Green Mandarin (Synchiropus splendidus) Breeding Log! - Page 34

mwp · 09/13/2006, 11:15 PM

Geeze, I didn't realize it had already been this long. FWIW, the last of the Mandarin larvae were gone today. I drained down the tank and have it filled with fresh hot tap water (went in at 119.3 F).

It looks like tonight is the night for Apogon leptacanthus fry - I'm thinking I'm going to give them a try this time around, IF I can catch the male before he eats or releases them into the tank!

FWIW,

Matt

apistomaster · 09/14/2006, 09:41 PM

Hi Matt,
Are you familiar with the myth of Sisyphus? At least you have choices of which stone to roll. One of these guys will yield to your efforts sooner or later.
Larry

mwp · 09/14/2006, 10:46 PM

Larry, 12 years ago when I studied that I'd probably remember what it's about, but that info has since been replaced with computer code and fish breeding idiosyncricies!

MP

apistomaster · 09/15/2006, 08:33 PM

It's just a reference to tortured persistence.
Larry

mwp · 09/15/2006, 08:40 PM

Sounds about right Larry

Matt

mwp · 09/15/2006, 10:23 PM

It's 11:15 PM...I went to the tank and noticed the mandarins are courting...unfortunately I had to interrupt them to do a small water change (3 gallons)...hopefully it won't bother them TOO much and we'll still get a spawn this evening.

Matt

mwp · 09/16/2006, 12:06 AM

9-16-06, 12:39 AM - We have a SPAWN! - So the lights went out really late, maybe 12:20...they spawn occured after that. This was probably the smallest and "most sticky" spawn to date...I only found ONE loose egg.

So the spawns seem to be getting smaller and less frequent...I just wonder if our female is starting to "wear out"?

I did basically the same thing I did with the last spawn; collected it all, placed it in the .5 gallon specimen cup, no aeration, and hung it in a heated aquarium - this time the larval aquarium. I turned up the heater a bit (as I type this it's at 80.7F). If this ends up being a "repeat" of the success with the last spawn, I think that backs up the results pretty well. We'll know in about 12 hours!

Matt

mwp · 09/16/2006, 02:03 AM

Larval tank was at 81.5F as of 3:00 AM and the heater is off. I'm going to bump it up one more notch.

Matt

jake levi · 09/16/2006, 09:18 AM

Matt I am curious, could there also be a seasonal element in action, or is it a season when old enough factor ?

Could the female be over the hump agewise at the end of the season? I am just wondering.

I am really hoping that you get some raised up so that you have a group with known history to work with.

Forestal · 09/16/2006, 11:39 AM

i am also thinkging must be seasonal, for a female to produce as much as yours did, she needs some time to recover...
it would be interesting to plot your spawn dates on a lunar calendar and look at times of year and moon cycle(may not be related)

mwp · 09/16/2006, 11:47 AM

Dan, Jake, I've actually been plotting all my OBSERVED spawning dates against the lunar cycle and I'm convinced there is a positive correlation between full moons and increased spawning.

The observation that mandarins spawn "daily" in nature may be misleading...it may not be that every FEMALE spawns daily, but that there is daily spawning activity within the overall mandarin population. I could see where a MALE is ready to spawn every night. I have ALSO had spawns occur on back-to-back nights for 2 or 3 nights, but in general the average for a while there was every 4 days (I think that the time between spawns is starting to lengthen in general).

Of course, I have to keep in mind that there have been a few trips over the past couple months where I have not been able to observe and record any spawnings that MIGHT have occured.

No hatch yet on the eggs, at least not when I last checked them at 11:30 AM. The larval tank is now running at 82F.

Matt

jake levi · 09/16/2006, 12:44 PM

Matt are they spawning by the calendar month or do you have artificial moonlight ? Or both ?

mwp · 09/16/2006, 01:12 PM

I'm keeping track against the calendar month...my lighting schedule is entirely erratic...sometimes on a timer, sometimes not and when NOT on a timer, lights on and lights out times really vary.

Matt

mwp · 09/16/2006, 01:14 PM

HATCHING HAS BEEN CRACKED - IT'S ENTIRELY TEMPERATURE RELATED!

So I "shook up" the specimen cup at 2:11 PM and there are LARVAE EVERYWHERE!

I'll come back with a headcount soon.

Matt

mwp · 09/16/2006, 02:33 PM

163 larvae and there's probably still some hatching!

Larval tank temps (and thus incubation temps) were hovering between 81.5 and 82.0 F.

Now, to be fair, these last two spawns have had some lag time between them...i.e. 8-11 days I think (would have to check my records). The REAL test is on back-to-back spawns, i.e. 1 or 2 days appart. If THOSE hatch as well, I think that would rule out parental diet / egg quality and truly NAIL DOWN TEMPERATURE as the SOLE factor required to successfully hatch mandarins. Afterall, this setup had NO circulation or aeration of ANY KIND...just a 0.5 gallon specimen cup hanging in the larval tank.

WHOO FREAKIN' WHOO!!!!!!

Matt

mwp · 09/16/2006, 02:49 PM

OK, so he're a picture of the babies in their temporary gladware container (while acclimating to the larval tank). It's huge, so I'm not going to post it INLINE - simply click the link to get the ORIGINAL full size image.

http://www.cichlidrecipe.com/nanoree...171_oodles.JPG

MP

mwp · 09/16/2006, 03:24 PM

FINAL COUNT - 167 larvae, 38 unhatched eggs remaining in the cup!

Matt

Kathy55g · 09/16/2006, 05:20 PM

Bravo!

BrianPlankis · 09/16/2006, 06:06 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by mwp
FINAL COUNT - 167 larvae, 38 unhatched eggs remaining in the cup!

Matt

That is just freakin awesome Matt!!! All that hard work and you now have cracked getting them hatched!!! Now you can start working on foods

Keep up the great work!

Brian

Tommyc · 09/16/2006, 06:41 PM

Matt,

That's Great! I hope you're right in that it's temp that's been the hatching issue all this time. I noted you said this was the "stickiest" spawn yet with only one loose egg....that seems to indicate something different right from the start. You'll have to test the temp theory with another spawn that isn't so sticky to see if it's solely the temp ... any changes in the parents diet recently?

tom

aomont · 09/16/2006, 10:44 PM

Now thatÂ´s a hatch !!!!!!!!!!!! Congratulations !
IÂ´m with Tom on the stickness of the spawn, has anything changed at all ?
Anderson.

jake levi · 09/17/2006, 07:23 AM

Congrats Matt !

step by step is the way it goes.

You should have enough pics to do a good book from all of this.

beashay · 09/17/2006, 07:47 AM

Excellent pictures and awesome video thanks for sharing...

Forestal · 09/17/2006, 12:50 PM

congrats Matt, keep up the great work

mwp · 09/17/2006, 09:05 PM

First to answer some questions - other than a reduced spawning frequency which may in part be due to less massive feedings, nothing else has really changed in my mandarin care. Have two larger hatches at 80-81 and then 81-82 F respectively seems to pretty well prove the temp influence so far - I think I mentioned before that I think the REAL test will be when I get a back-to-back spawn again - seeing how the one on the 1st and 2nd day hatch out when given the same higher temps would probably solidify the working "thesis" that temp is the key.

So it's 9-17-06, 10:00 PM, 32 hours post hatch. I thought some QX5 pictures of the 32 hour old larvae were in order - I pulled out 2 larvae to shoot; I think it's self explainitory which is 10X, 60X and 200X

The tank got 0.75 L of Tetraselmis this evening...they're still sharing the tank with Apogon leptacanthus larvae for now....

FWIW,

MP

09/14/2006, 09:41 PM	#827
apistomaster Registered Member Join Date: May 2006 Location: Clarkston,WA Posts: 81	Hi Matt, Are you familiar with the myth of Sisyphus? At least you have choices of which stone to roll. One of these guys will yield to your efforts sooner or later. Larry __________________ apistomaster Current Tank Info: Mostly discus breeding

09/15/2006, 08:33 PM	#829
apistomaster Registered Member Join Date: May 2006 Location: Clarkston,WA Posts: 81	It's just a reference to tortured persistence. Larry __________________ apistomaster Current Tank Info: Mostly discus breeding

09/16/2006, 09:18 AM	#834
jake levi Registered Member Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: North Central Michigan Posts: 543	Matt I am curious, could there also be a seasonal element in action, or is it a season when old enough factor ? Could the female be over the hump agewise at the end of the season? I am just wondering. I am really hoping that you get some raised up so that you have a group with known history to work with. __________________ Jake We are all in this together Current Tank Info: reef tanks oriented towards pairs of reef fish

09/16/2006, 11:39 AM	#835
Forestal Premium Member Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Vermont Posts: 752	i am also thinkging must be seasonal, for a female to produce as much as yours did, she needs some time to recover... it would be interesting to plot your spawn dates on a lunar calendar and look at times of year and moon cycle(may not be related) __________________ Peace, Dan Current Tank Info: 75 mixed Indopacific reef

09/16/2006, 12:44 PM	#837
jake levi Registered Member Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: North Central Michigan Posts: 543	Matt are they spawning by the calendar month or do you have artificial moonlight ? Or both ? __________________ Jake We are all in this together Current Tank Info: reef tanks oriented towards pairs of reef fish

09/13/2006, 11:15 PM	#826
mwp Moved On Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Chicago, IL Posts: 2,637	Geeze, I didn't realize it had already been this long. FWIW, the last of the Mandarin larvae were gone today. I drained down the tank and have it filled with fresh hot tap water (went in at 119.3 F). It looks like tonight is the night for Apogon leptacanthus fry - I'm thinking I'm going to give them a try this time around, IF I can catch the male before he eats or releases them into the tank! FWIW, Matt

09/14/2006, 10:46 PM	#828
mwp Moved On Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Chicago, IL Posts: 2,637	Larry, 12 years ago when I studied that I'd probably remember what it's about, but that info has since been replaced with computer code and fish breeding idiosyncricies! MP

09/15/2006, 08:40 PM	#830
mwp Moved On Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Chicago, IL Posts: 2,637	Sounds about right Larry Matt

09/15/2006, 10:23 PM	#831
mwp Moved On Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Chicago, IL Posts: 2,637	It's 11:15 PM...I went to the tank and noticed the mandarins are courting...unfortunately I had to interrupt them to do a small water change (3 gallons)...hopefully it won't bother them TOO much and we'll still get a spawn this evening. Matt

09/16/2006, 12:06 AM	#832
mwp Moved On Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Chicago, IL Posts: 2,637	9-16-06, 12:39 AM - We have a SPAWN! - So the lights went out really late, maybe 12:20...they spawn occured after that. This was probably the smallest and "most sticky" spawn to date...I only found ONE loose egg. So the spawns seem to be getting smaller and less frequent...I just wonder if our female is starting to "wear out"? I did basically the same thing I did with the last spawn; collected it all, placed it in the .5 gallon specimen cup, no aeration, and hung it in a heated aquarium - this time the larval aquarium. I turned up the heater a bit (as I type this it's at 80.7F). If this ends up being a "repeat" of the success with the last spawn, I think that backs up the results pretty well. We'll know in about 12 hours! Matt

09/16/2006, 02:03 AM	#833
mwp Moved On Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Chicago, IL Posts: 2,637	Larval tank was at 81.5F as of 3:00 AM and the heater is off. I'm going to bump it up one more notch. Matt

09/16/2006, 11:47 AM	#836
mwp Moved On Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Chicago, IL Posts: 2,637	Dan, Jake, I've actually been plotting all my OBSERVED spawning dates against the lunar cycle and I'm convinced there is a positive correlation between full moons and increased spawning. The observation that mandarins spawn "daily" in nature may be misleading...it may not be that every FEMALE spawns daily, but that there is daily spawning activity within the overall mandarin population. I could see where a MALE is ready to spawn every night. I have ALSO had spawns occur on back-to-back nights for 2 or 3 nights, but in general the average for a while there was every 4 days (I think that the time between spawns is starting to lengthen in general). Of course, I have to keep in mind that there have been a few trips over the past couple months where I have not been able to observe and record any spawnings that MIGHT have occured. No hatch yet on the eggs, at least not when I last checked them at 11:30 AM. The larval tank is now running at 82F. Matt

09/16/2006, 01:12 PM	#838
mwp Moved On Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Chicago, IL Posts: 2,637	I'm keeping track against the calendar month...my lighting schedule is entirely erratic...sometimes on a timer, sometimes not and when NOT on a timer, lights on and lights out times really vary. Matt

09/16/2006, 01:14 PM	#839
mwp Moved On Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Chicago, IL Posts: 2,637	HATCHING HAS BEEN CRACKED - IT'S ENTIRELY TEMPERATURE RELATED! So I "shook up" the specimen cup at 2:11 PM and there are LARVAE EVERYWHERE! I'll come back with a headcount soon. Matt

09/16/2006, 02:33 PM	#840
mwp Moved On Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Chicago, IL Posts: 2,637	163 larvae and there's probably still some hatching! Larval tank temps (and thus incubation temps) were hovering between 81.5 and 82.0 F. Now, to be fair, these last two spawns have had some lag time between them...i.e. 8-11 days I think (would have to check my records). The REAL test is on back-to-back spawns, i.e. 1 or 2 days appart. If THOSE hatch as well, I think that would rule out parental diet / egg quality and truly NAIL DOWN TEMPERATURE as the SOLE factor required to successfully hatch mandarins. Afterall, this setup had NO circulation or aeration of ANY KIND...just a 0.5 gallon specimen cup hanging in the larval tank. WHOO FREAKIN' WHOO!!!!!! Matt

09/16/2006, 02:49 PM	#841
mwp Moved On Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Chicago, IL Posts: 2,637	OK, so he're a picture of the babies in their temporary gladware container (while acclimating to the larval tank). It's huge, so I'm not going to post it INLINE - simply click the link to get the ORIGINAL full size image. http://www.cichlidrecipe.com/nanoree...171_oodles.JPG MP

09/16/2006, 03:24 PM	#842
mwp Moved On Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Chicago, IL Posts: 2,637	FINAL COUNT - 167 larvae, 38 unhatched eggs remaining in the cup! Matt

09/16/2006, 05:20 PM	#843
Kathy55g Moved On Join Date: Mar 2004 Posts: 3,249	Bravo!

09/16/2006, 06:41 PM	#845
Tommyc Registered Member Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: SE Maryland Posts: 414	Matt, That's Great! I hope you're right in that it's temp that's been the hatching issue all this time. I noted you said this was the "stickiest" spawn yet with only one loose egg....that seems to indicate something different right from the start. You'll have to test the temp theory with another spawn that isn't so sticky to see if it's solely the temp ... any changes in the parents diet recently? tom __________________ "Only two things will get you into an unrecoverable position faster than a computer - firearms and tequila."

09/16/2006, 10:44 PM	#846
aomont Registered Member Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: Rio de Janeiro, Brazil Posts: 410	Now thatÂ´s a hatch !!!!!!!!!!!! Congratulations ! IÂ´m with Tom on the stickness of the spawn, has anything changed at all ? Anderson. __________________ "Posso não saber de nada mas suspeito de muita coisa..."

09/17/2006, 07:23 AM	#847
jake levi Registered Member Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: North Central Michigan Posts: 543	Congrats Matt ! step by step is the way it goes. You should have enough pics to do a good book from all of this. __________________ Jake We are all in this together Current Tank Info: reef tanks oriented towards pairs of reef fish

09/17/2006, 07:47 AM	#848
beashay Registered Member Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Arkansas Posts: 81	Excellent pictures and awesome video thanks for sharing...

09/17/2006, 12:50 PM	#849
Forestal Premium Member Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Vermont Posts: 752	congrats Matt, keep up the great work __________________ Peace, Dan Current Tank Info: 75 mixed Indopacific reef

09/17/2006, 09:05 PM	#850
mwp Moved On Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Chicago, IL Posts: 2,637	First to answer some questions - other than a reduced spawning frequency which may in part be due to less massive feedings, nothing else has really changed in my mandarin care. Have two larger hatches at 80-81 and then 81-82 F respectively seems to pretty well prove the temp influence so far - I think I mentioned before that I think the REAL test will be when I get a back-to-back spawn again - seeing how the one on the 1st and 2nd day hatch out when given the same higher temps would probably solidify the working "thesis" that temp is the key. So it's 9-17-06, 10:00 PM, 32 hours post hatch. I thought some QX5 pictures of the 32 hour old larvae were in order - I pulled out 2 larvae to shoot; I think it's self explainitory which is 10X, 60X and 200X The tank got 0.75 L of Tetraselmis this evening...they're still sharing the tank with Apogon leptacanthus larvae for now.... FWIW, MP