Need some details worked out

DaveWC · 08/12/2006, 07:13 AM

I'm in the planning stages on a 180g reef tank and have some questions I need answers to. I can see SPS in the distant future but not initially. Thanks for your time...

1. I will have a 48x20x16 sump/refugium/skimmer tank. That works out to about 65g. What size/brand/model return pump do you recommend? I will be splitting the flow from the tank to the refugium & skimmer section to avoid excessive current in the refugium.

2. I'm considering a Deltec APF-600 protein skimmer. Apparently the ideal flow rate through this skimmer is 210gph. It can be fed by overflow or from a separate pump. Is there any advantage to having a skimmer external or should I just plop it in the sump? I was thinking that a Mag 250 would be a suitable pump to feed this thing, is that reasonable or should it be plumbed from the tank overflow? If I plumb it then I have to get the return pump flow lower, I assume.

3. Closed loop or powerheads for tank current? The advantages of a closed loop seem to push me in that direction... no heat in the tank, takes no space (other then loc line or whatever I use), potentially quieter. I was planning on a Dolphin 4000/3000 pump to drive a closed loop. I've had Dolphin pumps in the past and they are workhorses and dead silent. Tunze powerheads look like great quality but they've got such a huge amount of current it seems overwhelming for a tank this size. And the 6060 models can't be run on a wavemaker. I figured I could put a scwd on the closed loop.

4. My house has central a/c and the tank will be in the basement which is always about 70ÂºF. I'm considering a 3x250 MH with actinic T-5s fixture. Do you think I'll need a chiller as well?

That's all I've got for now.

Avi · 08/12/2006, 07:53 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by DaveWC
1. I will have a 48x20x16 sump/refugium/skimmer tank. That works out to about 65g. What size/brand/model return pump do you recommend? I will be splitting the flow from the tank to the refugium & skimmer section to avoid excessive current in the refugium.

The particular pump you'd chose depends more on the capability of the overflow(s) than anything else. Find out what the maximum flow that the overflow(s) can handle and work from there.

Quote:

Originally posted by DaveWC
2.Is there any advantage to having a skimmer external or should I just plop it in the sump? I was thinking that a Mag 250 would be a suitable pump to feed this thing, is that reasonable or should it be plumbed from the tank overflow? If I plumb it then I have to get the return pump flow lower, I assume.

Having the skimmer external to the sump can have some advantages. One would be accessibility to the collection cup and the skimmer itself for cleaning. The more accessible, the more likely you are to keep it really clean and working properly. Also, having it external leaves more room in the sump for other things like other pumps and a larger refugium.

You can plump an overflow to the skimmer. Using unions and valves to get the right amount of flow to the skimmer will enable you to do that. You might find this tool helpful in determining which pump to use...head loss is important to your decision:

http://www.reefcentral.com/calc/hlc2.php

Quote:

Originally posted by DaveWC
3. Closed loop or powerheads for tank current? The advantages of a closed loop seem to push me in that direction... no heat in the tank, takes no space (other then loc line or whatever I use), potentially quieter. I was planning on a Dolphin 4000/3000 pump to drive a closed loop. I've had Dolphin pumps in the past and they are workhorses and dead silent. Tunze powerheads look like great quality but they've got such a huge amount of current it seems overwhelming for a tank this size. And the 6060 models can't be run on a wavemaker. I figured I could put a scwd on the closed loop.

First, an scwd uses up an enormous percentage of the available flow going though it so look into that. A lot of people are sorry that they use them for that reason.

Also, while closed loops are neat and may not take much room, be careful that you provide the tank with a broad, random flow, rather than single nozzles shooting out narrow forceful flow, which isn't optimal for the fish, coral, or live rock in your tank.

Quote:

Originally posted by DaveWC
4. My house has central a/c and the tank will be in the basement which is always about 70ÂºF. I'm considering a 3x250 MH with actinic T-5s fixture. Do you think I'll need a chiller as well?

It's hard to say. You'll get heat transfer from the pumps in your sump, lighting, etc. but an ambiant temperature of 70 degrees is quite low. If you want to significantly lower the likelihood of needing a chiller, look into these fixtures:

www.aquactinics.com

I have one and they are very effective in preventing heat transfer to your tank. I still got a chiller because of the ambiant heat in the room the tank is in, which, is a lot higher than where your tank will be.

That's all I've got for now. [/B][/QUOTE]

DaveWC · 08/12/2006, 10:09 AM

Quote:

The particular pump you'd chose depends more on the capability of the overflow(s) than anything else. Find out what the maximum flow that the overflow(s) can handle and work from there.

Ok, assume that there will be dual overflows with 1.5" pipe. What would be the next step in making the decision on the pump? I assumed either the tank volume or sump volume was the limiting factor in determining the pump flow.

Quote:

Also, while closed loops are neat and may not take much room, be careful that you provide the tank with a broad, random flow, rather than single nozzles shooting out narrow forceful flow, which isn't optimal for the fish, coral, or live rock in your tank.

Don't powerheads suffer from the same issue? Unless they are on some sort of wavemaker. It just seems that the higher end powerheads have so much flow and the lower end models can't be used on a wavemaker.

Thanks for your help.

TitansFan · 08/12/2006, 11:28 AM

Personally in making a decision on the pump I would not really try to match the overflow's max. On a 180 I assume you have 2
overflows both rated up to 600gph. I would not run 1200 gph through a sump. There is no need for that and it can slow down the performance of your skimmer. 2-5x total water volume is what I have seen recommended for sump flow.

As far as the deltec.. you will get your best performance from feeding it via an overflow plus one less pump to use. On my new tank I am plumbing my deltec this way. Here is a thread where I got help plumbing my deltec: http://reefcentral.com/forums/showth...hreadid=879674

On the closed loop I agree with Avi as far as not using a SCWD. I would have to disagree with the random flow not coming from a closed loop though. Check out http://www.oceansmotions.com
Great product for a random flow closed loop.

bertoni · 08/12/2006, 11:58 AM

I agree with the lower sump flow. Perhaps 500-600 gph.

One plus to having the skimmer in the sumps should be less worrying about overflows, etc.

A canopy with some fans should do well to keep the heat from the lighting under control.

You'll want a total of 1800 to 5400 gph per hour of flow. The lower end will be fine for soft corals. The Tunze Streams are very high quality pumps, and I'd definitely look at them for this system. The Seio pumps have some of the same flow characteristics, although they're not controllable.

Avi · 08/12/2006, 01:37 PM

I didn't mean to suggest that it's best to go to the maximum capability of the overflows and I should have been clearer on that. What I meant to say is that you are limited to that.

Traditional powerheads do create a narrow, forceful stream of water which isn't optimum. But there are alternatives to traditional powerheads...Like Bertoni mentions, the Tunzes and Seios are good alternatives. Seios are now offering, or will very shortly be offering controllers (http://reefcentral.com/forums/showth...5&pagenumber=3).

There are also the new Vortechs which are mounted on the side of the tank with a magnet and the motors are on the outside of the tank to prevent any heat transfer.

DaveWC · 08/13/2006, 10:34 AM

The tank + sump contents will be about 250g. So I'm thinking a Gen-x Mak4 pump should be reasonable for a return pump. How about a Tunze TS24 Turbelle Stream Pump Kit - 2 x 6100 Pump + 7095 Multi Controller for the tank? Is that going to be too much current or not?

bertoni · 08/13/2006, 02:56 PM

I think at full force that'd be a lot of flow, but when some alternating cycles, etc, are added, that should be fine for a high-current tank. I think the Tunze controllers also allow running the pump efficiently at partial output. The 6000 pumps would allow for a lot of animals, too, though. Personal choice. The 6100 pumps give a lot of headroom for Acropora and the like.

DaveWC · 08/13/2006, 03:19 PM

Thanks for that. For some reason I was thinking that the 6000's didn't work on the 7095. A much better fit I think.

08/12/2006, 07:13 AM	#1
DaveWC Premium Member Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Winnipeg, Canada Posts: 217	Need some details worked out I'm in the planning stages on a 180g reef tank and have some questions I need answers to. I can see SPS in the distant future but not initially. Thanks for your time... 1. I will have a 48x20x16 sump/refugium/skimmer tank. That works out to about 65g. What size/brand/model return pump do you recommend? I will be splitting the flow from the tank to the refugium & skimmer section to avoid excessive current in the refugium. 2. I'm considering a Deltec APF-600 protein skimmer. Apparently the ideal flow rate through this skimmer is 210gph. It can be fed by overflow or from a separate pump. Is there any advantage to having a skimmer external or should I just plop it in the sump? I was thinking that a Mag 250 would be a suitable pump to feed this thing, is that reasonable or should it be plumbed from the tank overflow? If I plumb it then I have to get the return pump flow lower, I assume. 3. Closed loop or powerheads for tank current? The advantages of a closed loop seem to push me in that direction... no heat in the tank, takes no space (other then loc line or whatever I use), potentially quieter. I was planning on a Dolphin 4000/3000 pump to drive a closed loop. I've had Dolphin pumps in the past and they are workhorses and dead silent. Tunze powerheads look like great quality but they've got such a huge amount of current it seems overwhelming for a tank this size. And the 6060 models can't be run on a wavemaker. I figured I could put a scwd on the closed loop. 4. My house has central a/c and the tank will be in the basement which is always about 70ÂºF. I'm considering a 3x250 MH with actinic T-5s fixture. Do you think I'll need a chiller as well? That's all I've got for now.

08/12/2006, 11:58 AM	#5
bertoni RC Mod Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Mountain View, CA, USA Posts: 88,616	I agree with the lower sump flow. Perhaps 500-600 gph. One plus to having the skimmer in the sumps should be less worrying about overflows, etc. A canopy with some fans should do well to keep the heat from the lighting under control. You'll want a total of 1800 to 5400 gph per hour of flow. The lower end will be fine for soft corals. The Tunze Streams are very high quality pumps, and I'd definitely look at them for this system. The Seio pumps have some of the same flow characteristics, although they're not controllable. __________________ Jonathan Bertoni

08/12/2006, 01:37 PM	#6
Avi Premium Member Join Date: Feb 2001 Location: Westchester County, NY Posts: 7,327	I didn't mean to suggest that it's best to go to the maximum capability of the overflows and I should have been clearer on that. What I meant to say is that you are limited to that. Traditional powerheads do create a narrow, forceful stream of water which isn't optimum. But there are alternatives to traditional powerheads...Like Bertoni mentions, the Tunzes and Seios are good alternatives. Seios are now offering, or will very shortly be offering controllers (http://reefcentral.com/forums/showth...5&pagenumber=3). There are also the new Vortechs which are mounted on the side of the tank with a magnet and the motors are on the outside of the tank to prevent any heat transfer. __________________ I'd keep the whole ocean if my den were big enough Current Tank Info: 120 gallon reef with 210 lbs. of live rock, Aqua-C EV180 Skimmer, Aquactinic double 250W MH with blue plus t5 support; 58 gallon freshwater planted tank using CO2 and T5s; 30-gallon cube with a few fancy goldfish; and a 110 gallon FOWLR

08/13/2006, 02:56 PM	#8
bertoni RC Mod Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Mountain View, CA, USA Posts: 88,616	I think at full force that'd be a lot of flow, but when some alternating cycles, etc, are added, that should be fine for a high-current tank. I think the Tunze controllers also allow running the pump efficiently at partial output. The 6000 pumps would allow for a lot of animals, too, though. Personal choice. The 6100 pumps give a lot of headroom for Acropora and the like. __________________ Jonathan Bertoni

08/12/2006, 11:28 AM	#4
TitansFan Registered Member Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Spring Hill, TN Posts: 1,364	Personally in making a decision on the pump I would not really try to match the overflow's max. On a 180 I assume you have 2 overflows both rated up to 600gph. I would not run 1200 gph through a sump. There is no need for that and it can slow down the performance of your skimmer. 2-5x total water volume is what I have seen recommended for sump flow. As far as the deltec.. you will get your best performance from feeding it via an overflow plus one less pump to use. On my new tank I am plumbing my deltec this way. Here is a thread where I got help plumbing my deltec: http://reefcentral.com/forums/showth...hreadid=879674 On the closed loop I agree with Avi as far as not using a SCWD. I would have to disagree with the random flow not coming from a closed loop though. Check out http://www.oceansmotions.com Great product for a random flow closed loop.

08/13/2006, 10:34 AM	#7
DaveWC Premium Member Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Winnipeg, Canada Posts: 217	The tank + sump contents will be about 250g. So I'm thinking a Gen-x Mak4 pump should be reasonable for a return pump. How about a Tunze TS24 Turbelle Stream Pump Kit - 2 x 6100 Pump + 7095 Multi Controller for the tank? Is that going to be too much current or not?

08/13/2006, 03:19 PM	#9
DaveWC Premium Member Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Winnipeg, Canada Posts: 217	Thanks for that. For some reason I was thinking that the 6000's didn't work on the 7095. A much better fit I think.