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Unread 10/13/2005, 08:39 AM   #1
mogurnda
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vinegar as carbon source?

Can I use vinegar to supplement carbon? When I used to dose kalk in the reef, I added vinegar to boost solubility and alkanlinity. I had thought about using bicarbonate, but thought vinegar may do the trick better, especially if I wanted to include kalk for a little extra calcium.

Any reason this sounds like a bad idea?


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Unread 10/13/2005, 08:49 AM   #2
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Vinegar will do funny things to your ph. and stink.


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Unread 10/13/2005, 11:59 AM   #3
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Adding 5% acetic acid - plain white vinegar - is a well known way to extend limewater (kalkwasser). Carbonate alkalinity will be increased. Its added to limewater at up to 2 Tblspoon/gal. The organic carbon in the vinegar is consumed by bacteria.


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Unread 10/13/2005, 12:53 PM   #4
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Maybe I wasn't clear. I have used vinegar with kalk for quite some time, but will it be useful as a carbon supplement for the plants?


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Unread 10/13/2005, 02:04 PM   #5
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Hmmm. Okay, so as I have been going about things there have been mainly two ways in my head to add back carbon into the system after the plants have had their fun.

Bump Alk with dosing, such an sodium bi-carb
Bump free CO2 with dosing - either DIY or single source

In my tank I have loss of Alk and pH shifts caused by loss of free-CO2. I now see the plants pearling throughout the day. Newly clipped or thinned sections stream O2/CO2 back into the system until healed by the plants.

So far I only supplement back Alk with sodium bicarb and calcium carb from dry chemical state. I allow the pH shifts.. for now.. so I'm not messing with the free-CO2 problem.

Dave are you suggesting that I could use a Kalk reactor with some vinegar to do the Alk dosing without adding in dry bicarbs? And.. does this do anything for free CO2 in the system?

I'm not super clear on how a Kalk reactor works.. can you give me a good link? If a Kalk reactor will add back Alk, keep Ca stable and keep free CO2 at a reasonable level so that none of these are really moving about during the day.. well.. that would be fantastic!

Thanks!
>Sarah


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Unread 10/13/2005, 02:48 PM   #6
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Sarah, check the DIY forum. Kalk reactors are realy simple...


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Unread 10/13/2005, 02:53 PM   #7
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Hi Sarah,

It's not a reactor per se, just a reservoir with a mix of kalkwasser (CaOH) and vinegar. In the absence of vinegar, the OH reacts with CO2 to produce HCO3. However, one needs to have sufficient CO2 in order for this reaction to continue and keep alkalinity up.

That's where the vinegar comes in. In theory (not sure if it's really been tested) it's metabolized to CO2 by bacteria, and that serves as a CO2 source. In practice, it works.

So, I was wondering whether it would work, or whether there would be any advantage, to using vinegar as a carbon source. Can the plants use acetic acid directly? One benefit, from my point of view, is that I could add kalkwasser to the mix if I wanted to supplement Ca.

Here's a link to the chemistry:
http://www.reefscapes.net/articles/b...alkwasser.html


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Unread 10/16/2005, 12:14 PM   #8
piercho
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Quote:
Can the plants use acetic acid directly?
Its an energy source for bacteria so they are the direct users, not primary producers. Not sure what the end product is when you are not using acetic as a booster for limewater. People who use vodka or sugar in their reefs might could tell you, these are also organic C sources so the end products should be similar.

I'm missing the point? If you are running at pH higher than 8.4 you can increase available C by increasing gas exchange between the tank and atmosphere. If you want to to boost carbonate alk, you add sodium bicarb at the penalty of gradually raising Na. If you want to increase the availability of C even further, you can dissolve CO2 into the tank, at the penalty and risk of depressing pH. You can keep carbonate alk, Ca++, and available C all available at boosted levels by using a calcium reactor. Spiking limewater offers a cheap way to marginally increase all three, as well. The last two methods (spiking limewater or using Ca reactor) may have a tendancy to depress N:P ratios, spiked limewater by increasing bacterial consumption of NO4 or other sources of N, Ca reactors by providing a source of PO4.

So anyway, IMO the above methods are your choices. If you don't have elevated pH, I don't think availability of C is a problem for plants to begin with. Samala, didn't you discuss this with Tom Barr a ways back? You were using sodium bicarb and he said just put a skimmer or such on the tank to boost gas exchange? I don't know at what pH there becomes a deficit of C. In most reefs tanks we shoot for equilibrium, around 8.2-8.3, and it would never be in short supply for primary production at those levels, right?


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Unread 10/16/2005, 02:21 PM   #9
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Thanks for the input.

Can increased gas exchange really work? I'm a bit surprised, since it won't work at all in a FW planted tank. The low solubility of CO2 in water and the high rate of absorption by the plants means that one can have an ugly mass of algae if one tried that. Sounds like I still have a ton to learn about marine plants.

I am using pressurized CO2 injection for my FW plants, and a Ca reactor for the reef. Each has attendant risks and expenses, so I was hoping for a low-tech solution for the seagrasses.

Sounds like what you're saying, though, is that it may work.


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Unread 10/16/2005, 06:12 PM   #10
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Hi Howard! Great to see you around, you always have such great advice. I did ask Tom about this before.. and I am actually running a cheap skimmer plus two airstones plus adding in the sodium bicarb to try to keep pH stable and carbon available in the system. Its not enough. Alkalinity erodes through the day about 0.6 - 0.8meg/L worth, pH creeps up from 8.2 to 8.5 through the day. So they seem to be using both carbonate stripping and free carbon dioxide in suspension for their carbon needs.. which is perplexing.. since with freshwater plants they usually use one system or the other.. and are quite perturbed if you switch their carbon source. Preferentially all the FW plants like CO2 over carbonate as far as I understand. Who knows if any of that applies to the saltwater guys..

Since I cant seem to keep free CO2 stable to have a stable pH through the photoperiod I am really thinking of doing DIY CO2 on the tank for a while to see how that plays with pH and such. I can re-home the seahorses back to the their quarantine tank for a few weeks to see how it progresses.

Perhaps sodium bicarb dosing to keep alk stable, with some CO2 dosing to even out pH through the light cycle, will help the parameters be a bit more even. And perhaps plant growth would be better with them.

I would consider running a calcium reactor.. but adding in PO4 at unknown amounts is a bit like playing with fire. Same for messing with NO4 rates.. though that would be the 'easier' of the two to manage. Its been okay so far to overdose N.. not P. (All I remember is the tank of green death after I OD'd the P.)

Think the CO2 is the way to go?
>Sarah


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Unread 10/17/2005, 08:30 AM   #11
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Howard,

I hope I didn't some off as petulant in my previous posts.

My question about vinegar came up because I knew Sarah was having trouble keeping up with the plants' bicarbonate use. I have never had such a problem with macroalgae, but I get the impression that vascular plants are a different ballgame.

For the moment, everything is fine, but I am trying to anticipate future needs. Assuming I get good growth when the tank settles down, I didn't want to see my alkalinity crash.


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Unread 10/17/2005, 10:00 AM   #12
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Sarah,
the contribution of P from ca reactors is usually low - but present. As you know many things will be bound in the calcium carbonate matrix and can include substantial amounts of "good" things for plants like iron and magnesium. The substrates sold - at a premium price - for use in reactors are mostly pure calcium carbonate with very low levels of P. I don't think that a small contribution of P would matter in a planted tank already being dosed with fertilizers, like yours. SPS reef keepers stress over the small contribution of P a great deal. There is some published data on the makeup of reactor medias if you like me to try and locate it.

Dave,
yes IME it works to an extent, expecially if you are running pH as high as 8.6 which I was at one time. Before I moved the tank I was using 2 Medo AC602s air pumps (1.7 CFM each @ 4') for my 20GPM external lift, 7G RCSD, and 6' X 4" skimmer on a little 65G display tank/100G system. My pH came to be 8.3 or lower, even using limewater (a big demand for CO2) for makeup. Since I've moved house I'm trying to come up with a simpler method to get adequit exchange, which primarily involves an overflow that drafts air and mixes it with water as it drops the water to the sump.

But if you are dealing with densely planted tank without much turnover than you have a different set of parameters to deal with than I do.

The use of acetic has been discussed a bit around the boards. Its speculated that its the bacteria food sold with the Zeovit system, and like we've been saying people use it to boost the potency of limewater. I have a basic understanding of how the limewater boosting works and have tinkered with that method off and on. I don't now what the end products are when acetic is not used as a booster for limewater but is just dosed directly to the tank.


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