch is closed, but looking over this thread it seems like that’s not correct... you want it to stop once ATO_NL is open. If that’s the case you should modify the code as follows:

Fallback OFF
Set OFF
If ATO_NL CLOSED Then ON
If Time 11:46 to 11:56 Then OFF
If Time 11:57 to 11:59 Then ON
If ATO_NL OPEN Then OFF
If SumpHi CLOSED Then OFF
If Time 12:00 to 12:01 Then OFF
Defer 002:00 Then ON
Min Time 010:00 Then OFF

So educate me.

So the way the code is now, even if the ATO_NL is closed the freshwater pump will still pump water into the sump for one minute?

It looks like you are changing the code to basically ignore the background set off, correct? How does that make it operate any different?

Edit:
WAIT! I think your learning me here.

It’s because you put the “If Ato_NL open then off” further down the code right!

BrettDS · 03/24/2018, 08:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bent

So educate me.

So the way the code is now, even if the ATO_NL is closed the freshwater pump will still pump water into the sump for one minute?

The if time command will tell it to turn on from 11:57:00 to 11:59:59, unless it’s overridden by a command below. However, the defer command tells it that it must remain in an ‘on’ condition for two minutes until it will actually turn the outlet on. So in that case, from 11:57:00 to 11:59:00 it will still be off because of the defer command. It will turn on at 11:59:01 and the pump will run until 11:59:59. However, it can be overridden by a lower command. So if sumphi becomes closed during the one minute that it’s running then it will stop running.

With the modification I added then if ATO_NL becomes open during that minute that it’s running then that will stop the pump as well.

Bent · 03/24/2018, 08:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BrettDS

The if time command will tell it to turn on from 11:57:00 to 11:59:59, unless it’s overridden by a command below. However, the defer command tells it that it must remain in an ‘on’ condition for two minutes until it will actually turn the outlet on. So in that case, from 11:57:00 to 11:59:00 it will still be off because of the defer command. It will turn on at 11:59:01 and the pump will run until 11:59:59. However, it can be overridden by a lower command. So if sumphi becomes closed during the one minute that it’s running then it will stop running.

With the modification I added then if ATO_NL becomes open during that minute that it’s running then that will stop the pump as well.

And that’s because that line is now below the ato “on” time command right?

BrettDS · 03/24/2018, 09:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bent

And that’s because that line is now below the ato “on” time command right?

Right. Lower commands take priority

Bent · 03/25/2018, 06:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BrettDS

Right. Lower commands take priority

Sweeet. I’m learning.

Bent · 03/30/2018, 10:25 AM

Alright for some reason this didn’t work.

When the switch turned off in the NSW container the pump stopped and didn’t fill the sump.

Any ideas as to why?

BrettDS · 03/30/2018, 10:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bent

Alright for some reason this didn’t work.

When the switch turned off in the NSW container the pump stopped and didn’t fill the sump.

Any ideas as to why?

So just to be clear, the NSW reservoir emptied and the low level switch turned on and the pump stopped immediately?

Post a copy of the program for the fill pump as I know we’ve gone through a few iterations, so it would be good to see exactly what you have in there now.

rjjr1963 · 03/30/2018, 01:48 PM

Is there a good resource to learn Apex code and syntax?

BrettDS · 03/30/2018, 03:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rjjr1963

Is there a good resource to learn Apex code and syntax?

The apex comprehensive reference manual is a good place to start. Particularly chapters 4, 5, and 6. It’s available here...

https://www.neptunesystems.com/downl...nce_Manual.pdf

It was written for the classic apex, but the language is the same, so all of the programming details apply to the new apex.

It’s really a pretty simple (and unfortunately somewhat restrictive) language, so if your familiar with scripting and programming you should pick it up pretty quickly. There are ways to work around a lot of the limitations as well, so it’s not as restrictive as it first seems.

Bent · 03/30/2018, 04:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BrettDS

So just to be clear, the NSW reservoir emptied and the low level switch turned on and the pump stopped immediately?

Post a copy of the program for the fill pump as I know we’ve gone through a few iterations, so it would be good to see exactly what you have in there now.

Yep the NSW container emptied, the low level switch closed, the sump fill pump stopped.

Fill pump program

Fallback OFF
Set OFF
If Time 12:01 to 12:02 Then ON
If ATO_NL OPEN Then OFF
If SumpHi CLOSED Then OFF
If NSW_Lo CLOSED Then OFF
If Output NSW_E_Delay = ON Then OFF

NSW e delay program
Fallback OFF
Set OFF
If NSW_Lo CLOSED Then ON
Defer 001:00 Then ON

03/18/2018, 12:22 PM	#27
homer1475 Registered Member Join Date: Mar 2015 Location: Upstate NY Posts: 5,313	Wow even after having my apex for 4 years and having some pretty complex code, Even I learned something! Thanks BrettDS!! __________________ 80G SCA Build: http://reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2560256 Originally posted by der_wille_zur_macht: "He's just taking his lunch to work"

03/22/2018, 09:20 PM	#28
Bent I got nothin' Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: The anals Posts: 6,420	Ok I had an issue with this today. The sump level was pretty high and I’m not sure the drain actually came on. I’m going to copy our exactly as I have it now maybe I typed something incorrctly ____________________________ Inputs: SumpHi SumpLo NSW_Lo (new salt water container almost empty) ATO_NL (normal sump water level) ____________________ Outputs: (all default open) NSW_E_Delay (virtual outlet) Sump_Fill Sump_Drain ATO_Pump __________________________ ATO_Pump output code: Fallback OFF Set OFF If ATO_NL CLOSED Then ON If Time 11:46 to 11:56 Then OFF If Time 11:57 to 11:59 Then ON If SumpHi CLOSED Then OFF If Time 12:00 to 12:01 Then OFF Defer 002:00 Then ON Min Time 010:00 Then OFF ____________________________________ Sump_Drain output code: Fallback OFF Set OFF OSC 000:00/000:10/000:50 Then ON If Time 12:01 to 11:59 Then OFF If NSW_Lo CLOSED Then OFF If SumpLo CLOSED Then OFF If Output ATO_Pump = ON Then OFF ______________________________________ Sump_Fill output code: Fallback OFF Set OFF If Time 12:01 to 12:02 Then ON If ATO_NL OPEN Then OFF If SumpHi CLOSED Then OFF If NSW_Lo CLOSED Then OFF If Output ATO_Pump = ON Then OFF If Output NSW_E_Delay = ON Then OFF _______________________________________ NSW_E_Delay output code: (Virtual Outlet) Fallback OFF Set OFF If NSW_Lo CLOSED Then ON Defer 001:00 Then ON ___________________________________ That’s everything as it is now. See anything that could be the culprit? __________________ Quitters never lose. [QUOTE=CStrickland]Who gets mad at a starfish?[/QUOTE] Current Tank Info: 75g DT, 30G refugium, 10g chaeto tank, 50g stock tank basement sump

03/30/2018, 10:25 AM	#46
Bent I got nothin' Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: The anals Posts: 6,420	Alright for some reason this didn’t work. When the switch turned off in the NSW container the pump stopped and didn’t fill the sump. Any ideas as to why? __________________ Quitters never lose. [QUOTE=CStrickland]Who gets mad at a starfish?[/QUOTE] Current Tank Info: 75g DT, 30G refugium, 10g chaeto tank, 50g stock tank basement sump

03/30/2018, 01:48 PM	#48
rjjr1963 Registered Member Join Date: Dec 2015 Location: Nebraska/Missouri Posts: 770	Is there a good resource to learn Apex code and syntax? __________________ 72x24x16 115 gallon under construction Current Tank Info: 40 gallon reef

03/22/2018, 11:50 PM	#30
BrettDS Registered Member Join Date: Feb 2012 Location: Orlando Posts: 1,109	The easiest thing to do is to make sure the exit of the fill tube is higher than the water level in the reservoir. That way it can never start to siphon. Depending on the heights of the water in the sump and the reservoir this may be easier said than done. If the reservoir is considerably higher than the sump one option would be to make the end of the fill tube higher than the sump, but have it run into a larger tube to take the water down into the sump. So if you’re using 1/2 inch tube for your fill tube, make sure that the end of the 1/2 inch tube is higher than the water level of the reservoir and put the end of the 1/2 inch tube an inch or so down into a 1 inch tube that runs down to your sump. Make sure that there is an air gap around the 1/2 tube so it can’t start to siphon.

03/23/2018, 02:29 PM	#32
BrettDS Registered Member Join Date: Feb 2012 Location: Orlando Posts: 1,109	It’s more than just running the plumbing up... air needs to be able to get in at the high point. Obviously you also need to make sure that water can’t get out where the air gets in, so that’s why I suggested running a smaller tube into a larger tube, but if you can figure out another way to run the plumbing up and allow air to enter at the high point then that would work too.