How to avoid Phytoplankton crashes - Page 3

Joey French · 11/17/2004, 08:19 AM

I have not tried to start a culture with dts, but I am fairly certain you can start with it, but it will become a monoculture.

How big of a deal is over-fertilizing? Could a few drops extra make that big of a difference?

rsman · 11/17/2004, 11:13 AM

DTs... What's the worst that can happen -- it'll crash?
yep thatll be the worst thing, the reason I said you might stay away from it, instead of saying you cant, but there is a chance YOU cant

but might be an equal chance one of the other algaes will take over, and YOU might be able to culture that.

you can buy a running culture from many ppl on RC cheap.

How big of a deal is over-fertilizing? Could a few drops extra make that big of a difference?
generally no, it could cause the culture to grow to fast

Haggisman14 · 03/21/2005, 10:56 PM

This might sound stupid to you that have been culturing for a long time...but how do u keep the temp of the bottles around 78-80 degrees....does having the light close enough to the bottles keep it warm?

I'm thinking of starting my own culture to feed my tank.

Are there visible differences in the "happiness" of your tank when you feed phyto, compared to when you don't. Also does feeding phyto and rotifiers go hand in hand...r rotifiers kinda like pods more or less? Thanx.

Marc

rsman · 03/22/2005, 12:00 AM

first off most algaes we grow intentionally dont do that well at 78-80F most do best between 70 and 74

as for how to keep them that way, an easy way is to put your bottles in a tank with a heater, but its anoying so adjusting the distance from lights and stuff works good also

rotifers are small plantonic inverts they use phyto plankton for food, many corals eat rotifers, phyto also gives food to copepods, amphipods ciliates all of which corals and fish eat

PrivateJoker64 · 04/14/2005, 05:39 PM

I have doubts about using tap water. My house is plumbed with copper pipe, as so many are. Can the copper become an issue in the tank?

melev · 04/14/2005, 07:42 PM

I would say no.

PrivateJoker64 · 04/14/2005, 09:33 PM

Thanks, Marc. I'm going to give it a try.
Nice website, BTW.

melev · 04/14/2005, 10:08 PM

Thanks.

nickb · 04/15/2005, 05:01 AM

Randy Holmes-Farley has raised concerns with copper levels in tap water, mainly associated with copper pipe. This article discusses the isuse (about half-way through):

http://www.advancedaquarist.com/issues/jan2004/chem.htm

rsman · 04/15/2005, 11:37 AM

that article doesnt really apply to this as much as inverts, the issue is that algaes use copper, whats missing is how much copper can they use vs how much do you have, and how much does your fertilizer have. any more and you get copper in your water, and not enough means unreliable results its one reason to always use specifically prepared fertalizers

nickb · 04/15/2005, 04:11 PM

Sorry, I misunderstood the original comment. Back to lurking :-)

PrivateJoker64 · 04/15/2005, 04:33 PM

My concern is not the copper killing the phyto, but the copper build-up in the reef tank. After reading that article about the possible higher levels of copper, I think I will stick with using RO-DI water, plus the recommended additions of fertilizer and trace elements. Fingers crossed!

melev · 04/15/2005, 05:31 PM

I think that RO/DI water lacks the nitrates and such that phyto needs. Keep in mind that I crashed a lot of cultures before using RO/DI, so you might have the same problem.

If you are overly concerned about copper in the water, test your source water. Turn on the faucet, let it run a minute, then use the fresh water instead, rather than water sitting in the pipes for a duration.

PrivateJoker64 · 04/15/2005, 10:31 PM

Yes, the RO-DI does lack everything, but isn't that the reason for adding Kent Trace Elements and fertilizer as you suggested?
Like you, I used to do fine with RO-DI and FAF fertilizer, but then the cultures started crashing, and I gave up in disgust. I'm going to give it another try using Miracle Grow and Kent trace elements as you suggested.
BTW, Phyto Feast is raw sewage, as near as I can tell. Stay away from it!

PrivateJoker64 · 04/15/2005, 10:34 PM

Also, I just tried to sterilize an empty 2-liter bottle in the microwave by putting a little water in it and laying it in the mw on its side with the top off the bottle. I succeded in melting down the bottle. I'm sure it's sterile now, but it's also flat.
LOL

melev · 04/15/2005, 10:56 PM

I decided to not go that far with sterilization. I've used very hot water, vinegar and water, and even bleach and water. Now what I tend to do is rinse the bottle out well, and leave it open in the garage to dry out until I finally need it. That seems to help even though technically anything could crawl in there. However, there is no smell of the previous beverage in the bottle doing it this way, and my cultures haven't crashed any more.

At our recent meeting, two people asked me to bring them a bottle full. Another member came up to me and stated that his was darker. I joked that mine was much darker, and he suggested we have a competition. It was all in good humor, because neither of us even showed the other their culture. Later, one of the recipients of my culture told me mine was much darker and the other guy had to concede.

I'm really not like that, and didn't pursue the competition, but I am glad that I can actually grow this stuff successfully again, finally!

moumda · 04/16/2005, 07:32 AM

I use the water change water from my tank and boil it making sure it gets to at least 160 deg f. I was culturing with 2 liter pop bottles but have switch to glass wide mouth 1 gallon jars and am having much better luck. Use FAF F2 fertilizer 2 ml per bottle and start new culture with 1/4 gallon from old culture. Glass needs to be cleaned with muric acid every other batch. Date my cultures and never let them go more than 1 week. Have 5 gallons going at once and supply local club with phyto they need ($2 for 16 oz bottle and $8 for 2 liters). Forces me to do water changes in my tank and keeps me in frags at local club meetings.

WaterKeeper · 04/16/2005, 07:45 AM

About a tablespoonful of bleach in a 2 liter bottle left for about 30 minutes should disinfect the bottle in most cases. Rinse it well and let it dry to make sure it is free of chlorine residuals. Don't use declor on the bottle as it may have bacteria in it if it has been stored for any amount of time.

If doing the microwave trick don't put water in the bottle. Just microwave it for about a minute dry. The micro-organisms you wish to eliminate already have water in their cell structure and it will boil during microwaving and kill them. I think the steam is what melted your bottle as I tried this with a dry bottle and it made it through the process fine.

PrivateJoker64 · 04/16/2005, 02:15 PM

Yeah, I'm sure it was the steam.
I thought it was bad to run your microwave without something in it to absorb the energy. Do you put a cup of water in there with the bottle?

Kathy55g · 04/16/2005, 04:59 PM

So Mark, what did you do differently that led to your recent success?
Thanks,
Kathy

melev · 04/16/2005, 06:51 PM

Kathy, when you read this page, look at the section dated 1-20-05 for the new method that works. My cultures have been bubbling for 3 weeks straight, and are long overdue to split. I just haven't done it. I'll do it tonight though.

http://www.melevsreef.com/phytoplankton.html

Kathy55g · 04/16/2005, 08:07 PM

Thanks Mark.

DrBDC · 04/28/2005, 09:04 PM

Waterkeeper, my gallons only hold 3.78 liters too! I think we're getting ripped off at the pumps!

WaterKeeper · 04/28/2005, 11:40 PM

I heard they really get ripped off in Canada. The gallons there are only 3.153 liters.

nickb · 04/29/2005, 04:49 AM

Actually, an imperial gallon is larger than a US gallon and works out to about 4.5 liters per gallon.

The US and imperial volume measures are strangely different. According to this web site (http://www.bartleby.com/61/charts/M0182500.html), the 'fl oz' has a different volume in the two systems. In the US system, a fl oz is 29.57 ml while in the imperial system, it is 28.41 ml (i.e. the US fl oz is about 4% larger.). I think most people just ignore this but, for percise measurements, it can become important. Of course, for precise measurement and scientific purposes, we should also use metric measures which have a universal meaning.

More than anyone needs to know :-)

11/17/2004, 11:13 AM	#52
rsman Registered Member Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Calhoun, Mo. USA Posts: 2,239	DTs... What's the worst that can happen -- it'll crash? yep thatll be the worst thing, the reason I said you might stay away from it, instead of saying you cant, but there is a chance YOU cant but might be an equal chance one of the other algaes will take over, and YOU might be able to culture that. you can buy a running culture from many ppl on RC cheap. How big of a deal is over-fertilizing? Could a few drops extra make that big of a difference? generally no, it could cause the culture to grow to fast __________________ smile its all good

03/21/2005, 10:56 PM	#53
Haggisman14 Registered Member Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: North Carolina Posts: 1,227	This might sound stupid to you that have been culturing for a long time...but how do u keep the temp of the bottles around 78-80 degrees....does having the light close enough to the bottles keep it warm? I'm thinking of starting my own culture to feed my tank. Are there visible differences in the "happiness" of your tank when you feed phyto, compared to when you don't. Also does feeding phyto and rotifiers go hand in hand...r rotifiers kinda like pods more or less? Thanx. Marc __________________ Marc Current Tank Info: Oceanic Biocube 29 Gallon, Kessil A160WE LED Light, inTank Media Basket w/Chemipure/Purigen combo

03/22/2005, 12:00 AM	#54
rsman Registered Member Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Calhoun, Mo. USA Posts: 2,239	first off most algaes we grow intentionally dont do that well at 78-80F most do best between 70 and 74 as for how to keep them that way, an easy way is to put your bottles in a tank with a heater, but its anoying so adjusting the distance from lights and stuff works good also rotifers are small plantonic inverts they use phyto plankton for food, many corals eat rotifers, phyto also gives food to copepods, amphipods ciliates all of which corals and fish eat __________________ smile its all good

04/14/2005, 05:39 PM	#55
PrivateJoker64 Moved On Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: Huntington, WV Posts: 1,145	Reviving the thread. I have doubts about using tap water. My house is plumbed with copper pipe, as so many are. Can the copper become an issue in the tank?

04/15/2005, 11:37 AM	#60
rsman Registered Member Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Calhoun, Mo. USA Posts: 2,239	that article doesnt really apply to this as much as inverts, the issue is that algaes use copper, whats missing is how much copper can they use vs how much do you have, and how much does your fertilizer have. any more and you get copper in your water, and not enough means unreliable results its one reason to always use specifically prepared fertalizers __________________ smile its all good

11/17/2004, 08:19 AM	#51
Joey French Registered Member Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Columbia,S.C. Posts: 114	I have not tried to start a culture with dts, but I am fairly certain you can start with it, but it will become a monoculture. How big of a deal is over-fertilizing? Could a few drops extra make that big of a difference?

04/14/2005, 07:42 PM	#56
melev Moved On Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Ft Worth, Tx Posts: 43,217	I would say no.

04/14/2005, 09:33 PM	#57
PrivateJoker64 Moved On Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: Huntington, WV Posts: 1,145	Thanks, Marc. I'm going to give it a try. Nice website, BTW.

04/14/2005, 10:08 PM	#58
melev Moved On Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Ft Worth, Tx Posts: 43,217	Thanks.

04/15/2005, 05:01 AM	#59
nickb Registered Member Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: Ottawa, Canada Posts: 678	Randy Holmes-Farley has raised concerns with copper levels in tap water, mainly associated with copper pipe. This article discusses the isuse (about half-way through): http://www.advancedaquarist.com/issues/jan2004/chem.htm

04/15/2005, 04:11 PM	#61
nickb Registered Member Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: Ottawa, Canada Posts: 678	Sorry, I misunderstood the original comment. Back to lurking :-)

04/15/2005, 04:33 PM	#62
PrivateJoker64 Moved On Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: Huntington, WV Posts: 1,145	My concern is not the copper killing the phyto, but the copper build-up in the reef tank. After reading that article about the possible higher levels of copper, I think I will stick with using RO-DI water, plus the recommended additions of fertilizer and trace elements. Fingers crossed!

04/15/2005, 05:31 PM	#63
melev Moved On Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Ft Worth, Tx Posts: 43,217	I think that RO/DI water lacks the nitrates and such that phyto needs. Keep in mind that I crashed a lot of cultures before using RO/DI, so you might have the same problem. If you are overly concerned about copper in the water, test your source water. Turn on the faucet, let it run a minute, then use the fresh water instead, rather than water sitting in the pipes for a duration.

04/15/2005, 10:31 PM	#64
PrivateJoker64 Moved On Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: Huntington, WV Posts: 1,145	Yes, the RO-DI does lack everything, but isn't that the reason for adding Kent Trace Elements and fertilizer as you suggested? Like you, I used to do fine with RO-DI and FAF fertilizer, but then the cultures started crashing, and I gave up in disgust. I'm going to give it another try using Miracle Grow and Kent trace elements as you suggested. BTW, Phyto Feast is raw sewage, as near as I can tell. Stay away from it!

04/15/2005, 10:34 PM	#65
PrivateJoker64 Moved On Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: Huntington, WV Posts: 1,145	Also, I just tried to sterilize an empty 2-liter bottle in the microwave by putting a little water in it and laying it in the mw on its side with the top off the bottle. I succeded in melting down the bottle. I'm sure it's sterile now, but it's also flat. LOL

04/15/2005, 10:56 PM	#66
melev Moved On Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Ft Worth, Tx Posts: 43,217	I decided to not go that far with sterilization. I've used very hot water, vinegar and water, and even bleach and water. Now what I tend to do is rinse the bottle out well, and leave it open in the garage to dry out until I finally need it. That seems to help even though technically anything could crawl in there. However, there is no smell of the previous beverage in the bottle doing it this way, and my cultures haven't crashed any more. At our recent meeting, two people asked me to bring them a bottle full. Another member came up to me and stated that his was darker. I joked that mine was much darker, and he suggested we have a competition. It was all in good humor, because neither of us even showed the other their culture. Later, one of the recipients of my culture told me mine was much darker and the other guy had to concede. I'm really not like that, and didn't pursue the competition, but I am glad that I can actually grow this stuff successfully again, finally!

04/16/2005, 07:32 AM	#67
moumda Premium Member Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: North Dakota Posts: 991	I use the water change water from my tank and boil it making sure it gets to at least 160 deg f. I was culturing with 2 liter pop bottles but have switch to glass wide mouth 1 gallon jars and am having much better luck. Use FAF F2 fertilizer 2 ml per bottle and start new culture with 1/4 gallon from old culture. Glass needs to be cleaned with muric acid every other batch. Date my cultures and never let them go more than 1 week. Have 5 gallons going at once and supply local club with phyto they need ($2 for 16 oz bottle and $8 for 2 liters). Forces me to do water changes in my tank and keeps me in frags at local club meetings.

04/16/2005, 07:45 AM	#68
WaterKeeper Bogus Information Expert Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: SW Ohio Posts: 16,147	About a tablespoonful of bleach in a 2 liter bottle left for about 30 minutes should disinfect the bottle in most cases. Rinse it well and let it dry to make sure it is free of chlorine residuals. Don't use declor on the bottle as it may have bacteria in it if it has been stored for any amount of time. If doing the microwave trick don't put water in the bottle. Just microwave it for about a minute dry. The micro-organisms you wish to eliminate already have water in their cell structure and it will boil during microwaving and kill them. I think the steam is what melted your bottle as I tried this with a dry bottle and it made it through the process fine. __________________ "Leading the information hungry reefer down the road to starvation" Tom Current Tank Info: 130 Now out of service and a 29

04/16/2005, 02:15 PM	#69
PrivateJoker64 Moved On Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: Huntington, WV Posts: 1,145	Yeah, I'm sure it was the steam. I thought it was bad to run your microwave without something in it to absorb the energy. Do you put a cup of water in there with the bottle?

04/16/2005, 04:59 PM	#70
Kathy55g Moved On Join Date: Mar 2004 Posts: 3,249	So Mark, what did you do differently that led to your recent success? Thanks, Kathy

04/16/2005, 06:51 PM	#71
melev Moved On Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Ft Worth, Tx Posts: 43,217	Kathy, when you read this page, look at the section dated 1-20-05 for the new method that works. My cultures have been bubbling for 3 weeks straight, and are long overdue to split. I just haven't done it. I'll do it tonight though. http://www.melevsreef.com/phytoplankton.html

04/16/2005, 08:07 PM	#72
Kathy55g Moved On Join Date: Mar 2004 Posts: 3,249	Thanks Mark.

04/28/2005, 09:04 PM	#73
DrBDC Registered Member Join Date: Aug 2004 Location: Ballwin, Missouri Posts: 10,358	Waterkeeper, my gallons only hold 3.78 liters too! I think we're getting ripped off at the pumps! __________________ Some drink at the fountain of knowledge, some just gargle, but most are rabid. Current Tank Info: 180g sps+75 softy/lps on one system tunze's, seio's, mjmods, aquacontroller w/add ons, 2X400 XM10000 and 3X160 vho actinic, 110g sump, 110 frag tank, Geo Beckett and other stuff

04/28/2005, 11:40 PM	#74
WaterKeeper Bogus Information Expert Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: SW Ohio Posts: 16,147	I heard they really get ripped off in Canada. The gallons there are only 3.153 liters. __________________ "Leading the information hungry reefer down the road to starvation" Tom Current Tank Info: 130 Now out of service and a 29

04/29/2005, 04:49 AM	#75
nickb Registered Member Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: Ottawa, Canada Posts: 678	Actually, an imperial gallon is larger than a US gallon and works out to about 4.5 liters per gallon. The US and imperial volume measures are strangely different. According to this web site (http://www.bartleby.com/61/charts/M0182500.html), the 'fl oz' has a different volume in the two systems. In the US system, a fl oz is 29.57 ml while in the imperial system, it is 28.41 ml (i.e. the US fl oz is about 4% larger.). I think most people just ignore this but, for percise measurements, it can become important. Of course, for precise measurement and scientific purposes, we should also use metric measures which have a universal meaning. More than anyone needs to know :-)