Alk question -

Xxxtremewv · 03/21/2018, 11:15 AM

So some of my acans have lost their puffiness and fullness these past couple weeks, so in my trek to figure out what the heck is going on, I am starting to come to the conclusion that alk may have something to do with it (I think). It looks like its been dipping down to 7 between water changes, so was thinking about starting to dose and get it to stay around 9. Now I have tried searching through dozens of thread and am finding conflicting answers, so figured Id just make a thread and ask.

I am interpretting some threads to say you have to dose alk and calcium, not just alk by itself. Is that correct? My calcium stays about 430-440 and magnesium stays steady at 1380-1400, so I dont have any issues there right this moment. Salinity is 1.024-1.025. I actually bought a couple brs drews dosers here a while back and I have the equipment and jugs to do BRS 2-part dosing, so I have everything I need, but I dont want to go doing anything wrong from the start. Can I just dose alk safely?

Thanks!

Xxxtremewv · 03/21/2018, 11:28 AM

Forgot to mention, phosphates are .07, working on getting then down but been overfeeding lately i think. I wouldnt think .07 would be enough to **** everything iff though

Tripod1404 · 03/21/2018, 12:24 PM

Idealy Ca and carbonate (Alk) have equal consumption rates since both are used to make calium carbonate. In reality however,consumption rate of Ca is lower because carbonate is also incorporated with Mg and other elements to form minor components of coral skeleton. Plus calcifying algae might have a lot more Mg in their skeleton compared to corals.

IMO you should threat and dose them separately. Worst case you will continue dosing equivalent amount of Ca and Alk, you would just need to calculate the amount of Alk or Ca dosed in terms of mg, rather than volumes. Equal volumes is just an lazy way of doing this, rather than making the calculation. But if you always dose them at equal amounts and Ca is not consumed as fast, it can increase over time and cause precipitation.

crawlerman · 03/21/2018, 01:06 PM

My alk consumption is way higher than calcium. I dose my alk mixed in my ATO water and probably dose calcium every three weeks.

hkgar · 03/21/2018, 01:21 PM

What are your nitrates? If nitrates are closee to 0 than Alk would be better at 8.0 or a bit less.
You so not need to dose both calcium and alk at the same time. Only dose when the parameters falls below what you want. Your mag and sg are fine.

http://reef.diesyst.com/chemcalc/chemcalc.html
Test daily for awhile to determine your average daily consumption of alk..

RCS82 · 03/21/2018, 03:12 PM

Many people dose more Alk than they do calcium. Bring it up to 8 and you will be fine and bring up your water change water to match. Phosphates at .07 is fine too, if they stay there on their own then you have it made. Are you feeding your acans?

Xxxtremewv · 03/21/2018, 04:31 PM

Nitrates seem to sit about 15-20. And, for some reason, Ive never got them below that in the year and a half ive been at it. Kind of given up on worrying about that one as long as it doesnt get any higher. It literally has stayed constant. Even the phosphates really have always stayed give or take at .04 and .05, at the lowest Ive got .02 a couple times and the highest I have ever seen it is .08 a while back. So havent worried too too much about that one either. Its all been a pretty consistent fight, so I guess stability wise I must be doing something right?

I feed the acans usually 2-3 times a week, a mixture of reef roids and mysis shrimp and PE calinus (spelling?). There probably 10-12 different acans in there from frags to 15+ polyp colonies that have *always* been puffy and full and healthy looking, but here lately just about all of them are just kind of deflated looking. Not losing color (still vibrant as ever) but just dont have that full look. I can take pictures tonight if that would help, but I dont know how else to explain it

RobZilla04 · 03/21/2018, 04:48 PM

Nitrates and phosphates are fine. You can use baking soda (not ash) to raise the alk. There is a calculator on BRS website. Thus will save you from dipping into the two part stash and ending up with very different volumes of pt 1 and 2 right off the bat.

Once your numbers are where you want them you'll need to calculate consumption to determine daily dosing for both Alk and Cal. Totally normal to need more Alk than Cal when starting out dosing.

RCS82 · 03/21/2018, 04:50 PM

Sounds like you got things figured out, and 10 to 12 different acans is a nice collection. I'm sure you have them spread out along the bottom or sandbed like most. Is it possible to over feed? I only have a few small colonies of acans and feed about once a week.

Xxxtremewv · 03/21/2018, 05:20 PM

Yeah 7 or 8 of them were from a drunk night on ebay. always nice to wake up with a 300 dollar ebay order receipt in your email

Good deal, Ill start by doing the testing and keeping an eye on it. thanks for the information guys! so is 9 a good number to shoot for for alk im assuming?

ramseynb · 03/21/2018, 06:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RCS82

Sounds like you got things figured out, and 10 to 12 different acans is a nice collection. I'm sure you have them spread out along the bottom or sandbed like most. Is it possible to over feed? I only have a few small colonies of acans and feed about once a week.

My latest tank is still new but I've been feeding my acans once a week or every two weeks plus water they can catch when I feed the fish. I also dose ZEOvit LPS amino acid. They seem to be doing great! They usually have their feeder tentacles out, great coloration and there's a lot of little baby heads that have sprouted up. I would say feed as much as you want as long as they're looking good and your nutrient parameters are good.

ramseynb · 03/21/2018, 06:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xxxtremewv

Yeah 7 or 8 of them were from a drunk night on ebay. always nice to wake up with a 300 dollar ebay order receipt in your email

Good deal, Ill start by doing the testing and keeping an eye on it. thanks for the information guys! so is 9 a good number to shoot for for alk im assuming?

That's within a normal range. If you're carbon dosing and keeping SPS, I'd recommend keeping it lower. I'm carbon dosing but don't have any SPS yet but I shoot for around 7 dKH which is about what natural seawater is. I also use a salt mix that has lower alk so I'm not spiking alk every time I do a water change.

Just keeping alk stable and 7 or above is the most important thing IMO.

Xxxtremewv · 03/21/2018, 07:04 PM

Yeah they always seem to respond and a lot of the acans that started as 1 or 2 heads have 5 or 6+. And I havent changed anything else, so im kind of baffled as to why they are acting funny all of the sudden. Just going to keep on going and see what happens I guess

I do have a dual reactor with carbon and GFO

ramseynb · 03/21/2018, 07:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xxxtremewv

Yeah they always seem to respond and a lot of the acans that started as 1 or 2 heads have 5 or 6+. And I havent changed anything else, so im kind of baffled as to why they are acting funny all of the sudden. Just going to keep on going and see what happens I guess

I do have a dual reactor with carbon and GFO

Are you testing your phosphates? Using too much GFO could cause problems.

EDIT: Also, some of my acans started looking funny (retracted, not as puffy) when I had too much flow on them. I moved the powerhead and they're all back to normal.

Xxxtremewv · 03/22/2018, 12:40 PM

Hmm yeah ill have to look into that. I use the GFo from brs and only use what their clculator sys to use. I actully just got some highcoacity im going ti try this week

bertoni · 03/22/2018, 11:44 PM

For tanks with fairly low demand, water changes often are enough to keep both calcium and alkalinity in line. It's safe to dose only alkalinity as long as you track the calcium. The consumption rate is 2.8 dKH per 20 ppm of calcium, so it can take quite a while for the calcium to change much. It's also safe to dose both as a two-part, but the only upside for your situation would be less chance of letting the calcium drop accidentally. As long as you keep up a reasonable testing schedule, dosing alkalinity should be fine.

Phixman · 03/24/2018, 04:01 AM

Have you changed light fixtures lately?

Poopapotamus · 03/30/2018, 12:51 PM

I have been having a similar issue with keeping my alkalinity up. All other values are right where they should be, but I can not keep the alkalinity up, it is dipping below 7 in a day if I don't dose at least 10ml of a saturated solution. Calcium always remains at ~440 and Mag is high 1300's, and no detectable Phosphates and Nitrates. I am new to the hobby, so I only have a few Zoas, a hammer, torch, small Acan, small Scolly, and a large Wellso and two clowns (Percula and Black & White). Having said that, although I am new to reef aquariums, I am a research scientist with years of experience with testing in the lab. Any thoughts on what is happening to my alkalinity?
Tank: 108G drop off reef, with Eshopps RS-300 sump, Kessel A160W & A360W, 2x Jebao SW-8, and Apex controller

ramseynb · 03/30/2018, 01:05 PM

It doesn't sound like you have corals that would be causing the issue. Maybe if you had a tank full of SPS. Do you have a lot of coralline growth? I keep my alk at slightly over 7 dKH and it stays there and I have a couple of tiny SPS and many LPS, though they're mostly frags still. I do about 10-15% water change once a week. How often are you doing a water change?

Poopapotamus · 03/30/2018, 01:19 PM

Hey Ramseynb,
I don't have much coraline yet. basically just one medium seeder rock, the rest of my rock is still white (with some algae growth, but minimal). I am doing weekly water changes, but only 5gal at a time, but this seems enough to keep everything else in line. You can sort of see my tank in my Avatar pic.
Cheers

ramseynb · 03/30/2018, 01:23 PM

That's strange. Do you have a buildup of calcium on your heaters, pumps, etc? Maybe you could have your LFS test and make sure you're getting an accurate reading from your test kit.

outssider · 03/30/2018, 06:01 PM

I have had to dose from day one. In the beginning, dosing is very little, as corals grow and coralline algae begins, the dosing increases. Dosing requirements will increase quicker in the first several years and then the increasing will taper off somewhat. When your tank is full of sps and you decide to drastically cut everything back the dosing will decrease a lot and then the increasing will start all over again as the corals grow back. Don't under estimate how much alk/cal/mag coralline algae will suck up

Poopapotamus · 03/31/2018, 04:26 PM

I don't have any Calcium build-up in my tank of on any of my equipment. I had my LFS double check my water parameters as the first step. Everything was exactly what I had measured. He gave me the alkalinity additive to tied me over until mine arrives (don't know the brand as he just gave me little baggie of it, but it is what he uses to dose his frag tanks).
Outssider...I have an Apex DOS on the way, so I will start a regular dosing program as soon as it arrives. I just wanted to see if anyone had a explanation for why it is just my alkalinity I am having issue with and not the other factors?

outssider · 03/31/2018, 04:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Poopapotamus

why it is just my alkalinity I am having issue with

The Cal & Mag are being used too....your tests are not sensitive/precise enough to notice a change....

bertoni · 03/31/2018, 05:08 PM

I suspect that's right, but we would need some data to check that.

03/21/2018, 11:15 AM	#1
Xxxtremewv Registered Member Join Date: May 2016 Posts: 144	Alk question - So some of my acans have lost their puffiness and fullness these past couple weeks, so in my trek to figure out what the heck is going on, I am starting to come to the conclusion that alk may have something to do with it (I think). It looks like its been dipping down to 7 between water changes, so was thinking about starting to dose and get it to stay around 9. Now I have tried searching through dozens of thread and am finding conflicting answers, so figured Id just make a thread and ask. I am interpretting some threads to say you have to dose alk and calcium, not just alk by itself. Is that correct? My calcium stays about 430-440 and magnesium stays steady at 1380-1400, so I dont have any issues there right this moment. Salinity is 1.024-1.025. I actually bought a couple brs drews dosers here a while back and I have the equipment and jugs to do BRS 2-part dosing, so I have everything I need, but I dont want to go doing anything wrong from the start. Can I just dose alk safely? Thanks!

03/21/2018, 01:21 PM	#5
hkgar Registered Member Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Dewitt MI Posts: 5,051	What are your nitrates? If nitrates are closee to 0 than Alk would be better at 8.0 or a bit less. You so not need to dose both calcium and alk at the same time. Only dose when the parameters falls below what you want. Your mag and sg are fine. http://reef.diesyst.com/chemcalc/chemcalc.html Test daily for awhile to determine your average daily consumption of alk.. __________________ Gary 180 gallon, 40 gallon sump, 3 250 W MH + 4 80W ATI T5's, MTC MVX 36 Skimmer, Apex controller Aquamaxx T-3 CaRx Current Tank Info: A 2 Barred Rabbitfish, Red Head Salon, Yellow/Purple, McMaster Fairy, Possum, 2 Leopard Wrasses, Kole, & Atlantic Blue Tangs, 2 Percula Clown, 3 PJ and 1 Banggai Cardinalfish , Swallowtail, Bellus and Coral Beauty Angels

03/21/2018, 03:12 PM	#6
RCS82 Registered Member Join Date: Feb 2016 Location: Sherwood Park, AB, Canada Posts: 273	Many people dose more Alk than they do calcium. Bring it up to 8 and you will be fine and bring up your water change water to match. Phosphates at .07 is fine too, if they stay there on their own then you have it made. Are you feeding your acans? __________________ After about a 16 year break from fish keeping, Wow, how things have changed. Current Tank Info: 90g, mixed reef, I hope haha

03/21/2018, 04:48 PM	#8
RobZilla04 Registered Member Join Date: Sep 2016 Location: St. Augustine, FL Posts: 1,857	Nitrates and phosphates are fine. You can use baking soda (not ash) to raise the alk. There is a calculator on BRS website. Thus will save you from dipping into the two part stash and ending up with very different volumes of pt 1 and 2 right off the bat. Once your numbers are where you want them you'll need to calculate consumption to determine daily dosing for both Alk and Cal. Totally normal to need more Alk than Cal when starting out dosing. __________________ 90g Mixed Reef

03/21/2018, 04:50 PM	#9
RCS82 Registered Member Join Date: Feb 2016 Location: Sherwood Park, AB, Canada Posts: 273	Sounds like you got things figured out, and 10 to 12 different acans is a nice collection. I'm sure you have them spread out along the bottom or sandbed like most. Is it possible to over feed? I only have a few small colonies of acans and feed about once a week. __________________ After about a 16 year break from fish keeping, Wow, how things have changed. Current Tank Info: 90g, mixed reef, I hope haha

03/21/2018, 11:28 AM	#2
Xxxtremewv Registered Member Join Date: May 2016 Posts: 144	Forgot to mention, phosphates are .07, working on getting then down but been overfeeding lately i think. I wouldnt think .07 would be enough to **** everything iff though

03/21/2018, 12:24 PM	#3
Tripod1404 Registered Member Join Date: Mar 2016 Posts: 1,821	Idealy Ca and carbonate (Alk) have equal consumption rates since both are used to make calium carbonate. In reality however,consumption rate of Ca is lower because carbonate is also incorporated with Mg and other elements to form minor components of coral skeleton. Plus calcifying algae might have a lot more Mg in their skeleton compared to corals. IMO you should threat and dose them separately. Worst case you will continue dosing equivalent amount of Ca and Alk, you would just need to calculate the amount of Alk or Ca dosed in terms of mg, rather than volumes. Equal volumes is just an lazy way of doing this, rather than making the calculation. But if you always dose them at equal amounts and Ca is not consumed as fast, it can increase over time and cause precipitation.

03/21/2018, 01:06 PM	#4
crawlerman Registered Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Pittsburgh, PA Posts: 503	My alk consumption is way higher than calcium. I dose my alk mixed in my ATO water and probably dose calcium every three weeks.

03/21/2018, 04:31 PM	#7
Xxxtremewv Registered Member Join Date: May 2016 Posts: 144	Nitrates seem to sit about 15-20. And, for some reason, Ive never got them below that in the year and a half ive been at it. Kind of given up on worrying about that one as long as it doesnt get any higher. It literally has stayed constant. Even the phosphates really have always stayed give or take at .04 and .05, at the lowest Ive got .02 a couple times and the highest I have ever seen it is .08 a while back. So havent worried too too much about that one either. Its all been a pretty consistent fight, so I guess stability wise I must be doing something right? I feed the acans usually 2-3 times a week, a mixture of reef roids and mysis shrimp and PE calinus (spelling?). There probably 10-12 different acans in there from frags to 15+ polyp colonies that have always been puffy and full and healthy looking, but here lately just about all of them are just kind of deflated looking. Not losing color (still vibrant as ever) but just dont have that full look. I can take pictures tonight if that would help, but I dont know how else to explain it

03/21/2018, 05:20 PM	#10
Xxxtremewv Registered Member Join Date: May 2016 Posts: 144	Yeah 7 or 8 of them were from a drunk night on ebay. always nice to wake up with a 300 dollar ebay order receipt in your email Good deal, Ill start by doing the testing and keeping an eye on it. thanks for the information guys! so is 9 a good number to shoot for for alk im assuming?

03/21/2018, 07:04 PM	#13
Xxxtremewv Registered Member Join Date: May 2016 Posts: 144	Yeah they always seem to respond and a lot of the acans that started as 1 or 2 heads have 5 or 6+. And I havent changed anything else, so im kind of baffled as to why they are acting funny all of the sudden. Just going to keep on going and see what happens I guess I do have a dual reactor with carbon and GFO

03/22/2018, 12:40 PM	#15
Xxxtremewv Registered Member Join Date: May 2016 Posts: 144	Hmm yeah ill have to look into that. I use the GFo from brs and only use what their clculator sys to use. I actully just got some highcoacity im going ti try this week

03/22/2018, 11:44 PM	#16
bertoni RC Mod Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Mountain View, CA, USA Posts: 88,616	For tanks with fairly low demand, water changes often are enough to keep both calcium and alkalinity in line. It's safe to dose only alkalinity as long as you track the calcium. The consumption rate is 2.8 dKH per 20 ppm of calcium, so it can take quite a while for the calcium to change much. It's also safe to dose both as a two-part, but the only upside for your situation would be less chance of letting the calcium drop accidentally. As long as you keep up a reasonable testing schedule, dosing alkalinity should be fine. __________________ Jonathan Bertoni

03/24/2018, 04:01 AM	#17
Phixman Registered Member Join Date: Jan 2017 Location: Lynnwood, WA Posts: 176	Have you changed light fixtures lately?

03/30/2018, 12:51 PM	#18
Poopapotamus Registered Member Join Date: Dec 2016 Posts: 22	I have been having a similar issue with keeping my alkalinity up. All other values are right where they should be, but I can not keep the alkalinity up, it is dipping below 7 in a day if I don't dose at least 10ml of a saturated solution. Calcium always remains at ~440 and Mag is high 1300's, and no detectable Phosphates and Nitrates. I am new to the hobby, so I only have a few Zoas, a hammer, torch, small Acan, small Scolly, and a large Wellso and two clowns (Percula and Black & White). Having said that, although I am new to reef aquariums, I am a research scientist with years of experience with testing in the lab. Any thoughts on what is happening to my alkalinity? Tank: 108G drop off reef, with Eshopps RS-300 sump, Kessel A160W & A360W, 2x Jebao SW-8, and Apex controller

03/30/2018, 01:05 PM	#19
ramseynb Registered Member Join Date: Nov 2010 Location: New Braunfels, TX Posts: 630	It doesn't sound like you have corals that would be causing the issue. Maybe if you had a tank full of SPS. Do you have a lot of coralline growth? I keep my alk at slightly over 7 dKH and it stays there and I have a couple of tiny SPS and many LPS, though they're mostly frags still. I do about 10-15% water change once a week. How often are you doing a water change? __________________ How do you make an octopus laugh? Ten tickles!

03/30/2018, 01:19 PM	#20
Poopapotamus Registered Member Join Date: Dec 2016 Posts: 22	Hey Ramseynb, I don't have much coraline yet. basically just one medium seeder rock, the rest of my rock is still white (with some algae growth, but minimal). I am doing weekly water changes, but only 5gal at a time, but this seems enough to keep everything else in line. You can sort of see my tank in my Avatar pic. Cheers

03/30/2018, 01:23 PM	#21
ramseynb Registered Member Join Date: Nov 2010 Location: New Braunfels, TX Posts: 630	That's strange. Do you have a buildup of calcium on your heaters, pumps, etc? Maybe you could have your LFS test and make sure you're getting an accurate reading from your test kit. __________________ How do you make an octopus laugh? Ten tickles!

03/30/2018, 06:01 PM	#22
outssider Registered Member Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: Reseda, Ca. Posts: 1,717	I have had to dose from day one. In the beginning, dosing is very little, as corals grow and coralline algae begins, the dosing increases. Dosing requirements will increase quicker in the first several years and then the increasing will taper off somewhat. When your tank is full of sps and you decide to drastically cut everything back the dosing will decrease a lot and then the increasing will start all over again as the corals grow back. Don't under estimate how much alk/cal/mag coralline algae will suck up

03/31/2018, 04:26 PM	#23
Poopapotamus Registered Member Join Date: Dec 2016 Posts: 22	I don't have any Calcium build-up in my tank of on any of my equipment. I had my LFS double check my water parameters as the first step. Everything was exactly what I had measured. He gave me the alkalinity additive to tied me over until mine arrives (don't know the brand as he just gave me little baggie of it, but it is what he uses to dose his frag tanks). Outssider...I have an Apex DOS on the way, so I will start a regular dosing program as soon as it arrives. I just wanted to see if anyone had a explanation for why it is just my alkalinity I am having issue with and not the other factors? __________________ If your not part of the solution... Your part of the precipitate! Current Tank Info: 108G drop off reef, Eshopps RS-300 sump, Kessel A160W & A360W, 2x Jebao SW-8, Apex Controller

03/31/2018, 05:08 PM	#25
bertoni RC Mod Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Mountain View, CA, USA Posts: 88,616	I suspect that's right, but we would need some data to check that. __________________ Jonathan Bertoni