How do I lower my ALK?

[WI reefer55]

I want to begin dosing vodka. I read you ALK needs to be close to NSW if you are dosing vodka.

70 gal volume

15% water changes weekly with Instant ocean

ALK 9.3-9.6
PH 8.3
Nitrate 0
I dont have any other test kits

I would like to get it to 7.6

[bertoni]

If you stop dosing any alkalinity supplements, which includes pH buffers, the level should drop on its own fairly rapidly. Some people have tanks that are fine at your current dKH number, even with carbon dosing, but lowering the alkalinity should be fine, too.

What's the alkalinity of the IO used for changes?

[tmz]

I agree just stop dosing and it will fall. FWIW, I've been dosing vodka for 21 mos with alk at 9.5 to 10 dkh,PO4 ,.05ppm ,No3,.2ppm; sps and other corals do well. I'd try to monitor any drop closely ,since a rapid fall may be harmful.SPS do better with constant alkalinity, ime.

[WI reefer55]

Originally Posted by bertoni

If you stop dosing any alkalinity supplements, which includes pH buffers, the level should drop on its own fairly rapidly. Some people have tanks that are fine at your current dKH number, even with carbon dosing, but lowering the alkalinity should be fine, too.

What's the alkalinity of the IO used for changes?

Thats the problem. I dont dose anything. my ph is also high. I rly dont want to risk burning my sps.

Aquarium is lightly stocked thats why I dont have to dose



Im confused about your question what do you mean?

[Chris27]

Two ways to lower alk:

1.) Let nature run it's course, the coral / coraline algae will drop it as they build their skeleton.

2.) Water change, however the make up water needs to have an alk measurement much lower then the display.

[WI reefer55]

Thats my question

fresh salt water alk is 9.6

same as DT

I dont have enough coral or coralline to suck up the alk

[tmz]

You can choose a salt mix with lower alkalinity if you wish .Comparative information is available in the salt mix thread at the top of this forum.


Muriatic acid(34% HCL) will lower it. For each 0.123 ml of the muriatic acid added pr gallon of water the alkalinity will drop 1 dkh . This acid needs to be handle with care as the acid and it's fumes can harm you. For more details see this thread:

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/sh...=muriatic+acid

Be sure your sg measurements are accurate.

[njudson]

Originally Posted by WI reefer55

Aquarium is lightly stocked

If you don't mind me asking why do you want to dose Vodka? Shouldn't have much of a nutrient issue in a lightly stocked tank. Your water parameters seem pretty nice to me ... I'd be trying to keep them there

[tmz]

FWIW,Personally, with 0 nitate I don't see much benefit to dosing organic carbon like vodka ,either. If PO4 is high adsorbents like gfo might be a better course. Dosing with 0 nitrate may just lead to a buildup of organic carbon since the bacteria that consume it need the N and P as well. 9.6 alk sounds fine to me too.

[bertoni]

If you want to lower the alkalinity, the most practical way is to treat the water for changes with muriatic acid, to lower the alkalinity. That process is too dangerous to do to a running system, IMO. The problem is that muriatic acid is dangerous to handle. I would use gloves and goggles, most likely. You can tune the dose to match your salt. Just add a bit of acid, stir, and then check the alkalinity. I would start with an eyedropper.

If you have small children around, I'd suggest buying a low-alkalinity salt, but I'm the cautious sort.

[WI reefer55]

Awesome guys thats what I was looking for. I am going to try a different salt first I thought IO had the lowest levels.

I want to does vodka to rid my tank of cyno. If I go more than a couple days with out using my magfloat I cant see in my tank. BTW im running GFO but the algae just out competes it I guess using ro/di also.

Thanks

[tmz]

You are welcome.

[WI reefer55]

One more quick question

Will it be safe to lower my dt alk from 9.6 to 8.8 with a water change?

60 gal at 9.6
10 gals at 5 dkh after I add muricatic acid

total of 70 gal 8.8 after water change

Im goin to go the muricatic acid route what I am planing is a pretty big jump is my tank going to crash? or my SPS for that matter?

[tmz]

I don't think a drop of less than 1 dkh(9.6 to 8.8) will harm them but personally I wouldn't risk it with my sps.

[WI reefer55]

i am think about just adding the acid right in to the sump a little at a time.

anyone see any problems with that?

I know ill have to go real slow because of the ph drop and extra co2



people with heavy sps tanks drop 3 to 4 dkh through the course of a day

[bertoni]

Personally, I wouldn't dose muriatic acid into a running system, but people have done it.

[HighlandReefer]

If you must reduce your alk level in your display tank, I would do this by reducing the alk level in your water change mix. This will allow the CO2 to out-gas from your water change container & not in your tank (less change in pH in your DT). Also you can double check yourself by measuring the alk level & pH in your water change mixing tank before you add it to your display tank.

[HighlandReefer]

Another thing to keep in mind is that hobby grade alk test kits are not all that accurate. Some alk kits are designed for fresh water and can read 10% lower than the true alk level without taking into consideration other things in a reef tank that can interfere with alk kits producing results off from the true value. So a hobby grade alk kit reading can be off perhaps 2 dKH. If you push your tank level down to the lower end, perhaps your true alk level could be actually 6 dKH. This is a good reason to shoot for the middle of the recommended alk range of around 9 dKH.

If your tank occupants are doing fine at 9.6 dKH I don't see why adding carbon sources like vodka would cause problems. Perhaps there are other reasons for the problems with burnt tips when alk levels are changed? Personally I have not seen this while dosing carbon sources while maintaining alk levels between 7-16 dKH.

I have seen no testing in scientific literature regarding raising alk levels if they happen to be actually at around 6 dKH to start with. Perhaps when alk levels are low and they are raised this causes negative effects, I really don't know. There is scientific testing where they have raised alk levels when the true alk level was 7 dKH and no problems were reported up to about 23 dKH.

[WI reefer55]

Originally Posted by HighlandReefer

Another thing to keep in mind is that hobby grade alk test kits are not all that accurate. Some alk kits are designed for fresh water and can read 10% lower than the true alk level without taking into consideration other things in a reef tank that can interfere with alk kits producing results off from the true value. So a hobby grade alk kit reading can be off perhaps 2 dKH. If you push your tank level down to the lower end, perhaps your true alk level could be actually 6 dKH. This is a good reason to shoot for the middle of the recommended alk range of around 9 dKH.

If your tank occupants are doing fine at 9.6 dKH I don't see why adding carbon sources like vodka would cause problems. Perhaps there are other reasons for the problems with burnt tips when alk levels are changed? Personally I have not seen this while dosing carbon sources while maintaining alk levels between 7-16 dKH.

I have seen no testing in scientific literature regarding raising alk levels if they happen to be actually at around 6 dKH to start with. Perhaps when alk levels are low and they are raised this causes negative effects, I really don't know. There is scientific testing where they have raised alk levels when the true alk level was 7 dKH and no problems were reported up to about 23 dKH.

IDK why I even test

I heard the same thing. I am using salifert and I heard most of the time they test about 1 dkh higher from elos and others.

Because of everyone's recommendations I think Ill go ahead and try vodka with my dkh at 9.6 and see what happens.

I went to Homedepot this morning to get some murtiatic acid and the guy said they dont stock it because It can react with other chemicals up to 600ft away even when its in a bottle.. But I could smell the BS while in the car


Highland are you currently carbon dosing? What do you keep your alk at?

[HighlandReefer]

I dose vinegar at around 45 ml per 3 teaspoons of kalk per 1 gallon of rodi water in my top-off.

I like to keep my alk around 9 dKH for the reasons I noted above. If you figure the interference from calcium carbonate particles suspended in the water column + the interference from micro-organisms content of calcium carbonate + the margin of error in alk test kits + interference from high borate content in many salt mixes = most likely our alk is lower than we think by perhaps 1 - 2 dKH depending on all these factors. So I'm guessing my dKH may really be around 7-8 dKH which is a good zone.

[scubasteve06]

FWIW I only have a hammer in my tank and a couple zooanthids, but I can't keep my Nitrates below 40 and PO4 below .25 so I took the Reefkeeping article to a T bought a API Reef master test kit and started a log book of Ca, dkh, NO3, and PO4 as of today. I started my dose at .5ml at .25ml twice today. My dkh is currently 16, and I figured since I have no sps and hardly any corals at all that it couldn't do anything but good for my system since I have constantly battled high nitrate and phosphate. I currently have algae growing everywhere and have been battling an outbreak of cyano for 2 weeks now. TDS of top off water and water change water is 0 verified by my LFS handheld TDS meter and my inline meter coming out of my DI membrane. I do 20% water changes every 2 weeks and started doing 15% every week since the cyano outbreak. I can't see why vodka dosing would hurt me in my case only. Am I naive for thinking this?

Edit added: I currently only dose molybdenum and stronium every 4-5 days and 24 drops of Iodine daily. If I stop dosing the Iodine will my Alk go down? I just found out today that iodine will raise calcium. Is the iodine raising my alk? I am going to stop dosing everything and go ULNS and maybe might does amino's every week or two if I see my hammer start to decline.

Here are my current params

Ca 420-450
KH 16
NO3 40
PO4 .25
Ph 8.2
Mag 1350

[HighlandReefer]

How's your hammer & zoos doing?

Personally, I would run GFO to reduce your phosphate to below 0.03 ppm. Your at the upper end for possibly causing problems with coral from high phosphate levels. Coral don't seem to suffer as much as long as you can keep the nitrate below 40 ppm (preferably 30 ppm).

If you follow the proper dosing procedure for vodka, your nitrate will slowly reduce down to below 0.2 ppm which is what is recommended for sps. It may take several months to do this though.

As far as algae:


there are a lot of hobbyists in your same position. Reducing your nitrate and phosphate levels to a zero reading will help in getting rid of many type of algae pests. IME, reducing nitrate and phosphate levels too low can kill or cause problems for many types of coral. Running GAC & GFO will all help in reducing the growth of these type of pests. In many cases they will not eradicate the pest. Vodka dosing will help reduce the nitrate and phosphate levels also, but will not necessarily eradicate the pest either.

A common problem is being able to identify your pest to a category correctly: true algae, cyano, dino, bacteria & other assorted pests that look similar. In many cases a micro look at your pest is best to properly ID it to one of these categories.

IMHO, if you are faced with an algal type pest problem, it is best to implement an algae pest control program strategy:


1) Wet skimming with a good quality skimmer. Clean your skimmer cup at least once per week.

2) Reduce your nitrates and phosphates to a zero reading using the hobby grade test kits. See Randy's articles regarding this:

Phosphate and the Reef Aquarium
http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2006-09/rhf/index.php

Nitrate in the Reef Aquarium
http://www.advancedaquarist.com/issu...t2003/chem.htm

3) Proper lighting. I find that the higher wavelength bulbs are less conducive to algae growth. I now run 20,000 K bulbs from using 10,000 K bulbs.

4) Proper day length is a good thing also. I would not run your lights for more than 12 hrs total. Keep in mind that light entering from a window nearby is added to this figure.

5) Running GAC is a good practice in my book. It will help reduce the total dissolved organic carbons in your tank water and this is a food source.

6) Proper 30% per month total water changes will help export the DOC as well as some of the pests in the water column. It will help maintain the micro-nutrients as well.

7) Physical removal of the pest by hand, scrubbing and siphoning is important as well. If the amount of pest in your aquarium is overwhelming, perhaps dealing with one section at a time is a better idea.

8) Proper water circulation in your tank to prevent dead zones. When dealing with cyanobacteria pests increasing the flow where it grows seems to help.

9) Use RODI water for all top-off, salt mixing, additive mixes... etc.

10) Dosing iron may have benefits for macro-algae, but if you are experiencing algae pest problems than I would stop dosing it as it can add to the problem in many cases.

11) If you are dosing other supplements such as vitamins, amino acids, or others that contain a mix of supplements other than the basic alk., calcium and magnesium, I would stop these until you gain control of your pest. This includes many of the store bought products with unknown ingredients. Dosing Vodka or sugar to reduce your nitrates and phosphates would be an exception in my opinion.

12) Proper feeding habits. This can be the number one problem when trying to reduce your nitrate and phosphate levels. Use low phosphate fish foods.

13) IMHO, lighted refugiums may be a problem when trying to deal with an algae type pest problem. They are wonderful when it comes to reducing nitrates and phosphates. However, the light over most refugiums is conducive to the microalgae type pests. If the refugium becomes infested with a microalgae pest, I would clean it throughly of all pests as best as possible, remove the macro and turn off the lights until you gain control of your pest. Re-using the same macroalgae later may serve as a source for re-infestation of your pest.

14) Adding fish and other creatures that will eat your algae pest will help.

15) Running a diatom filter which has been suggested by Boomer, makes a lot of sense to me. It will help remove a lot of organic material in your water column.

16) For some additional thoughts regarding switching an algae based system to a bacterial based system see this thread:
(Using a carbon source with appropriate bacterial dosing may possibly help to push your system to where you want it although this is controversial.)

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/sh....php?t=1781320

17) There are other items that can be added to this list if others care too share and some of the items listed may be disputed.
____________________________________________________________________________________________________ _______


If after you have tried all these procedures and you are still loosing the battle, I would recommend that you initiate the use of AlgaeFix Marine based on the reports I have seen in this thread:

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/sh....php?t=1595003

[scubasteve06]

Originally Posted by HighlandReefer

How's your hammer & zoos doing? They are doing good with good polyp extension

Personally, I would run GFO to reduce your phosphate to below 0.03 ppm. Your at the upper end for possibly causing problems with coral from high phosphate levels. Coral don't seem to suffer as much as long as you can keep the nitrate below 40 ppm (preferably 30 ppm). As of right now I have two bags of carbon in my sump in a high flow area and I did have two bags of GFO in the same area but removed them earlier today when I started dosing vodka. I wasn't running GFO until a month ago when I first noticed the signs of cyano. After adding the water got much clearer, but no reduction in hair algae or cyano

If you follow the proper dosing procedure for vodka, your nitrate will slowly reduce down to below 0.2 ppm which is what is recommended for sps. It may take several months to do this though. I followed the reef keeping article to a T

As far as algae:


there are a lot of hobbyists in your same position. Reducing your nitrate and phosphate levels to a zero reading will help in getting rid of many type of algae pests. IME, reducing nitrate and phosphate levels too low can kill or cause problems for many types of coral. Running GAC & GFO will all help in reducing the growth of these type of pests. In many cases they will not eradicate the pest. Vodka dosing will help reduce the nitrate and phosphate levels also, but will not necessarily eradicate the pest either.
As said above I've been running GAC for the life of the tank(almost 8 months) and GFO for a month with no reduction in algae. I have actually seen more growing
A common problem is being able to identify your pest to a category correctly: true algae, cyano, dino, bacteria & other assorted pests that look similar. In many cases a micro look at your pest is best to properly ID it to one of these categories. I have not gone this far, but I can say that I my coraline has been overtaken and has turned brown, and I have green hair algae growing on the top most rocks in the tank

IMHO, if you are faced with an algal type pest problem, it is best to implement an algae pest control program strategy:


1) Wet skimming with a good quality skimmer. Clean your skimmer cup at least once per week. I skim in the middle not really wet but not really dry. Skim color is the color of coffe with cream

2) Reduce your nitrates and phosphates to a zero reading using the hobby grade test kits. See Randy's articles regarding this:

Phosphate and the Reef Aquarium
http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2006-09/rhf/index.php

Nitrate in the Reef Aquarium
http://www.advancedaquarist.com/issu...t2003/chem.htm

3) Proper lighting. I find that the higher wavelength bulbs are less conducive to algae growth. I now run 20,000 K bulbs from using 10,000 K bulbs.I use 3 ATI Aqua Blue Plus and one generic 10k bulb along with one 96w 420nm actinic VHO for dusk dawn lighting

4) Proper day length is a good thing also. I would not run your lights for more than 12 hrs total. Keep in mind that light entering from a window nearby is added to this figure.Lights are on as follows....10 a.m. VHO is on. 11 a.m. main lights are on. 6:30 p.m main lights off. 10:30 p.m. VHO is off. Maybe I'll cut back an hour on the main lights

5) Running GAC is a good practice in my book. It will help reduce the total dissolved organic carbons in your tank water and this is a food source.See above

6) Proper 30% per month total water changes will help export the DOC as well as some of the pests in the water column. It will help maintain the micro-nutrients as well.40% has been my norm, but I have bumped it up to 60% since cyano outbreak on substrate

7) Physical removal of the pest by hand, scrubbing and siphoning is important as well. If the amount of pest in your aquarium is overwhelming, perhaps dealing with one section at a time is a better idea. I remove as much as I can by siphoning off the sand bed

8) Proper water circulation in your tank to prevent dead zones. When dealing with cyanobacteria pests increasing the flow where it grows seems to help. I have 2 Koralia 1400's and my Mag 9.5 return for 28x turnover. I've been thinking about adding one more Koralia 1400 for added flow in the lower regions of the tank

9) Use RODI water for all top-off, salt mixing, additive mixes... etc.RO/DI used for all top-off and mixing. TDS tested with LFS hand held meter and my in-line meter to be at 0

10) Dosing iron may have benefits for macro-algae, but if you are experiencing algae pest problems than I would stop dosing it as it can add to the problem in many cases. I don't dose Iron, just Iodine daily and stronium/molybdenum every 4-5 days

11) If you are dosing other supplements such as vitamins, amino acids, or others that contain a mix of supplements other than the basic alk., calcium and magnesium, I would stop these until you gain control of your pest. This includes many of the store bought products with unknown ingredients. Dosing Vodka or sugar to reduce your nitrates and phosphates would be an exception in my opinion. See above

12) Proper feeding habits. This can be the number one problem when trying to reduce your nitrate and phosphate levels. Use low phosphate fish foods. I was feeding 3-4x daily, but have cut back to 2x daily since cyano outbreak. I rinse my cubes before feeding in RO/DI

13) IMHO, lighted refugiums may be a problem when trying to deal with an algae type pest problem. They are wonderful when it comes to reducing nitrates and phosphates. However, the light over most refugiums is conducive to the microalgae type pests. If the refugium becomes infested with a microalgae pest, I would clean it throughly of all pests as best as possible, remove the macro and turn off the lights until you gain control of your pest. Re-using the same macroalgae later may serve as a source for re-infestation of your pest. This is very interesting, as I figured that using a fuge to reduce NO4 and PO4 would have a direct effect on algae growth. I don't have to clean my fuge walls but once every week as hardly any algae grows there.

14) Adding fish and other creatures that will eat your algae pest will help. I did have two tangs (scopas and yellow) but was having territory issues so I have since traded them for store credit

15) Running a diatom filter which has been suggested by Boomer, makes a lot of sense to me. It will help remove a lot of organic material in your water column. I will read up on this, although I don't know where to get one besides the Deltec ones I have seen and they are a bit pricey, but what isn't in this hobby

16) For some additional thoughts regarding switching an algae based system to a bacterial based system see this thread:
(Using a carbon source with appropriate bacterial dosing may possibly help to push your system to where you want it although this is controversial.) Meaning Microbacter 7 or something along the likes?

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/sh....php?t=1781320

17) There are other items that can be added to this list if others care too share and some of the items listed may be disputed.
____________________________________________________________________________________________________ _______


If after you have tried all these procedures and you are still loosing the battle, I would recommend that you initiate the use of AlgaeFix Marine based on the reports I have seen in this thread:I will read it now

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/sh....php?t=1595003

Thanks for the possible solutions I really appreciate you taking the time to answer my questions. I've highlighted everything in red that I answered to your suggestions. Do you still think I am a good candidate for carbon dosing? I think I will continue on unless you think it will be detrimental to my system. Even though I say things are good with my few corals I've seen hammers on RC and thought I wish mine looked like that. If I quit dosing the Iodine will my alk come down?

[HighlandReefer]

Hair algae and cyano are two different organisms when trying to control them. AlgaeFix will not work on cyano, but it will work for many algae species (but not all).

Cyano is actually part algae and part bacteria. Cyano is capable of deriving its food from photosynthesis like algae and it can obtain nutrients like bacteria from organic matter. Algae needs phosphate, whereas cyano can utilize organic P instead of phosphate. So reducing phosphate levels for cyano will not work like for algae, but can help. For cyano you need to also reduce the organic P in your water collumn.

The bottom line is cyano is very tough to control and still keep other coral in your aquarium alive when you try to reduce nutrients in your water collumn to control it. Scrubbing and constantly removing it along with controlling nutrients seems to work best for cyano.

Some species of algae are tougher than others & can survive in quite low nutrient environments as well. Again scrubbing and removing the algae is a big part in controlling these tough algae species.

[scubasteve06]

Originally Posted by HighlandReefer

Hair algae and cyano are two different organisms when trying to control them. AlgaeFix will not work on cyano, but it will work for many algae species (but not all).

Cyano is actually part algae and part bacteria. Cyano is capable of deriving its food from photosynthesis like algae and it can obtain nutrients like bacteria from organic matter. Algae needs phosphate, whereas cyano can utilize organic P instead of phosphate. So reducing phosphate levels for cyano will not work like for algae, but can help. For cyano you need to also reduce the organic P in your water collumn.

The bottom line is cyano is very tough to control and still keep other coral in your aquarium alive when you try to reduce nutrients in your water collumn to control it. Scrubbing and constantly removing it along with controlling nutrients seems to work best for cyano.

I'm going to keep fighting it because I won't let anything but me take over my aquarium hehehe

I still would like to know if you have an opinion as to why my alk is so high? I use IO salt and as I said I only dose Iodine daily and stronium and molybdenum every 4-5 days. I am thinking about stopping the dosing all together to see what happens, but if you think it won't do anything then there would be no use in stopping it.