Coral Tank from Canada (1350gal Display Tank) - Page 52

nineball · 04/12/2010, 09:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chago09

I appreciate your answer but I was asking more for the average reefer, with a 100 - 180 gallon tank. I guess my main question is, if I reaquascape my tank. I will RTHOOI, then aquascape without water for lets say a solid 3-4 hours. Then I will readd about 70% old water and 30% new. Would I be able to readd all corals, fish etc that same day?

sorry for stealing the thread just needed to know. I'm sure everyone else is just drooling at the pics and not even reading my jibber jabber.

We are all reading your jibber jabber chago and your question is appropriate. Remember, not everything is geared to 1000+ gal tanks. I will have 32 tanks in the fish room at last count and they will be considerably smaller and certainly relevant to this discussion.

Peter

nineball · 04/12/2010, 10:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by massman

Peter,
I don't think Shawn was suggesting a ban on chillers, however the prophylactic practice of using the chillers to chill the water down to 24-25 degrees when it can run comfortably at 28 degrees.

(I can't get my head around Fahrenheit, sorry, temps in Centigrade).

Obviously chillers need to be utilised to avoid catastrophe, however, people get too hung up on exact numbers.

On Arlington reef on the GBR (where we do a lot of collecting) water temps swing from 29-30 degrees in summer to 22-23 in winter.
Surface temps of 32 are not uncommon either.
Ever been diving and started sweating? Welcome to my world. We need to cool off after 3 hours chasing fish!

Been there, done that. This whole thing started because of my experience on the GBR and the Sydney aquarium. My experience had the air at 30....the water at 30 and not a cloud in the air.......for a Canadian/Australian, paradise!!!

I know Shawn wouldn't ban chillers..........besides he can't help it.....he's Canadian.

Peter

john baker · 04/12/2010, 11:38 PM

Peter have you given thought to letting your tank mature before putting live stock in. I mean maturing as in leaving it for at least 3 months and letting all the small cycles that most tanks go through, small algae blooms and the like, I will be leaving my new tank for at least 6 months. I will try to dig up some great suggestions from very knowledgeable people.

nineball · 04/13/2010, 08:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by john baker

Peter have you given thought to letting your tank mature before putting live stock in. I mean maturing as in leaving it for at least 3 months and letting all the small cycles that most tanks go through, small algae blooms and the like, I will be leaving my new tank for at least 6 months. I will try to dig up some great suggestions from very knowledgeable people.

Yes I have and I am tempted to allow 'at least' three months to stabilize before adding live stock. I also want to study the currents very carefully to ensure best placement under ideal conditions for the coral.

I have adjusted my plumbing architecture for the DT by doubling the initial CL setup to two complete systems with chillers, UV and canisters for redundancy and increased water flow. I have also adjusted the open system to provide better flow and organic filtration. more on this later.

for now it is all about live rock......

Peter

Chago09 · 04/13/2010, 07:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by nineball

Been there, done that. This whole thing started because of my experience on the GBR and the Sydney aquarium. My experience had the air at 30....the water at 30 and not a cloud in the air.......for a Canadian/Australian, paradise!!!

I know Shawn wouldn't ban chillers..........besides he can't help it.....he's Canadian.

Peter

:drool: GBR :drool: I would love to go, but just can't seem to get on a plane for 24 hours. I'll probably do Hawaii before Australia

Aquarist007 · 04/13/2010, 07:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chago09

I appreciate your answer but I was asking more for the average reefer, with a 100 - 180 gallon tank. I guess my main question is, if I reaquascape my tank. I will RTHOOI, then aquascape without water for lets say a solid 3-4 hours. Then I will readd about 70% old water and 30% new. Would I be able to readd all corals, fish etc that same day?

sorry for stealing the thread just needed to know. I'm sure everyone else is just drooling at the pics and not even reading my jibber jabber.

I am concerned with the rock being out of the water for 4 hours. There could be some die back on the bacteria
If you were to keep the live rock wet then you could transfer everything back the same day assuming the corals are and fish are going to be in the old water with heat and aeration.

spiderphil360 · 04/13/2010, 07:56 PM

Really ! It's unreal !!!! Great details ! I will seek this post every week !!! I am impacient to see more pictures (sorry my english is bad !)

mr.wilson · 04/13/2010, 08:26 PM

Here are a few notes on climate control...

First of all the reports that reef tanks thrive at 82F are absolutely true. I aim for 80F because it is the easiest value to maintain without using any additional resources/energy (heaters & chillers). Once you plug in all of your equipment, the tank will level off to about 79-80F. It would require the use of one or likely more heaters to maintain 82F, so I go with the flow and settle with an easily manageable 80F. If you have a chiller, it should be set to come on at 84F as basically a fail-safe. Heaters should bet set to come on at 79F to maintain consistency. If you set your system operating level to 82F, it leaves a little less room for temperature climbs. A target temp of 80F leaves room in both directions for error.

For a large system like Peter's, I would use an inline titanium heater run on the main controller. Sump heaters tend to degrade due to salt exposure in the seals and wiring. They also take a bit of a beating during water changes and servicing as they are left on while exposed to air. I use a piece of styrofoam to make a float for the top of the heater so it can float in the sump, keeping the sensitive parts dry (suction cups don't last long in salt water). The heater(s) should be located in a part of the sump where the water level is constant. The styrofoam floats will allow the heater to follow the water level, should it fluctuate. I would focus my attention on climate control of the ambient room temp with air conditioning or a furnace/boiler, and save aquarium devices in-line or in the sump for fine tuning.

While I would never talk anyone out of a fail-safe device, you have to remember that everything you plumb into your system could potentially leak, and everything you plug in could potentially cause stray current or shock/fire hazard. I don't use chillers as a general rule. It's part of the K.I.S.S. (keep it simple stupid) or "less is more" approach.

The factors that influence system temperature are as follows...

1) Ambient room temperature: North American homes are warm in the winter and cool in the summer, thanks to our desire for convenience and comfort and with a little help from huge utility bills

As a matter of fact, many homes are warmer in the winter than they are in the summer, and cooler in the summer than in the winter. Typical ambient room temperature is somewhere around 72F (for the record, we use metric in Canada).

Working with 72F, we can assume that still water will reach equilibrium with that temperature. Once you start moving the water it has more contact with the surface where the temperature reaches equilibrium. A cooling effect starts when surface water evaporates and takes with it heat. Evaporative cooling is a very important process that we will discuss later.

2) Aquarium location: This factor is directly related to the ambient room temperature covered above. An aquarium located in a basement, or with a sump in the basement or garage will run cooler than an aquarium in an upper floor of a house. Even the position of the tank with relation to the floor makes a difference. While I operated a tropical fish wholesale warehouse, I found that the three levels of tanks showed different temperatures. The freshwater tanks where not on an open system, just air-driven sponge filters. I heated the warehouse to 80F, but the bottom tanks 1' off of the ground were 74F, the middle row 3' off of the ground were 76F, and the top row 5' off of the ground were 78F. Peter's radiant floor heating will eliminate this heat gradient issue. Placing the sump directly on a concrete floor will offer cooling.

3) System volume: Having a large sump is a cheap and easy way to improve thermal dynamics if you have the space. The extra system volume will also improve water quality, as the saying goes "the only solution to pollution is dilution". The best solution is actually filtration, rather than sweeping the problem under the rug, but it doesn't rhyme so I doubt it will ever catch on

Saltwater has greater density than freshwater, so it holds its temperature longer. Large tanks (over 200 gallons) are particularly stable with little or no fluctuation caused by day/night ambient room temperature shifts. In other words, the room may be cooler at night, but the tank will stabilize at a compromise temp somewhere between the day & night temp. The large thermal mass of a big tank makes quick temperature changes up or down more difficult, but nature doesn't like change, so overall the thermal mass is a good thing for stability. Remember that bleaching incidents on natural coral reefs has been noted after only 2F temperature increases. This doesn't mean a 2F increase in temperature will bleach (expelling symbiotic algae/zooxanthellae) or kill corals, but it does underscore the necessity for stability.

4) Heat transfer: Every electrical device, including chillers add heat to aquariums. Add a few degrees for pumps, a few more for UV sterilizers and a lot more for lighting and your cooler than room temp tank is suddenly 10F hotter. Some of this heat is unavoidable, but most of it can be at least minimized. Directing a 12" circulation fan perpendicular toward the display or sump surface will drop the temp 5-9F. The evaporative cooling effect will tax your top-off system a little more so make sure you can keep up with the demand. A second fan can be used to blow across the surface of the water, pushing radiant heat from the light away from the water. Raising or lowering the lights will also influence heat transfer.

Venting the cabinet or filter room is an often overlooked detail of climate control. Some pumps don't employ cooling fans and subsequently run at very high temps (130-140F). This is not a problem if the heat is allowed to vent away from the system, rather than trapping it and raising the ambient temp and surface water temp. Chillers are an important device to vent as the heat exchanger will dump that heat right back into your system so it works against itself.

5) Water movement: As mentioned in the previous points, good water movement will increase the amount of water exposed to the surface for thermal and gas exchange. A good system of flow dynamics assures that water is moved from the bottom where it is cooler an d lower in dissolved oxygen to the surface where it can be oxygenated and heat can vent. Using a glass top will raise the temperature about 5F. While this is rarely desirable, it's a good practice if there is an extended power outage and your back-up power is limited. I assume Peter has a natural gas generator and UPS/deep charge marine battery backup. Certain filtration devices (gas reactor, wet/dry filter, shallow ATS etc.) work as evaporative coolers or cooling towers. In general, these evaporative efforts are directly connected to improved gas exchange as well.

6) Air quality: Fresh, dry air will be cooler than stale humid air and gas exchange is more efficient. Peter's HRV unit is more than enough to handle this issue. It also vents equipment to deal with heat transfer.

nineball · 04/13/2010, 08:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by spiderphil360

Really ! It's unreal !!!! Great details ! I will seek this post every week !!! I am impacient to see more pictures (sorry my english is bad !)

Thank you spiderphil, your english is fine and welcome to the group. I promise a lot more interesting stuff is to come but it will take a little patience. Hang in, it will be worth it................

Peter

mr.wilson · 04/13/2010, 08:47 PM

Back to the live rock exposure question... It's only monster tanks (I just had to edit "mobster tanks". Sorry Peter, please call off the hit

) like Peter's that require the live rock to be acclimated in dedicated remote vats/tanks/tubs. If your tank is under 500 gallons, you can add the rock directly to the tank dry, spraying or splashing water on it periodically as you work.

I drill some rocks and place them over a PVC pipe skeleton. I also use an aragocrete cement mix to bond the rocks. This requires a day for the cement to set. Wrapping the rocks in wet newspaper or towels is enough to keep it alive. The cement causes a temporary PH & calcium increase and the rock needs a few weeks to get its "sea legs" so the rock acclimation process is carried out in the display tank.

As a general rule, I recommend that you purchase cured rock and let the LFS go through the hassle. The added benefit is you can pick and choose your rocks according to your needs and what is available. Peter's rock is direct from the source so it requires a few more precautions. It's also hard to change 1200 gallons of water every week

In summary, as long as the rock is kept damp, it will remain healthy. As I stated in an earlier post, from a nitrification/bacterial standpoint, damp rock is healthier than wet/submerged rock during acclimation. The various toxic forms of nitrogen (ammonia, nitrite, and to a lesser extent nitrate) are not an issue if the rock isn't submerged in water. This is also true of oxygen and other gas levels.

Chago09 · 04/13/2010, 10:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mr.wilson

Back to the live rock exposure question... It's only monster tanks (I just had to edit "mobster tanks". Sorry Peter, please call off the hit

) like Peter's that require the live rock to be acclimated in dedicated remote vats/tanks/tubs. If your tank is under 500 gallons, you can add the rock directly to the tank dry, spraying or splashing water on it periodically as you work.

I drill some rocks and place them over a PVC pipe skeleton. I also use an aragocrete cement mix to bond the rocks. This requires a day for the cement to set. Wrapping the rocks in wet newspaper or towels is enough to keep it alive. The cement causes a temporary PH & calcium increase and the rock needs a few weeks to get its "sea legs" so the rock acclimation process is carried out in the display tank.

As a general rule, I recommend that you purchase cured rock and let the LFS go through the hassle. The added benefit is you can pick and choose your rocks according to your needs and what is available. Peter's rock is direct from the source so it requires a few more precautions. It's also hard to change 1200 gallons of water every week

In summary, as long as the rock is kept damp, it will remain healthy. As I stated in an earlier post, from a nitrification/bacterial standpoint, damp rock is healthier than wet/submerged rock during acclimation. The various toxic forms of nitrogen (ammonia, nitrite, and to a lesser extent nitrate) are not an issue if the rock isn't submerged in water. This is also true of oxygen and other gas levels.

ahhhhhhh makes sense, one thing that drives me nuts about one of our Canadian sites, won't name any names. Is that the guys on their constantly harp about buying cured or uncurred is no difference because just driving the rock home from the store will cause enough die off that you need your tank to cycle for 2 months anyways etc etc. Doesnt' make sense because I have moved my tank twice and upgraded once and rock was out for at least 30 mins at a time and I had no cycle issues at all.

Anyways thanks for the help and back to the show folks.

Peter if you don't keep up with pics people will send hate mail.

Aquarist007 · 04/13/2010, 10:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chago09

ahhhhhhh makes sense, one thing that drives me nuts about one of our Canadian sites, won't name any names. Is that the guys on their constantly harp about buying cured or uncurred is no difference because just driving the rock home from the store will cause enough die off that you need your tank to cycle for 2 months anyways etc etc. Doesnt' make sense because I have moved my tank twice and upgraded once and rock was out for at least 30 mins at a time and I had no cycle issues at all.

Anyways thanks for the help and back to the show folks.

Peter if you don't keep up with pics people will send hate mail.

I believe Mr. Wilson's post was regarding keeping the bacteria alive on the live rock by keeping it moist.
In your particular case with wanting a direct transfer of stock, you probably would get an ammonia spike by keeping the rock out for a day or so and then expecting no die off of bacteria.

nineball · 04/13/2010, 10:09 PM

Mr Wilson, your contribution is as usual, welcome and far more exhaustive than I deserve. You have covered a lot of territory and the team will benefit from some of the observations you have made. I will be raising some of the issues you have identified in the context of some of the information I have started to incorporate and haven't updated the thread as yet..............soon, very very soon.

Thank you sir, you are a gentleman and this forum is a beneficiary of your discipline.

Peter

Aquarist007 · 04/13/2010, 10:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by nineball

Mr Wilson, your contribution is as usual, welcome and far more exhaustive than I deserve. You have covered a lot of territory and the team will benefit from some of the observations you have made. I will be raising some of the issues you have identified in the context of some of the information I have started to incorporate and haven't updated the thread as yet..............soon, very very soon.

Thank you sir, you are a gentleman and this forum is a beneficiary of your discipline.

Peter

I agree 100 per cent.
I just added another link to the Capn's log book thread on factors that influence temperature
http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/sh...1786183&page=7

Chago09 · 04/13/2010, 10:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by capn_hylinur

I believe Mr. Wilson's post was regarding keeping the bacteria alive on the live rock by keeping it moist.
In your particular case with wanting a direct transfer of stock, you probably would get an ammonia spike by keeping the rock out for a day or so and then expecting no die off of bacteria.

ya I understand that a day or two is obvioulsy going to create die off. My intention was only for a hour, 2 hours max. My post which you quoted on driving home from store would only be a matter of minutes. Unless you live in Nunavut LOL

Well gentleman, I have had my 3 becks for the night. Off to sleep, need to work again tomorrow, hopefully will make enough to buy Peters tank off of him LOL

Antonais1391 · 04/14/2010, 01:16 AM

thx for the lesson Mr. Wilson very helpfull to all of us

been wondering about cooling heating issues lately as im getting 2 250w MH for my 75g tank (90g total system) build. also thought id mention the guys at my local petco think all water movement should be created by HOB filters LMAO. whats even more funny is i know a dunce that believed them.

stone.david · 04/14/2010, 03:42 AM

anymore pictures to share

PauChi · 04/14/2010, 07:11 AM

Oh man .... Shawn's aka mr.wilson's detailed information is overloading my 'ole brain memory ....

!!! It's an overdose of Reef 101 all over .... why didn't we have the internet like ages ago and the amount of wasted $$$ on magazines & to be told that "you can't keep reef in a 20 gallon tank" ....

!!

And lookit here ... a 21st Century massive tank in the works

!!! This has got to be one of the most educational reef thread that I've ever come across ... PERIOD!!

Thanks Peter

(oh btw ... I'm free this weekend

)

Paul

nineball · 04/14/2010, 10:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chago09

:drool: GBR :drool: I would love to go, but just can't seem to get on a plane for 24 hours. I'll probably do Hawaii before Australia

Chago, going to Hawaii instead of the Great Barrier Reef is like playing hockey on a gravel parking lot instead of an ice rink!!!!!

Peter

nineball · 04/14/2010, 10:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by stone.david

anymore pictures to share

David, I will take some pics of the live rock during the wash and rinse cycle. The next major chapter will be the fish room and I expect a lot of themes to develop over the next couple of weeks. Sorry to take so long between chapters but quality will remain job one for the duration..............

Peter

nineball · 04/14/2010, 11:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PauChi

Oh man .... Shawn's aka mr.wilson's detailed information is overloading my 'ole brain memory ....

!!! It's an overdose of Reef 101 all over .... why didn't we have the internet like ages ago and the amount of wasted $$$ on magazines & to be told that "you can't keep reef in a 20 gallon tank" ....

!!

And lookit here ... a 21st Century massive tank in the works

!!! This has got to be one of the most educational reef thread that I've ever come across ... PERIOD!!

Thanks Peter

(oh btw ... I'm free this weekend

)

Paul

Paul, by the time we see fish in this tank we will all have felt that we have completed a post graduate degree in marine biology and reef management!!!!

Having said that, my hope is that we might even have some fun along the way. Who says that learning must be boring?

Peter

nineball · 04/14/2010, 11:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by capn_hylinur

I agree 100 per cent.
I just added another link to the Capn's log book thread on factors that influence temperature
http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/sh...1786183&page=7

Well done capn, I applaud your efforts to capture the value in these exchanges. In many respects this represents the best synthesis of current thinking on many of the topics surrounding our hobby. Well worth reading and updating as the evolution continues.

Thank you again for your efforts..........

Peter

PauChi · 04/14/2010, 11:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by nineball

.... post graduate degree in marine biology and reef management!!!!

Having said that, my hope is that we might even have some fun along the way. Who says that learning must be boring?

Close Encounters of the Reef Kind

!!

Paul

Antonais1391 · 04/14/2010, 12:54 PM

IMO any one who reefs with any sort of passion could talk his stuff with the ppl with marine bio degrees. could still lern from ppl with the degree but youget what im saying

lol. theres always something to learn and i wanna learn it, my view on life

salsipuedes · 04/14/2010, 02:51 PM

Wow. I think I finally just finished reading all the posts. Very impressive to say the least. I must say you have a hell of a home and an incredible passion for this hobby (obsession). Having been a scuba diver since the age of 14 and enjoying taking trips around the world to scuba dive, I've always wanted a tank big enough to recreate some of my favorite spots or features underwater. Your tank is my dream. One day, I will aspire to create something as beautiful as you are doing and hopefuly do some of my favorite dive spots justice. Until then, I'll have to make do with my 125, 92 corner, and multitude of other smaller tanks until I have the resources, and time to dedicate to such an undertaking. You are truly an inspiration on how to do things right the first time. I cant wait to see what it looks like when completed.

any thoughts as to what you will be keeping? I read about your tribute to your inspirations and i think that's very noble but do you have any insight as to if its going to be predominantly one kind of coral? or a mix?

cause I've always wanted to do a mixed reef with everything from sps, lps, triggers, sharks, clams, and pretty much everything in the ocean that eats each other and doesn't go together.

oh and one last question... what coral will you definitely have? One that you cannot do without...

Just curious

this one's for you!!

04/13/2010, 07:56 PM	#1282
spiderphil360 Registered Member Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: canada, quebec Posts: 44	Amazing Really ! It's unreal !!!! Great details ! I will seek this post every week !!! I am impacient to see more pictures (sorry my english is bad !)

04/13/2010, 08:47 PM	#1285
mr.wilson RC Sponsor Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Toronto, Canada Posts: 2,803	Back to the live rock exposure question... It's only monster tanks (I just had to edit "mobster tanks". Sorry Peter, please call off the hit ) like Peter's that require the live rock to be acclimated in dedicated remote vats/tanks/tubs. If your tank is under 500 gallons, you can add the rock directly to the tank dry, spraying or splashing water on it periodically as you work. I drill some rocks and place them over a PVC pipe skeleton. I also use an aragocrete cement mix to bond the rocks. This requires a day for the cement to set. Wrapping the rocks in wet newspaper or towels is enough to keep it alive. The cement causes a temporary PH & calcium increase and the rock needs a few weeks to get its "sea legs" so the rock acclimation process is carried out in the display tank. As a general rule, I recommend that you purchase cured rock and let the LFS go through the hassle. The added benefit is you can pick and choose your rocks according to your needs and what is available. Peter's rock is direct from the source so it requires a few more precautions. It's also hard to change 1200 gallons of water every week In summary, as long as the rock is kept damp, it will remain healthy. As I stated in an earlier post, from a nitrification/bacterial standpoint, damp rock is healthier than wet/submerged rock during acclimation. The various toxic forms of nitrogen (ammonia, nitrite, and to a lesser extent nitrate) are not an issue if the rock isn't submerged in water. This is also true of oxygen and other gas levels. Last edited by mr.wilson; 04/13/2010 at 09:09 PM.

04/12/2010, 11:38 PM	#1278
john baker Registered Member Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: australia Posts: 46	Peter have you given thought to letting your tank mature before putting live stock in. I mean maturing as in leaving it for at least 3 months and letting all the small cycles that most tanks go through, small algae blooms and the like, I will be leaving my new tank for at least 6 months. I will try to dig up some great suggestions from very knowledgeable people.

04/13/2010, 08:26 PM	#1283
mr.wilson RC Sponsor Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Toronto, Canada Posts: 2,803	Here are a few notes on climate control... First of all the reports that reef tanks thrive at 82F are absolutely true. I aim for 80F because it is the easiest value to maintain without using any additional resources/energy (heaters & chillers). Once you plug in all of your equipment, the tank will level off to about 79-80F. It would require the use of one or likely more heaters to maintain 82F, so I go with the flow and settle with an easily manageable 80F. If you have a chiller, it should be set to come on at 84F as basically a fail-safe. Heaters should bet set to come on at 79F to maintain consistency. If you set your system operating level to 82F, it leaves a little less room for temperature climbs. A target temp of 80F leaves room in both directions for error. For a large system like Peter's, I would use an inline titanium heater run on the main controller. Sump heaters tend to degrade due to salt exposure in the seals and wiring. They also take a bit of a beating during water changes and servicing as they are left on while exposed to air. I use a piece of styrofoam to make a float for the top of the heater so it can float in the sump, keeping the sensitive parts dry (suction cups don't last long in salt water). The heater(s) should be located in a part of the sump where the water level is constant. The styrofoam floats will allow the heater to follow the water level, should it fluctuate. I would focus my attention on climate control of the ambient room temp with air conditioning or a furnace/boiler, and save aquarium devices in-line or in the sump for fine tuning. While I would never talk anyone out of a fail-safe device, you have to remember that everything you plumb into your system could potentially leak, and everything you plug in could potentially cause stray current or shock/fire hazard. I don't use chillers as a general rule. It's part of the K.I.S.S. (keep it simple stupid) or "less is more" approach. The factors that influence system temperature are as follows... 1) Ambient room temperature: North American homes are warm in the winter and cool in the summer, thanks to our desire for convenience and comfort and with a little help from huge utility bills As a matter of fact, many homes are warmer in the winter than they are in the summer, and cooler in the summer than in the winter. Typical ambient room temperature is somewhere around 72F (for the record, we use metric in Canada). Working with 72F, we can assume that still water will reach equilibrium with that temperature. Once you start moving the water it has more contact with the surface where the temperature reaches equilibrium. A cooling effect starts when surface water evaporates and takes with it heat. Evaporative cooling is a very important process that we will discuss later. 2) Aquarium location: This factor is directly related to the ambient room temperature covered above. An aquarium located in a basement, or with a sump in the basement or garage will run cooler than an aquarium in an upper floor of a house. Even the position of the tank with relation to the floor makes a difference. While I operated a tropical fish wholesale warehouse, I found that the three levels of tanks showed different temperatures. The freshwater tanks where not on an open system, just air-driven sponge filters. I heated the warehouse to 80F, but the bottom tanks 1' off of the ground were 74F, the middle row 3' off of the ground were 76F, and the top row 5' off of the ground were 78F. Peter's radiant floor heating will eliminate this heat gradient issue. Placing the sump directly on a concrete floor will offer cooling. 3) System volume: Having a large sump is a cheap and easy way to improve thermal dynamics if you have the space. The extra system volume will also improve water quality, as the saying goes "the only solution to pollution is dilution". The best solution is actually filtration, rather than sweeping the problem under the rug, but it doesn't rhyme so I doubt it will ever catch on Saltwater has greater density than freshwater, so it holds its temperature longer. Large tanks (over 200 gallons) are particularly stable with little or no fluctuation caused by day/night ambient room temperature shifts. In other words, the room may be cooler at night, but the tank will stabilize at a compromise temp somewhere between the day & night temp. The large thermal mass of a big tank makes quick temperature changes up or down more difficult, but nature doesn't like change, so overall the thermal mass is a good thing for stability. Remember that bleaching incidents on natural coral reefs has been noted after only 2F temperature increases. This doesn't mean a 2F increase in temperature will bleach (expelling symbiotic algae/zooxanthellae) or kill corals, but it does underscore the necessity for stability. 4) Heat transfer: Every electrical device, including chillers add heat to aquariums. Add a few degrees for pumps, a few more for UV sterilizers and a lot more for lighting and your cooler than room temp tank is suddenly 10F hotter. Some of this heat is unavoidable, but most of it can be at least minimized. Directing a 12" circulation fan perpendicular toward the display or sump surface will drop the temp 5-9F. The evaporative cooling effect will tax your top-off system a little more so make sure you can keep up with the demand. A second fan can be used to blow across the surface of the water, pushing radiant heat from the light away from the water. Raising or lowering the lights will also influence heat transfer. Venting the cabinet or filter room is an often overlooked detail of climate control. Some pumps don't employ cooling fans and subsequently run at very high temps (130-140F). This is not a problem if the heat is allowed to vent away from the system, rather than trapping it and raising the ambient temp and surface water temp. Chillers are an important device to vent as the heat exchanger will dump that heat right back into your system so it works against itself. 5) Water movement: As mentioned in the previous points, good water movement will increase the amount of water exposed to the surface for thermal and gas exchange. A good system of flow dynamics assures that water is moved from the bottom where it is cooler an d lower in dissolved oxygen to the surface where it can be oxygenated and heat can vent. Using a glass top will raise the temperature about 5F. While this is rarely desirable, it's a good practice if there is an extended power outage and your back-up power is limited. I assume Peter has a natural gas generator and UPS/deep charge marine battery backup. Certain filtration devices (gas reactor, wet/dry filter, shallow ATS etc.) work as evaporative coolers or cooling towers. In general, these evaporative efforts are directly connected to improved gas exchange as well. 6) Air quality: Fresh, dry air will be cooler than stale humid air and gas exchange is more efficient. Peter's HRV unit is more than enough to handle this issue. It also vents equipment to deal with heat transfer.

04/13/2010, 10:09 PM	#1288
nineball Registered Member Join Date: Aug 2009 Location: Oakville Ontario Canada Posts: 2,518	Mr Wilson, your contribution is as usual, welcome and far more exhaustive than I deserve. You have covered a lot of territory and the team will benefit from some of the observations you have made. I will be raising some of the issues you have identified in the context of some of the information I have started to incorporate and haven't updated the thread as yet..............soon, very very soon. Thank you sir, you are a gentleman and this forum is a beneficiary of your discipline. Peter

04/14/2010, 01:16 AM	#1291
Antonais1391 Registered Member Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: sadly camdenton missori Posts: 276	thx for the lesson Mr. Wilson very helpfull to all of us been wondering about cooling heating issues lately as im getting 2 250w MH for my 75g tank (90g total system) build. also thought id mention the guys at my local petco think all water movement should be created by HOB filters LMAO. whats even more funny is i know a dunce that believed them.

04/14/2010, 03:42 AM	#1292
stone.david Registered Member Join Date: May 2009 Location: New Zealand Posts: 83	anymore pictures to share

04/14/2010, 07:11 AM	#1293
PauChi Registered Member Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: Toronto Posts: 488	Oh man .... Shawn's aka mr.wilson's detailed information is overloading my 'ole brain memory .... !!! It's an overdose of Reef 101 all over .... why didn't we have the internet like ages ago and the amount of wasted $$$ on magazines & to be told that "you can't keep reef in a 20 gallon tank" .... !! And lookit here ... a 21st Century massive tank in the works !!! This has got to be one of the most educational reef thread that I've ever come across ... PERIOD!! Thanks Peter (oh btw ... I'm free this weekend ) Paul

04/14/2010, 12:54 PM	#1299
Antonais1391 Registered Member Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: sadly camdenton missori Posts: 276	IMO any one who reefs with any sort of passion could talk his stuff with the ppl with marine bio degrees. could still lern from ppl with the degree but youget what im saying lol. theres always something to learn and i wanna learn it, my view on life

04/14/2010, 02:51 PM	#1300
salsipuedes Registered Member Join Date: Nov 2006 Posts: 209	Wow. I think I finally just finished reading all the posts. Very impressive to say the least. I must say you have a hell of a home and an incredible passion for this hobby (obsession). Having been a scuba diver since the age of 14 and enjoying taking trips around the world to scuba dive, I've always wanted a tank big enough to recreate some of my favorite spots or features underwater. Your tank is my dream. One day, I will aspire to create something as beautiful as you are doing and hopefuly do some of my favorite dive spots justice. Until then, I'll have to make do with my 125, 92 corner, and multitude of other smaller tanks until I have the resources, and time to dedicate to such an undertaking. You are truly an inspiration on how to do things right the first time. I cant wait to see what it looks like when completed. any thoughts as to what you will be keeping? I read about your tribute to your inspirations and i think that's very noble but do you have any insight as to if its going to be predominantly one kind of coral? or a mix? cause I've always wanted to do a mixed reef with everything from sps, lps, triggers, sharks, clams, and pretty much everything in the ocean that eats each other and doesn't go together. oh and one last question... what coral will you definitely have? One that you cannot do without... Just curious this one's for you!!