Coral Tank from Canada (1350gal Display Tank)

[KingNeptunesBou]

Originally Posted by mr.wilson

Okay now I feel stupid. I tried everything but the stamp of the mountains button to get that pic up, and yes someone had to PM me to tell me how

Mr. Wilson, not to sidetrack too much from your thread but what application are you using to layout your diagrams? It looks awesome!

[1933Ford]

QUOTE=mr.wilson Running two skimmers is always a fun exercise. May the best skimmer win, but having two gives you a back-up plan. If one is a little off, the other should pick up the slack. I also feel two small skimmers are more efficient than one big one. It's a bubble stability thing.

You should have no problem drawing air through the ozonizer with the skimmer air intake, but the added friction may diminish the total air draw somewhat. Ozone also decreases the stability of skimmer bubbles, but you make up for it with the high oxidization rate of o3 (ozone). This is why you are yielding a more yellow and less viscous (thick) skimmate. Having one skimmer with ozone and one without will be a distinct benefit for you. Each skimmer has its specialty.

Yes ORP is a magic number that isn't always consistent with success or lack there of. Technically it is the waters ability to oxidize organics. It's kind of like our bodies cardiovascular fitness. A high ORP 350-400 will help biological filtration and speed the rate of assimilation of "bad stuff" (organic waste).

I would certainly try an air pump and air drier. Buy an oversized drier or two of them to aid in maintenance. There are reports of nitric acid forming in ozonizers that process damp air, but I don't fully comprehend the repercussions myself.

As ozone kills microorganisms and breaks down organic matter it is easily picked up in the skimmer bubbles as these molecules are strongly hydrophobic (attracted to air & repelled by water). [/QUOTE]


I've been reading this forum for a few years and this build from the beginning and thought that I would add my 2 cents worth(that's being generous). I agree with Mr W. about ozone. My reef has been up and running for 21 years and I've been using ozone since day one. I've never had a disease outbreak in it. Naturally I've lost fish and corals over the years but never had anything spread. It's not a "fix all" "cure all" thing, normal upkeep and maintenance must be done. I have a pair of Perc clowns that are 17+ years old and still doing well has to say something. They stopped spawning several years ago(suppose I could get a vet prescribe some little blue pills for them?).
As far as drying the air goes I've found that is very important. I've used several brands of ozonizers and without dry air they do get corroded and such, being in a humid environment. Years ago I saw a chart on percent of O3 lost due to moist air and it was high. I stopped using the blue indicating silica gel due to Cobalt Chloride concerns. Not sure how valid the problem is but I opted for the orange indicating ones that don't contain Cobalt Chloride. Since my tank is only 100 gallons(Peter's sump is bigger) my maintenance is not that great so I end up drying the desiccant about once a week(sometimes a little more when the humidity is up). If I were Peter I would look into a powered dryer. Ozotech makes an IQ 40 model that has 2 beds of resin so while one is drying the other is in use. I'm sure there are others out there.
I presently run 3 skimmers(be nice, I'm old). I use an old Red Sea Berlin skimmer for my ozone. In years past I have used a DIY chamber(never worked like I wanted) and air driven Sanders skimmers for ozone(it does "eat" limewood air stones). I have a remote refugium and a separate remote DSB and have a old Tunze 230 skimmer in there(bought it new about 15 years ago). It doesn't do a lot but I figured it can't hurt. The main skimmer is a Tunze 9410 and that's the "real" skimmer for the system. The whole mess is controlled by an old, old Sandpoint dual channel controller. Redox runs 375.
I wanted to add one more company that I have been using for years to buy equipment from. They have all sorts of laboratory and scientific gear. They seem to have no problem with small orders. Their catalog is 2600+ pages. It's http://www.coleparmer.com/ (hope that doesn't break any rules).
I must say even after 40+ years of fish keeping I have learned a few things just following this build. Mr W. and others, I do thank you.

BTW Mr W. you forgot the bug catcher on top of the BB blown rat motor.

Greg

[nineball]

Does anyone know what common household product can be used as a substitute for aluminum sulphate in the garden? She wants to turn pink hydrangeas blue.

Thanks,
Peter

[swissgaurd]

peter you can use rusty nails or spikes, also mixing pine needles into soil will turn the soil acidy which inturn will give you the blue flowers.

vic

[nineball]

Originally Posted by nuccadoc

Peter, I have noticed that you did not take down the ductwork above the tank and per Mr.Wilson's request about 1000 posts ago. Do you forsee this as being a problem with maintenance? Forgive me if you have answered these questions but what lighting have you decided to use? Also, do you plan on using ozone?

Thanks,

Scott

Scott, sorry to take so long to reply. I did not take the ductwork down as I did not mind the maintenance and in fact verified that I could easily replace it if in fact that was necessary. I did however make some architectural changes to the initial design based on some comments made by Mr. Wilson and others. I have just performed a test yesterday and the airflow will guarantee optimum performance for the lighting environment as well as preventing any heat, humidity or aromas from entering the viewing environments hosting the main display tank.

The latest strategy for the lights is to stay with the proposed original lighting configuration. The alternative lighting solution I was contemplating would have run close to $40,000 for the Phillips hybrid led solution. The folks at aquatic life have been consulted and they have assured me that the twenty five feet of double canopies will be more than adequate. My position is that I WILL end up with a complete LED solution in the future but for the time being I will use the HID fixtures and swap them out with something that I may in fact see in Orlando with Mr. Wilson in tow!

And yes I will be using ozone with the skimmer. It's actually designed for it.

Peter

[nineball]

Originally Posted by swissgaurd

peter you can use rusty nails or spikes, also mixing pine needles into soil will turn the soil acidy which inturn will give you the blue flowers.

vic

Thanks very much Vic. Do the pine needles need to be dried? Also how about steel wool?

Peter

[swissgaurd]

not sure about the steel wool,but yes the pine needles need to be dry,a trip to the north
should be no problem grabing some pine needles that have fallen off a tree,

im sure people wont mind yourself and your wife raking there front lawns.
i also found that muskie fish emulsion really makes the plant grow a little extra.
ive been spraying roses and perinnials with a mixture of fish emulsion,epsom salts, baking soda and molasses for 2 yrs now and the plants never looked so good

vic

[ksed]

Hi Peter

I had the same problem. Someone at a local garden center mentioned to remove existing soil around the plant and add 100% Peat Moss. Worked for me.
HTH.


Kevin

[dave.m]

Originally Posted by nineball

She wants to turn pink hydrangeas blue.

Not all hydrangeas will turn colour. They must be H. macrophylla or H. serrata. Turning the soil more acidic turns the flowers blue or purplish. Turning the soil more alkaline will cause them to turn pink or red.

Tell your wife she can accomplish the same thing more naturally with coffee grounds or old tea bags mulched around the base. If she's on a chemical kick, she can also use soil sulfur instead of the aluminum sulphate.

Dave.M

[nineball]

Originally Posted by swissgaurd

not sure about the steel wool,but yes the pine needles need to be dry,a trip to the north
should be no problem grabing some pine needles that have fallen off a tree,

im sure people wont mind yourself and your wife raking there front lawns.
i also found that muskie fish emulsion really makes the plant grow a little extra.
ive been spraying roses and perinnials with a mixture of fish emulsion,epsom salts, baking soda and molasses for 2 yrs now and the plants never looked so good

vic

Thanks Vic. We happen to have a very large pine tree in our back yard that would be the envy of the group of seven. So you will find Judy climbing the tree tomorrow to collect the needles.

Thanks for taking the time to answer.....

Peter

[nineball]

Originally Posted by ksed

Hi Peter

I had the same problem. Someone at a local garden center mentioned to remove existing soil around the plant and add 100% Peat Moss. Worked for me.
HTH.


Kevin

Thanks very much Kevin, we have the peat moss and will try......

Peter

[nineball]

Originally Posted by dave.m

Not all hydrangeas will turn colour. They must be H. macrophylla or H. serrata. Turning the soil more acidic turns the flowers blue or purplish. Turning the soil more alkaline will cause them to turn pink or red.

Tell your wife she can accomplish the same thing more naturally with coffee grounds or old tea bags mulched around the base. If she's on a chemical kick, she can also use soil sulfur instead of the aluminum sulphate.

Dave.M

Thanks Dave, Judy is reluctant to use sulfur as it is apparently temp specific and can leech to other plants with less than desirable results. But the coffee grounds rings a bell.........

Peter

[mr.wilson]

Originally Posted by Elliott

Mr. Wilson: on your diagram the input of the skimmer is fed by gravity while the output is fed by the skimmer pump, the input and output are in different reservoirs so they must be balanced to avoid either overflowing the input reservoir (too much input flow) or running the input reservoir dry (too much output flow)?

The drawing is a general guideline and not an absolute. The protein skimmer can be fed directly by the display tank drain line, or drawn in by the skimmer pump (be it single pump system or separate feed pump).

Regardless of the actual skimmer feed method the skimmer reservoir water level will be variable. The gravity feed of the sump is regulated by the sump return pump. Whatever enters the display must drain to the sump. If the skimmer reservoir level drops, the excess water in the rest of the sump will "flow backwards" into the skimmer reservoir. The skimmer reservoir can't run dry because the sump will always have water to fill it back up form one side of the partition or the other.

Another way of looking at it is to consider that your sump return pump moves lets say 1000 GPH, and your skimmer pump overpowers it moving 1200 GPH. That excess 200 GPH will not be pumped up to the display tank because we are limited to 1000 GPH going up. That 200 GPH will rise in the reservoir until it flows into the emptying skimmer reservoir. In summary...

- 1000 GPH overflows by gravity into the skimmer reservoir/sump.
- 1200 GPH overflows the skimmer reservoir via the protein skimmer.
- 1000 GPH returns to the display via the sump return pump.
- 200 GPH overflows from the sump's second compartment where the return pump is, to the first compartment (moving "backwards") where the skimmer is (skimmer reservoir).

If the skimmer pump on that same hypothetical system only moves 800 GPH, the following would occur...

- 1000 GPH overflows by gravity into the skimmer reservoir/sump.
- 800 GPH overflows the skimmer reservoir via the protein skimmer.
- 1000 GPH returns to the display via the sump return pump.
- 200 GPH bypasses the skimmer and overflows over the first partition (skimmer reservoir) into the second reservoir.

If you get the output of the skimmer pump and return pump exactly the same the water level in the skimmer reservoir will only pass over the partition to the second section of the sump via the protein skimmer.

[mr.wilson]

Originally Posted by ukguy

Mr Wilson, I'm presuming that the length of that emergency overflow is ratio between the volume of water between the normal and the emergency overflows, and the normal volume of the sump? its only going to come into affect if you close the control valve, but leave the return pump running, AND the float switch jams?

The drain configuration should really have two dedicated holes but I posted this configuration to show you how to solve the common problem of plumbing a tempered tank with just one drain hole. You could also use a 1.5" pipe as the siphon and a 3/4" as the emergency and to pick up the slack.

It's a similar system to Beananimal's or herbies. One siphon is enough to drain the whole load, but siphons have a tendency to vary in suction, so you set it to overload the siphon slightly to assure the siphon won't over siphon and lose prime, and the secondary drain can manage the variation is drain speed. If the siphon slows down or clogs completely, the secondary 1" line eventually becomes a siphon and drains very quickly. The smaller the line the better when it comes to starting/priming a siphon. A siphon moves water exponentially faster than a gravity drain due to water surface tension.

[mr.wilson]

Originally Posted by biecacka

mr wilson i have pillars in my tank of my rock work mostly in the center of the tank. that way in theory there is less to break up the direct flow of the tunze's
corey

You can never achieve a "real" laminar flow system in a reef tank, just as the tank can never be a "real" reef. Pillars are a smart way to do it. Just make sire they aren't spaced too evenly, become too symmetrical, or look lime clones of each other. Try to break up the height to aid in free flow and natural aesthetics.

[mr.wilson]

Originally Posted by KingNeptunesBou

Mr. Wilson, not to sidetrack too much from your thread but what application are you using to layout your diagrams? It looks awesome!

I use Adobe Illustrator, but I really want to learn a 3D program. I can shade and do a few 3D tricks with Illustrator, but it can't predict what I'm drawing. I can save symbols that I have created like the pressure gauge and use it on different filtration devices. It's all bitmap images so it can be scaled accordingly. The more drawings I do, the more spare parts (symbols) and templates I have to make new drawings.

[mr.wilson]

Originally Posted by 1933Ford

QUOTE=mr.wilson Running two skimmers is always a fun exercise. May the best skimmer win, but having two gives you a back-up plan. If one is a little off, the other should pick up the slack. I also feel two small skimmers are more efficient than one big one. It's a bubble stability thing.

You should have no problem drawing air through the ozonizer with the skimmer air intake, but the added friction may diminish the total air draw somewhat. Ozone also decreases the stability of skimmer bubbles, but you make up for it with the high oxidization rate of o3 (ozone). This is why you are yielding a more yellow and less viscous (thick) skimmate. Having one skimmer with ozone and one without will be a distinct benefit for you. Each skimmer has its specialty.

Yes ORP is a magic number that isn't always consistent with success or lack there of. Technically it is the waters ability to oxidize organics. It's kind of like our bodies cardiovascular fitness. A high ORP 350-400 will help biological filtration and speed the rate of assimilation of "bad stuff" (organic waste).

I would certainly try an air pump and air drier. Buy an oversized drier or two of them to aid in maintenance. There are reports of nitric acid forming in ozonizers that process damp air, but I don't fully comprehend the repercussions myself.

As ozone kills microorganisms and breaks down organic matter it is easily picked up in the skimmer bubbles as these molecules are strongly hydrophobic (attracted to air & repelled by water).

I've been reading this forum for a few years and this build from the beginning and thought that I would add my 2 cents worth(that's being generous). I agree with Mr W. about ozone. My reef has been up and running for 21 years and I've been using ozone since day one. I've never had a disease outbreak in it. Naturally I've lost fish and corals over the years but never had anything spread. It's not a "fix all" "cure all" thing, normal upkeep and maintenance must be done. I have a pair of Perc clowns that are 17+ years old and still doing well has to say something. They stopped spawning several years ago(suppose I could get a vet prescribe some little blue pills for them?).
As far as drying the air goes I've found that is very important. I've used several brands of ozonizers and without dry air they do get corroded and such, being in a humid environment. Years ago I saw a chart on percent of O3 lost due to moist air and it was high. I stopped using the blue indicating silica gel due to Cobalt Chloride concerns. Not sure how valid the problem is but I opted for the orange indicating ones that don't contain Cobalt Chloride. Since my tank is only 100 gallons(Peter's sump is bigger) my maintenance is not that great so I end up drying the desiccant about once a week(sometimes a little more when the humidity is up). If I were Peter I would look into a powered dryer. Ozotech makes an IQ 40 model that has 2 beds of resin so while one is drying the other is in use. I'm sure there are others out there.
I presently run 3 skimmers(be nice, I'm old). I use an old Red Sea Berlin skimmer for my ozone. In years past I have used a DIY chamber(never worked like I wanted) and air driven Sanders skimmers for ozone(it does "eat" limewood air stones). I have a remote refugium and a separate remote DSB and have a old Tunze 230 skimmer in there(bought it new about 15 years ago). It doesn't do a lot but I figured it can't hurt. The main skimmer is a Tunze 9410 and that's the "real" skimmer for the system. The whole mess is controlled by an old, old Sandpoint dual channel controller. Redox runs 375.
I wanted to add one more company that I have been using for years to buy equipment from. They have all sorts of laboratory and scientific gear. They seem to have no problem with small orders. Their catalog is 2600+ pages. It's http://www.coleparmer.com/ (hope that doesn't break any rules).
I must say even after 40+ years of fish keeping I have learned a few things just following this build. Mr W. and others, I do thank you.

BTW Mr W. you forgot the bug catcher on top of the BB blown rat motor.

Greg[/QUOTE]

If nothing else, this thread has flushed out some first time poster newbies and some first time poster seasoned pros. Thanks for the cobalt chloride tip. I didn't know that.

Calcium hydroxide, calcium chloride, and calcium oxide are all desiccants (air driers) that can be recycled as calcium buffer after they are spent.

Thanks for sharing your experience. All the scientific theory in the world can't compare to a long practical experience with a stable tank.

[mr.wilson]

Originally Posted by swissgaurd

peter you can use rusty nails or spikes, also mixing pine needles into soil will turn the soil acidy which inturn will give you the blue flowers.

vic

Wow, you really are a jack of all trades Vic.

[mr.wilson]

Originally Posted by swissgaurd

not sure about the steel wool,but yes the pine needles need to be dry,a trip to the north
should be no problem grabing some pine needles that have fallen off a tree,

im sure people wont mind yourself and your wife raking there front lawns.
i also found that muskie fish emulsion really makes the plant grow a little extra.
ive been spraying roses and perinnials with a mixture of fish emulsion,epsom salts, baking soda and molasses for 2 yrs now and the plants never looked so good

vic

Just make sure it's Wilson Muskie fertilizer http://www.rona.ca/shop/~fertilizer-...sponsible_shop

[swissgaurd]

Originally Posted by mr.wilson

Just make sure it's Wilson Muskie fertilizer http://www.rona.ca/shop/~fertilizer-...sponsible_shop

thanks shawn,that stuffs getting hard to find

[nineball]

Originally Posted by mr.wilson

Just make sure it's Wilson Muskie fertilizer http://www.rona.ca/shop/~fertilizer-...sponsible_shop

Are you serious..............really.................Naaaaaa, no way. But that was good, very, very good Mr. Wilson.

Peter

Ps. Look after our group while I try and knock out pine needles with this little white ball. It's my last outing before all you know what breaks loose on Monday.

[swissgaurd]

Originally Posted by mr.wilson

Wow, you really are a jack of all trades Vic.

streetsville has that effect on people.
S.S.S. was voted #1 this year they had highest grade average. lol

[swissgaurd]

peter
your electrical panel looks great,if you ever want to install a PLC with a touch screen witch can have a product flow chart,i have a programer

vic

[nineball]

One last question......

What size masonry bit do I need for the live rock and how deep does the impression need to be? Also, where do I get acrylic rods?

Peter

[nineball]

Originally Posted by swissgaurd

peter
your electrical panel looks great,if you ever want to install a PLC with a touch screen witch can have a product flow chart,i have a programer

vic

Thanks Vic , I will check back after my duel with the pine tree!!!

Peter