Reef Central Online Community

Go Back   Reef Central Online Community > General Interest Forums > Responsible Reefkeeping
Blogs FAQ Calendar Mark Forums Read

Notices

User Tag List

Reply
Thread Tools
Unread 06/26/2011, 04:48 PM   #1
JamOne1
Registered Member
 
JamOne1's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: Near Chicago
Posts: 5
Behind the scenes of a large wholesaler

I have worked at the LFS for over 15 years and wanted to share an experience I had at the largest fish wholesaler in the Chicagoland area in order to inform people on how fish are shipped. My coworker and I had gone to the wholesaler to pick out stock for the store. This is a warehouse-sized facility and we had finished and were waiting for our stock to be bagged, boxed and billed. As we were waiting the workers started wheeling out all these 30-50 gallon garbage cans into the aisles of holding tanks (2-3 cans per aisle). Then stacks of boxes were wheeled in. The workers opened the boxes and started sorting through them. With great speed they threw the bags of dead fish in the garbage and the live ones in the tanks. Most of the bags contained so little water the fish were swimming on their sides (water is heavy and costs a lot to ship). We were shocked that they would toss powder blue tangs and emperor angels into tanks like they were little beach balls. But the really horrifying part was how many bags of fish were immediately thrown into the garbage. Well over half the fish (enough to stock a second warehouse) were DOA. By the end, the garbage cans were full with dead saltwater fish. This was clearly just part of their routine. We were not supposed to be in there when they got their shipment in and the owner was livid that we saw this. I am still horrified that I am part of the reason this happens.


What can the hobbyist do?
1. Understand that the ocean is not a limitless pot of gold.
2. Buy captive bred fish and fragged corals.
3. Quarantine your stock (especially fish).
4. Do not accept high death rates from any seller-even if your money is guaranteed. If fish or coral died during shipping on an overnight ship then there is a problem with the seller, the packaging or the shipping company.
5. Do your research and buy within your capabilities . . .

and please share your knowledge!


JamOne1 is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 06/26/2011, 08:00 PM   #2
JMcAz7
Vanilla Ice Impersonator
 
JMcAz7's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Gilbert, AZ
Posts: 366
Thumbs up

Excellent post. Saltwater hobbyist make up a very small portion of the damage done to coral reefs worldwide, but we are also the first to see the impact done. Many species of corals and fish are now easily captive bred, and should be your first and only choice when available.

We aren't protecting the Earth for our children, we are only borrowing it from our grandchildren.


__________________
-Currently looking for the coolest Zoas I can find. :-)

-Pittsburgh Steelers fan until the day I die!

Current Tank Info: 24G JBJ Nano , 90G Sitting in the garage.
JMcAz7 is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 06/26/2011, 09:41 PM   #3
chrissreef
Registered Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Dallas
Posts: 1,252
"Many species of corals and fish are now easily captive bred" - umm, not on the fish side. Something like under 2-3% of saltwater ornamental fish are captive bred - the rest is WILD caught =( Basically... clownfish. Sure a few gobies/blennies/cardinals CAN be captive bred but aren't in any real numbers. All your tangs, angels, anthias, hawkfish, damsels, lionfish, puffers, butterflies etc. etc. are wild =(


__________________
One's standard of living is determined by the size of their reef
Learn and you continue to adapt, stop learning and you become obsolete
We live with each other, not for ourselves, protect our planet

Current Tank Info: 300g Starfire/Starboard A.G.E. mixed reef
chrissreef is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 06/26/2011, 10:17 PM   #4
JMcAz7
Vanilla Ice Impersonator
 
JMcAz7's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Gilbert, AZ
Posts: 366
chrissreef, I think you missed the point. I know that for every species of fish that is captive bred, 10 aren't. I'm not trying to debate you on numbers. The point is, as more responsible choices become available, the more responsible choice has to be made. New.species are being captive bred all the time. 30-40 years ago, the thought of keeping live corals and reef fish was considered impossible, but is now commonplace. New techniques and equipment are being developed all the time, and new species are being bred in captivity every day.

If we are careless and destructive with our hobby, what right do we have to practice it?

Thanks for trolling my response, BTW.


__________________
-Currently looking for the coolest Zoas I can find. :-)

-Pittsburgh Steelers fan until the day I die!

Current Tank Info: 24G JBJ Nano , 90G Sitting in the garage.
JMcAz7 is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 06/26/2011, 10:32 PM   #5
fauxjargon
Registered Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Posts: 12
Quote:
Originally Posted by JMcAz7 View Post
chrissreef, I think you missed the point. I know that for every species of fish that is captive bred, 10 aren't. I'm not trying to debate you on numbers. The point is, as more responsible choices become available, the more responsible choice has to be made. New.species are being captive bred all the time. 30-40 years ago, the thought of keeping live corals and reef fish was considered impossible, but is now commonplace. New techniques and equipment are being developed all the time, and new species are being bred in captivity every day.

If we are careless and destructive with our hobby, what right do we have to practice it?

Thanks for trolling my response, BTW.
This hobby is a luxury. It's easy to say "Well I buy captive raised whenever it's available" and then go buy the tang or angel or whatever that came out of the ocean and feel better, but really, why do you need that fish in the first place?

Granted, I don't need my ORA clowns or Dottyback either, but at least 5-6 other clowns/dottybacks did not die so I could have my fish... some probably did, just like in FW but the ratios are very different. What gives people the right to go to a LFS and buy a fish that lives in schools of hundreds and put it alone in a 90 gallon tank?


fauxjargon is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 06/26/2011, 10:46 PM   #6
Banjo
Registered Member
 
Banjo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Posts: 94
Thanks for sharing this. Unfortunately it's disgusting that they're treated this way. It really makes you wonder...


Banjo is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 06/27/2011, 01:47 PM   #7
JamOne1
Registered Member
 
JamOne1's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: Near Chicago
Posts: 5
Just to fix an omission, this happened about 7 years ago.


JamOne1 is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 06/27/2011, 01:57 PM   #8
billsreef
Moderator
10 & Over Club
 
billsreef's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 1999
Location: Long Island, NY/North Miami
Posts: 36,538
I find myself curious as to what wholesaler (feel free to PM me if you don't want to publicly disclose). A number of years ago I spent some time working for one of the big chains. For awhile they used a Chicago area wholesaler for the SW fish. The absolutely worst quality I've ever seen from a wholesaler.


__________________
Bill

"LOL, well I have no brain apparently. " - dc (Debi)

Current Tank Info: Far too many tanks according to my wife, LOL.
billsreef is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 06/27/2011, 03:46 PM   #9
Reef obcession
Registered Member
 
Reef obcession's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: stamford, Ct
Posts: 266
honestly I hate to hear about this type of collecting. Its really a shame some people dont care about only themselves and nothing else. This should be goverened to keep things in order. Yes it would raise the price of fish but so what. I believe we should do what ever we can do to prevent these types of acts. In water and on land


Reef obcession is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 06/27/2011, 09:17 PM   #10
flyhigh123
funky member
 
flyhigh123's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: Hacienda Heights (605 and 60 fwy)
Posts: 1,893
At least 50% die off from the wholesalers plus another 10% at the lfs.

Sad but true...


flyhigh123 is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 06/28/2011, 09:53 AM   #11
billsreef
Moderator
10 & Over Club
 
billsreef's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 1999
Location: Long Island, NY/North Miami
Posts: 36,538
The real shame of it is that it's totally unnecessary


__________________
Bill

"LOL, well I have no brain apparently. " - dc (Debi)

Current Tank Info: Far too many tanks according to my wife, LOL.
billsreef is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 06/28/2011, 10:15 AM   #12
coral_addict
Registered Member
 
coral_addict's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: san antonio, tx
Posts: 183
Quote:
Originally Posted by fauxjargon View Post
This hobby is a luxury. It's easy to say "Well I buy captive raised whenever it's available" and then go buy the tang or angel or whatever that came out of the ocean and feel better, but really, why do you need that fish in the first place?

Granted, I don't need my ORA clowns or Dottyback either, but at least 5-6 other clowns/dottybacks did not die so I could have my fish... some probably did, just like in FW but the ratios are very different. What gives people the right to go to a LFS and buy a fish that lives in schools of hundreds and put it alone in a 90 gallon tank?
On the other hand, if you buy only captive bred fish, then your angels and tangs and hawkfish won't ever be captive bred, because you have to keep them to breed them.


__________________
~~Gilbert~~
My fish have a pet human...

Current Tank Info: 28g mixed reef, slowly converting to SPS dominated w/ LED lighting
coral_addict is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 06/28/2011, 11:04 AM   #13
organism
code monkey
 
organism's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: south bay
Posts: 6,223
Quote:
Originally Posted by JamOne1 View Post
But the really horrifying part was how many bags of fish were immediately thrown into the garbage. Well over half the fish (enough to stock a second warehouse) were DOA. By the end, the garbage cans were full with dead saltwater fish. This was clearly just part of their routine. We were not supposed to be in there when they got their shipment in and the owner was livid that we saw this. I am still horrified that I am part of the reason this happens.
Wow, that's definitely not your typical wholesaler. The live arrival rate at wholesalers is over 80%, not 50%. The reason you're seeing 50% at that one is probably a combination of their cut rate suppliers and, more importantly, the fact that the corals passed through LA on their way to Chicago, adding an extra 8 or so hours onto their already extremely long commute.

All of the ones I've seen in LA drip acclimate the fish in species specific containers for about 30 or so minutes before putting them in their systems. Medications keep the subsequent die off low at 10%ish, but some fish have higher DOA's and others have less than 5% overall.

I agree 100% that hobbyists should only buy and demand captive raised fish from LFS if those species are available, it would make a huge change in the hobby siunce even an overall 70% death rate is way too high imo, so don't get me wrong that I'm not on the same page as you. Thing is though, you basically went backstage at the butcher shop to see the slaughterhouse, it may be a bit unsightly to visitors, and it might have been a really crappy slaughterhouse, but if you like meat, well, for the most part that's how it gets on your plate.


organism is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 06/28/2011, 11:52 AM   #14
jcw
Registered Member
 
jcw's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: elmhurst, il
Posts: 1,778
Quote:
Originally Posted by JamOne1 View Post
Just to fix an omission, this happened about 7 years ago.
????


__________________
I don't think Coral can live very long under Sun light. It's too yellow. ...get yourself some LED's.

-eznet2u

Current Tank Info: 125g DT, custom 30g sump, ATB elegance, eheim 1260, mp40 (too many failed wetsides), gyre 150 (love it)
jcw is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 06/28/2011, 12:23 PM   #15
MHG
Registered Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Posts: 2,919
Well 3rd world Nation indigenous collectors get paid, importers get paid, wholesalers get paid, LFS and Internet retailers get paid, and we pay them. Cocaine (I mean Reefing) is a horrible addiction and our addiction feeds that industry like the drug lords. Well we are on our way to shutting down almost every LFS because the internet killed them, so all we can do is buy clowns and frags from the internet. Otherwise we will continue to feed the monster...


There are two kings of businessmen (women) who take from the earth bounty. Those who deal in the shadows and those who understand that this is a crop and like all natural crops you must selective harvest. The lumber business has for the most part figured that out and thus we have mega young growth tree farms for engineered lumber. But our appetite for exotic wood furniture will necessitate selective harvesting.

As long as the majority of coral reefs are in corrupt third world nations we will continue to over harvest and the results are bad. Governments can license harvesters/collectors to control the harvest or the consuming countries can have laws that govern the importation like with exotic birds but there will always be some guy willing to pay some local tribesman to throw some colorful fish in a bag. Thus it is sumple supply and demand. We demand it, they supply it.


__________________
MHG (LIRA Member)
60G Cube, Kessil 360's
MHG is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 06/28/2011, 01:11 PM   #16
jeff@zina.com
Registered Member
 
jeff@zina.com's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Naples, FL
Posts: 3,345
Quote:
Originally Posted by flyhigh123 View Post
At least 50% die off from the wholesalers plus another 10% at the lfs.
Actually, one estimate is 90% between collection and 1 month in a customer's tank. Frankly, if it bothers anyone that much they should get out of the hobby and just visit public aquariums. The wholesalers in Miami don't lose as many on incoming shipments as the OP described, but it's not a minimal amount either.

Jeff



Last edited by jeff@zina.com; 06/28/2011 at 01:58 PM.
jeff@zina.com is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 06/28/2011, 01:37 PM   #17
MHG
Registered Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Posts: 2,919
Quote:
Originally Posted by jeff@zina.com View Post
Actually, the estimate is 90% between collection and 1 month in a customer's tank. Frankly, if it bothers anyone that much they should get out of the hobby and just visit public aquariums.

Jeff
Right on...


__________________
MHG (LIRA Member)
60G Cube, Kessil 360's
MHG is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 06/28/2011, 09:52 PM   #18
fauxjargon
Registered Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Posts: 12
Quote:
Originally Posted by coral_addict View Post
On the other hand, if you buy only captive bred fish, then your angels and tangs and hawkfish won't ever be captive bred, because you have to keep them to breed them.
Well, yes, you have a point that the only reason it is possible to buy ORA fish is because the wild caught fish started the interest in keeping these fish in aquariums in the first place.

Who says that angels, tangs and hawkfish really should be kept in captivity - I am not opposed to fishkeeping (or reptile, bird, whatever keeping) - I have a FW tank and a SW tank and I don't think I'm a hypocrite.

This goes as much for FW as it does for SW: Some fish live in large groups and have incredible amounts of swimming space in nature. Some fish do not.

I'm not saying that the 10 dollar Bala shark (14") is in any way worse or better than an expensive tang, triggerfish or angelfish - neither of them really belong in aquaria, unless the aquariums are very large. Big public tanks (or very rich people I guess) with massive tanks can and should keep these fish so that people can appreciate them. But when you are at the LFS, instead of picking up two bala sharks, why not get two Bolivian Rams? They cost about the same and will actually behave naturally (courtship, spawning, raising young) in your tank whereas the bala sharks will not do so well, especially as they get big.

I might be somewhat jaded by working at the LFS, but I see very little difference between the customer who takes home a tang, puts it in his tank and kills it through bad water or nutrition and the customer who comes in and does the same thing to a goldfish in a bowl. Except the guy with the big saltwater tank is spending more money on his hobby and he should know better.

Call me a skeptic, but is ORA even working on breeding tangs? I know there was some work done with angelfish and I have no idea about hawkfish.

If you must put wild caught animals in your fish tanks (like I did with hermits and probably snails), at least choose ones that do well in captivity and do not have a lifestyle that is clearly not well adapted to life in a glass box.


fauxjargon is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 06/28/2011, 10:00 PM   #19
Caesra
Registered Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: Rockford, IL
Posts: 249
Quote:
Originally Posted by billsreef View Post
The real shame of it is that it's totally unnecessary
The real shame is it is true, but then you reflect on the mentality regarding life and you wind up at threads where people discuss just how cheap they can get things.


We basically get two choices, spend your money responsibilyly with people who are reponsible, or spend your money on the cheapest. The worst part of those choices, is those who are responsible tend to take advatage of their scenarios to gouge people.

I have consulted for a great many companies over alot of years and there is nothing unique about this post. Business has nothing to do with responsability. They exist to make money. Low cost, high profit. If you walk into a hospital and think it is about being cared for, you are as sadly mistaken as the fish in that dead barrel.

This is the world we have built, and we have to decide to unbuild it.


Caesra is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 06/28/2011, 11:19 PM   #20
organism
code monkey
 
organism's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: south bay
Posts: 6,223
Quote:
Originally Posted by Caesra View Post
The real shame is it is true, but then you reflect on the mentality regarding life and you wind up at threads where people discuss just how cheap they can get things.


We basically get two choices, spend your money responsibilyly with people who are reponsible, or spend your money on the cheapest. The worst part of those choices, is those who are responsible tend to take advatage of their scenarios to gouge people.

I have consulted for a great many companies over alot of years and there is nothing unique about this post. Business has nothing to do with responsability. They exist to make money. Low cost, high profit. If you walk into a hospital and think it is about being cared for, you are as sadly mistaken as the fish in that dead barrel.

This is the world we have built, and we have to decide to unbuild it.
Great post!


organism is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 06/29/2011, 05:06 AM   #21
doublenerds
Registered Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Posts: 63
Quote:
Originally Posted by MHG View Post
As long as the majority of coral reefs are in corrupt third world nations we will continue to over harvest and the results are bad.
OK, veering slightly off-topic here but I think it's important when discussing ethical practices to avoid racist finger-pointing.

I urge you to think a bit more carefully before attributing the characteristics of corrupt governance only to developing nations. I'm pretty sure that Indonesia didn't facilitate a worldwide financial crisis through the practice of highly unethical, government-endorsed sub-prime mortgage lending and repackaging. That would be the "uncorrupt" Unites States that did that.

We're also the ones that are sitting still while oil companies enjoy some of the highest profits in history and consumer gas prices rise to astronomical levels. It's not the Phillipines that refused to even consider cutting billions of dollars of taxpayer incentives currently given to American oil companies...that would our US Senate (well, the Republicans anyway) that did that.

Where there are people holding power, there is corruption. If you think "first world" countries hold some special status in this regard, then you are sadly mistaken.


doublenerds is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 06/29/2011, 06:53 AM   #22
doublenerds
Registered Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Posts: 63
I can't edit my message above, or I would change my first sentence. I did not mean to accuse anyone of being a racist. What I'm really trying to get at is that corruption is not the province of the poor....developed nations are probably much, much worse in many ways.


doublenerds is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 06/29/2011, 05:09 PM   #23
MHG
Registered Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Posts: 2,919
Quote:
Originally Posted by doublenerds View Post
I can't edit my message above, or I would change my first sentence. I did not mean to accuse anyone of being a racist. What I'm really trying to get at is that corruption is not the province of the poor....developed nations are probably much, much worse in many ways.
Thanks, you almost had my hat fall of there... I did say most reefs in 3rd world. not all third worlds are corrupt. I will not respond to the politics to keep the moderators happy...


__________________
MHG (LIRA Member)
60G Cube, Kessil 360's
MHG is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 06/29/2011, 06:51 PM   #24
JamOne1
Registered Member
 
JamOne1's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: Near Chicago
Posts: 5
I don’t see how anyone could claim to appreciate the reef out one side of their mouth (an assumption, granted) and accept a 90% mortality rate out the other. I list 3 ways to minimize the risk of loss: buying fragged corals and tank bred fish and purchasing within one’s abilities (i.e. buy a strawberry basslet instead of an achilles tang). None of these require a love it or leave it attitude toward the hobby.

That being said, saltwater fish have to be one of the most difficult things to ship (alive).To be fair, I know the wholesaler I referenced above has made improvements to their facility and my coworker has said he has a couple shipments arrive recently with much lower losses (he still buys from them, I don't). They seem to have opted toward responsibility. However, that day has made its mark and I am very wary about my fish purchases. I like organism’s slaughterhouse reference: I saw my hamburger get slaughtered and now I am not so hungry.

I hope wholesalers and collectors have websites like this to help each other, because they have as much room for improvement as we do.



Last edited by JamOne1; 06/29/2011 at 07:27 PM. Reason: accuracy
JamOne1 is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 06/29/2011, 08:20 PM   #25
Fish Biscuit
Registered Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: Chicago
Posts: 1,164
I work in freight forwarding & some of it has do to do with the routing of the shipment. The good airlines are never cheap & some people would rather save $2 or $3 per kg to use a crap airline with multiple stops & arrival 5 days after departure than pay the extra $$ & possibly have your cargo within 24 to 36 hours after departure. The airlines allow your perishables & live animals to be tendered closer to the departure time & that is the first cargo off the plane, usually available for pick up within a few hours of landing.

Until everything can be captive bred this will be part of the problem, the solution is to buy from responsible people & not some bum trying to make a quick buck.


Fish Biscuit is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
My first large tank, what do I need to know? Dante_JoseCuerv Large Reef Tanks 17 04/26/2010 01:14 AM
large naso tang for sale atlantisaquari Alabama Reef Addicts 12 04/15/2010 07:57 PM
WTB Large Sump Jboulerice Florida Marine Aquarium Society (FMAS) - Miami/Ft. Lauderdale 2 02/24/2010 11:50 AM


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 08:24 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Powered by Searchlight © 2024 Axivo Inc.
Use of this web site is subject to the terms and conditions described in the user agreement.
Reef CentralTM Reef Central, LLC. Copyright ©1999-2022
User Alert System provided by Advanced User Tagging v3.3.0 (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2024 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.