Guess the Phosphate level

[Allmost]

Originally Posted by sahin

0.03ppm?

oh, what does that limit ?

calcification ? if so, the limit for calcification is much much higher.

0.03 is the po4 in wild reefs I think.

[dirtycontour]

Over .3 ?!?!
How can this be?!?!

[Thales]

Originally Posted by dvanacker

Is this your tank?

Yep

[Jeremy B.]

Looks great, Rich! I'm anxious as well to know what the level is.

[Drae]

Whatever the po4 is, it isn't keeping the color or growth down at all it seems. That tank is thriving.

[Thales]

Originally Posted by Thales

I'm having fun with this, and I would like to have fun at RC again, so please allow me this.
You should be skeptical - I am so happy you are!
The next Skeptical Reefkeeping article is about Testing Kits, Chasing Numbers, and Phosphate, will answer most questions and should be published this soon.

I got a couple pm's about Skeptical Reefkeeping so I thought I would share the answer - the ongoing series is available on www.Reefsmagazine.com and on my site http://packedhead.net/category/skeptical-reefkeeping/

Please let me know if these links are not ok to post on RC. Thanks!

[Thales]

Originally Posted by dirtycontour

Over .3 ?!?!
How can this be?!?!

What do people think is supposed to happen at levels over .3?

[sahin]

Originally Posted by Thales

What do people think is supposed to happen at levels over .3?

Conventional thinking is that a PO4 level above 0.03ppm causes browning of SPS corals... So 0.3ppm is 10 times higher and therefore we would assume SPS to be very brown in appearance and nuisance algae growing all over the tank...

[dirtycontour]

Originally Posted by Thales

What do people think is supposed to happen at levels over .3?

Growth of nuisance algae, inhibition of calcification?

[sahin]

Since you wont disclose the actual PO4 level now, would it be possible to at least post a few TOP DOWN shots of the SPS corals to see just how colourful your SPS corals are?

Later on when you disclose the actual figure the discussion can be quite good.

[Whisperer]

Originally Posted by Thales

What do people think is supposed to happen at levels over .3?

People think it promotes growth of nuisance algae. Honestly, I no longer subscribe to that. I no longer check my phosphate level. I have been using well water for months now, other than initial diatom bloom (gone now), I don't see any ill effects on algae bloom nor untoward coral response. I know this is going to cause an uproar. BTW, I still have chaetomorpha in my sump.

[Dukester]

Originally Posted by Whisperer

People think it promotes growth of nuisance algae. Honestly, I no longer subscribe to that. I no longer check my phosphate level. I have been using well water for months now, other than initial diatom bloom (gone now), I don't see any ill effects on algae bloom nor untoward coral response. I know this is going to cause an uproar. BTW, I still have chaetomorpha in my sump.

thats all fine and well to say.. but since you dont check your P04 levels they could just as easily be .003 as they are .1 , Without a known value your specific statements on how you dont see any ill effects really means nothing.

[Whisperer]

Dukester, does well water mean anything? DO you know the composition of well water in Florida? Phosphates for fertilizer used to be mined here.

[sahin]

Originally Posted by Dukester

thats all fine and well to say.. but since you dont check your P04 levels they could just as easily be .003 as they are .1 , Without a known value your specific statements on how you dont see any ill effects really means nothing.

Originally Posted by Whisperer

Dukester, does well water mean anything? DO you know the composition of well water in Florida? Phosphates for fertilizer used to be mined here.

I think Dukester has a point there. You do utilise chaetomorpha so perhaps this is picking up a good amount of the PO4...It would actually be interesting to know what your PO4 is, and just how colourful your SPS are.

[criticalencore]

My po4 is around .63 with no nuisance algae although I do run an ATS and have calupera in a refugium. I have even maxed my Hanna at a flashing 2.5 po4 and still had no algae in the display. .

[dvanacker]

Originally Posted by Thales

What do people think is supposed to happen at levels over .3?

You have a flare for the dramatic... you obviously know what people expect and even experience with high phosphate levels.

Is this thread ever going to materialize into a real discussion?

[Dukester]

Originally Posted by Thales

What do people think is supposed to happen at levels over .3?

I feel like this whole thread is a trick question.. Obviously everyone is aware of the article Phosphate and the Reef Aquarium and the numerous studies referenced in it... so when we know that an extended elevation of P04 to a mere .15PPM inhibited growth around 50% compared to the normal reef levels in one study and similar results were found in numerous other studies.. My question to the OP is .. do you not think that growth in your reef tank would increase if you lowered your p04 levels back down closer to what would normally be seen in the natural environment?

[Allmost]

I think the point he is trying to make is who cares what po4 tests at, we dont want to make the test kits happy, we want to make corals and our eyes happy

but Duk. has a good point, wouldnt it be even better with lower po4 ? is your reef as good as it possibly can be ?

[Fail_sh3d]

Originally Posted by Dukester

I feel like this whole thread is a trick question.. Obviously everyone is aware of the article Phosphate and the Reef Aquarium and the numerous studies referenced in it... so when we know that an extended elevation of P04 to a mere .15PPM inhibited growth around 50% compared to the normal reef levels in one study and similar results were found in numerous other studies.. My question to the OP is .. do you not think that growth in your reef tank would increase if you lowered your p04 levels back down closer to what would normally be seen in the natural environment?

I agree.

Where are the growth pics? This thread indicates great colors with a (possibly) higher than generally accepted P04 levels, but doesn't show progression of growth in these corals.

I'd like to see how long it took and how much growth over time with pics.

[Koralcrazy]

I have an issue....his join date is earlier than anyone else who is posting in this thread....I feel like I am forced to believe him

Anyone else have this issue....lol, if I get advice from someone who has only been a member since 2011, I kind of take it with a grain of salt, but if someone from 2001 is saying something, then I better believe it!

Just a weird issue I have...I know join date is not proxy for years of experience, but can't help but always look....

I'm with Sahin, lets see some top down pics, perhaps a video?

[Koralcrazy]

Also - could you share the growth rate of your chaeto and the amount you have? Heck, how about a sump shot?

[sirreal63]

Originally Posted by Fail_sh3d

I agree.

Where are the growth pics? This thread indicates great colors with a (possibly) higher than generally accepted P04 levels, but doesn't show progression of growth in these corals.

I'd like to see how long it took and how much growth over time with pics.

Look here...
http://packedhead.net/2011/home-tank-over-time/

Originally Posted by Koralcrazy

I have an issue....his join date is earlier than anyone else who is posting in this thread....I feel like I am forced to believe him

Anyone else have this issue....lol, if I get advice from someone who has only been a member since 2011, I kind of take it with a grain of salt, but if someone from 2001 is saying something, then I better believe it!

Just a weird issue I have...I know join date is not proxy for years of experience, but can't help but always look....

I'm with Sahin, lets see some top down pics, perhaps a video?

I believe he has been in this hobby for about 25+ years and was one the many I paid attention to when I began this hobby. Unfortunately most that are still in the hobby got tired of people who didn't understand telling them their tank would suffer because of their methods and they don't bother trying to educate people any longer. This is a sad thing because the most experienced people who have the most to offer are put off by the attitudes of those who need their experience the most.

I am surprised to see people scratching their heads here, this isn't new and there are plenty of examples of higher nutrient tanks thriving.

Big E's tank...po4 was tested at about .34-.37 and there is no question about the health, growth and color of his Acro's.
http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/sh....php?t=2197142


I don't want to detract from this thread but remember corals are highly adaptive creatures, in spite of what the books have led you to believe. The simple proof of that is the variability in everyone's tank and methods and the successes with each method. There is no cut and dried formula for success. I have seen more pale and sickly corals in the past few years then I ever did when I began keeping SPS.

[Fail_sh3d]

Originally Posted by sirreal63

Look here...
http://packedhead.net/2011/home-tank-over-time/



I believe he has been in this hobby for about 25+ years and was one the many I paid attention to when I began this hobby. Unfortunately most that are still in the hobby got tired of people who didn't understand telling them their tank would suffer because of their methods and they don't bother trying to educate people any longer. This is a sad thing because the most experienced people who have the most to offer are put off by the attitudes of those who need their experience the most.

I am surprised to see people scratching their heads here, this isn't new and there are plenty of examples of higher nutrient tanks thriving.

Big E's tank...po4 was tested at about .34-.37 and there is no question about the health, growth and color of his Acro's.
http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/sh....php?t=2197142


I don't want to detract from this thread but remember corals are highly adaptive creatures, in spite of what the books have led you to believe. The simple proof of that is the variability in everyone's tank and methods and the successes with each method. There is no cut and dried formula for success. I have seen more pale and sickly corals in the past few years then I ever did when I began keeping SPS.

Thanks, sirreal. No need for ellipsis. The link I originally clicked was just to the home page. My apologies.

I appreciate it and I'm not doubting his reef keeping or knowledge.

Do those bi-annual FTS indicated P04 over the years? Or are there p04 measurements that coincide with said FTS?

[Dukester]

Originally Posted by sirreal63

Big E's tank...po4 was tested at about .34-.37 and there is no question about the health, growth and color of his Acro's.
http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/sh....php?t=2197142

just 2 weeks ago Ed stated " As long as I'm under .10 phosphates I'm good, I don't chase each tenth of a point."

[Thales]

http://www.advancedaquarist.com/blog...opora-muricata