Casper's health is declining

melev · 02/11/2006, 03:46 PM

I tried to log onto Seahorse.org for some help, but their message board has been suspended due to high activity today.

Casper is a female H. reidi that I've had for over 6 months. She loves eating Hikari Mysis, until recently. Here appetite is virtually non-existant, and her tail has turned gray for about the bottom 1.5 to 2". She is yellow in color. I'm guessing it is tail rot, if there is such a thing. Do you have any advice about what to do?

Her tank is small, but it was never a problem before. I just added a new seahorse a few days ago, right as things seem to decline and the new H. reidi appears perfectly fine. The corals in the tank look good and the macro algae continues to grow...

NanoLurker · 02/11/2006, 04:59 PM

marc,

sorry to hear about casper. i am not an expert (man where are they when you need them). hopefully someone from the org will be here soon. can you get a picture at all?

it could be vibrio, but having just gone through a bout of uronema (still fighting it) it could be that as well - the symptoms are so similar to one strain of vibrio - skin can appear to be sloughing and antibiotics are useless unless the uronema has caused a secondary infection. how is her breathing? rapid, deep? what about eye movement and movement in general? is her tail stiff at all, is she holding it awkwardly? is she still hitching? is it just discolored or does it appear raw, ulcerative?

i'm sure you know the drill, QT tank ASAP, pH, salinity, temperature matched. i always use a 10 gallon with airline and small HOB filter, along with fake plant or coral for horse to hitch to.

pictures will be awfully helpful so i would hold off until someone like danU, kg, or one of the other experienced keepers verify the following: if it's bacterial (vibrio) in nature neomycin and triple sulfa. triple sulfa per instructions, neomycin at 250 mg/gallon - yep 2500 mg if you're using a 10 gallon QT tank. very slowly drop the temperature to 68 (i can't remember if it's no more than 2 or 4 degrees a day). there are other antibiotics you can use, so if you don't have the neo and triple sulfa let us know what you do have.

how long since she's eaten? i'm uber-aggressive when treating for any type of infection and won't allow the horse to go two days without eating. if it's been more than 3 days better start thinking of tube feeding.

melev · 02/11/2006, 05:07 PM

Thanks for replying. She ate about three specs of mysis last night, and I've got some brine nauptilii available that is ready to harvest now (48 hour batches).

I'll take a few pictures. She does hitch here and there, but lately seems to like parking against the intake of a small HOB filter. Her breathing seems faster yesterday than today, and what I'll do is compare her breathing to the new seahorse. Is what you described contagious to the other horse?

NanoLurker · 02/11/2006, 05:19 PM

if you have to treat with antibiotics it's gonna wipe out your biofilter, hence the barebottom QT. i would isolate casper first and see where we stand once the pictures are up (i would really like a second opinion) but either way she has to be isolated for any kind of treatment. it's possible the other horse could develop problems, but since she's not showing anything at the moment and has been in the tank a couple days already, i probably would hold off on putting her in QT.

panmanmatt · 02/11/2006, 05:28 PM

Marc,

For starters, lower the temp, once you get her into QT, to 70 F. Slowly at a rate of about 2 degrees every 12 hours or so.

I would also start a round of Neomyacin/triple sulfa. Or if you don't have them, you can get Neo3 which is an already formulated dosage of the 2 drugs made specifically for treating seahorse. It can be found at aquabiotics.net or seahorsesource.com.

Did you QT the new horse before introducing it into the tank? Where did you get the horses from?

Hopefully others will chime in with more/better advice but that should get you started.

Yes vibrio can be contagious. It is also possible that your new horse is an asymptomatic cdarrier and has passed it onto your older horse.

NanoLurker · 02/11/2006, 05:32 PM

phew, thanks panmanmatt. i've pm'd a couple of people for help as well.

gut feeling is it's bacterial. if it was uronema (protozoa) you would most likely have seen her scratching herself.

melev · 02/11/2006, 06:05 PM

Okay, here are the pictures, and some video.

What are all these tiny bubbles on her? Isn't this something to be concerned about? Is that part of the bacterial infection you were describing?

http://www.melevsreef.com/video/sick_casper.wmv 5.75 megs

I'll check to see what medication I have on hand.

melev · 02/11/2006, 06:07 PM

I'll get the quarantine tank running immediately. I do have one set up currently, but it is full of LR, zoos, ricordia... maybe I can move that out into my reef's sump. I'd have to change the powerhead for sure, and getting the tank temperature down will be a challenge as that tank tends to be warm in the fish room.

With a cooling fan and a heater, I might be able to offset one another.

The horses are ORA raised, eating Hikari mysis. The new one was not quarantined.

Ever heard of Neo Plex, by Seachem? Or Fulfathiazole? My LFS has these in stock.

panmanmatt · 02/11/2006, 06:10 PM

Are those bubbles on the skin or under it? Hard to tell from the pics. If they are under the skin that could be a whole other problem with an added treatment plan.

melev · 02/11/2006, 06:12 PM

It looks like it is on the surface, like cyano bacteria.

melev · 02/11/2006, 06:14 PM

Besides the medicines listed above that I can go buy right now, I have on hand:

Maracyn-Two, Formalin, Beta Glucan, and Oomed.

panmanmatt · 02/11/2006, 06:37 PM

Ok it is very common for seahorses to grow algae on them.

I'm not sure about the meds you listed, I wish someone with more knowledge would chime in.

Looking at the pics it does appear to be a vibrio infection.

melev · 02/11/2006, 06:39 PM

I'll go buy the two kinds they have at the LFS as they are about to close, in case one of the is okay. And I'll get Casper moved to a new tank now, so everything is ready. Why is 70 degrees beneficial?

panmanmatt · 02/11/2006, 06:46 PM

the lower temp will slow the spread and growth of the bacteria allowing the meds a better chance to take care of it.

NanoLurker · 02/11/2006, 07:01 PM

not sure of any of the meds either, i know that kg has recommended marcyin II on occasion but i can't remember what it was for.

beta glucan good, gut load food with it as it is an immunostimulant.

marc, i have to take off for a bit. i'll check the thread later tonight when i get home and will shoot you an e-mail tomorrow as well.

bridgett

DanU · 02/11/2006, 07:05 PM

Lowering the temperature can slow down the growth rate of the bacteria. Medications should be administered in a hospital tank which should be a bare bottom tank with an airline. Antibiotics properly dosed will kill the biofilter. Ammonia levels are kept in check with daily water changes.

Neoplex is Neomycin by Seachem. Problem is their recommended dosage of 1 measure per 2 gallons equals about 25 mg gallon. We normally recommend 250 mg gallon. Their Sulfathiazole appears to be under dosed as well. A good clue to this is when a company advertises it as a wide spectrum antibiotic and it doesn't harm the nitrification process it probably isn't strong enough to fight the bacterial infection.

Neomycin and Triple or TMP Sulpha are normally the first choice we recommend to folks since they are a wide sprectrum antibiotic and the two combined create a synergistic effect.

My next choice is Nifurpirinol which can be found in Furanase or Furan II.

Maracyn - Two is further down the list of recommendations. Do you have the saltwater version?

Dan

melev · 02/11/2006, 07:27 PM

Hi Dan,

COOL! I just bought some Furan-2, as well as the two other products so I could start tonight. I've got an empty 10g I can set up, using water from my reef. Do I have to change salinity as well?

The Maracyn Two is for saltwater.

Since I'm killing the biofilter, I guess there is no reason to add a sponge full of bacteria like we normally recommend for q-tanks, right?

The water changes will be no problem as I've got premixed-aged saltwater ready to go. Do you recommend I use that water for the hospital tank over the reef water?

panmanmatt · 02/11/2006, 07:36 PM

I would suggest using the new water. Water from your reef may pose a problem with the temp thing.

melev · 02/11/2006, 07:42 PM

Okay. I'll go clean out the tank.

DanU · 02/11/2006, 07:59 PM

I agree with Matt on the water.

My preference is the Furan 2 over the Maracyn. Unless KG steps in with a different recommendation. I would try to get ahold of either the Neo 3 or Neomycin and Triple supha to have on hand.

As you suspect, filtration won't do any good during the course of treatment(s).

Dan

melev · 02/11/2006, 08:14 PM

Dan, I'm ready. The tank is rinsed out, filled up and a fake plant (never used) is anchored in the 10g. I added rigid airline tubing for air, and Casper is floating in a bag acclimating now. The tank is running 72.7F while her tank is 75.8F.

What dosage do you recommend for Furan II? The package says one capsule per 10g. Do you dissolve it in a cup of RO water?

DanU · 02/11/2006, 08:21 PM

I would go with the label on dosing. I usually mix my meds in saltwater in a container with a stick blender. Then add to the tank. The rigid tube will work, but I prefer an airstone as it seems to get better circulation.

Dan

melev · 02/11/2006, 08:27 PM

I can definitely add an airstone. I got the impression earlier in the thread to use only tubing. Okay, I'll get it mixed up, and should be able to put Casper in the tank within 20 minutes or so.

melev · 02/11/2006, 08:33 PM

Thank you for all your help thus far. Everything is about ready.

Do you recommend that I acclimate the new seahorse to this tank as well for the treatment, in case it was exposed to this problem now?

DanU · 02/11/2006, 10:03 PM

Marc, we use airstones in our fry, grow out and brood stock tanks without issue. I would not treat the other horse unless he/she is showing symptoms. Your setup looks fine. Good luck!

Dan

02/11/2006, 03:46 PM	#1
melev Moved On Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Ft Worth, Tx Posts: 43,217	Casper's health is declining I tried to log onto Seahorse.org for some help, but their message board has been suspended due to high activity today. Casper is a female H. reidi that I've had for over 6 months. She loves eating Hikari Mysis, until recently. Here appetite is virtually non-existant, and her tail has turned gray for about the bottom 1.5 to 2". She is yellow in color. I'm guessing it is tail rot, if there is such a thing. Do you have any advice about what to do? Her tank is small, but it was never a problem before. I just added a new seahorse a few days ago, right as things seem to decline and the new H. reidi appears perfectly fine. The corals in the tank look good and the macro algae continues to grow...

02/11/2006, 06:14 PM	#11
melev Moved On Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Ft Worth, Tx Posts: 43,217	Besides the medicines listed above that I can go buy right now, I have on hand: Maracyn-Two, Formalin, Beta Glucan, and Oomed. Last edited by melev; 02/11/2006 at 06:30 PM.

02/11/2006, 04:59 PM	#2
NanoLurker Registered Member Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Orange County, CA Posts: 377	marc, sorry to hear about casper. i am not an expert (man where are they when you need them). hopefully someone from the org will be here soon. can you get a picture at all? it could be vibrio, but having just gone through a bout of uronema (still fighting it) it could be that as well - the symptoms are so similar to one strain of vibrio - skin can appear to be sloughing and antibiotics are useless unless the uronema has caused a secondary infection. how is her breathing? rapid, deep? what about eye movement and movement in general? is her tail stiff at all, is she holding it awkwardly? is she still hitching? is it just discolored or does it appear raw, ulcerative? i'm sure you know the drill, QT tank ASAP, pH, salinity, temperature matched. i always use a 10 gallon with airline and small HOB filter, along with fake plant or coral for horse to hitch to. pictures will be awfully helpful so i would hold off until someone like danU, kg, or one of the other experienced keepers verify the following: if it's bacterial (vibrio) in nature neomycin and triple sulfa. triple sulfa per instructions, neomycin at 250 mg/gallon - yep 2500 mg if you're using a 10 gallon QT tank. very slowly drop the temperature to 68 (i can't remember if it's no more than 2 or 4 degrees a day). there are other antibiotics you can use, so if you don't have the neo and triple sulfa let us know what you do have. how long since she's eaten? i'm uber-aggressive when treating for any type of infection and won't allow the horse to go two days without eating. if it's been more than 3 days better start thinking of tube feeding.

02/11/2006, 05:07 PM	#3
melev Moved On Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Ft Worth, Tx Posts: 43,217	Thanks for replying. She ate about three specs of mysis last night, and I've got some brine nauptilii available that is ready to harvest now (48 hour batches). I'll take a few pictures. She does hitch here and there, but lately seems to like parking against the intake of a small HOB filter. Her breathing seems faster yesterday than today, and what I'll do is compare her breathing to the new seahorse. Is what you described contagious to the other horse?

02/11/2006, 05:19 PM	#4
NanoLurker Registered Member Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Orange County, CA Posts: 377	if you have to treat with antibiotics it's gonna wipe out your biofilter, hence the barebottom QT. i would isolate casper first and see where we stand once the pictures are up (i would really like a second opinion) but either way she has to be isolated for any kind of treatment. it's possible the other horse could develop problems, but since she's not showing anything at the moment and has been in the tank a couple days already, i probably would hold off on putting her in QT.

02/11/2006, 05:28 PM	#5
panmanmatt Registered Member Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Ocean County, NJ Posts: 474	Marc, For starters, lower the temp, once you get her into QT, to 70 F. Slowly at a rate of about 2 degrees every 12 hours or so. I would also start a round of Neomyacin/triple sulfa. Or if you don't have them, you can get Neo3 which is an already formulated dosage of the 2 drugs made specifically for treating seahorse. It can be found at aquabiotics.net or seahorsesource.com. Did you QT the new horse before introducing it into the tank? Where did you get the horses from? Hopefully others will chime in with more/better advice but that should get you started. Yes vibrio can be contagious. It is also possible that your new horse is an asymptomatic cdarrier and has passed it onto your older horse.

02/11/2006, 05:32 PM	#6
NanoLurker Registered Member Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Orange County, CA Posts: 377	phew, thanks panmanmatt. i've pm'd a couple of people for help as well. gut feeling is it's bacterial. if it was uronema (protozoa) you would most likely have seen her scratching herself.

02/11/2006, 06:05 PM	#7
melev Moved On Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Ft Worth, Tx Posts: 43,217	Okay, here are the pictures, and some video. What are all these tiny bubbles on her? Isn't this something to be concerned about? Is that part of the bacterial infection you were describing? http://www.melevsreef.com/video/sick_casper.wmv 5.75 megs I'll check to see what medication I have on hand.

02/11/2006, 06:07 PM	#8
melev Moved On Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Ft Worth, Tx Posts: 43,217	I'll get the quarantine tank running immediately. I do have one set up currently, but it is full of LR, zoos, ricordia... maybe I can move that out into my reef's sump. I'd have to change the powerhead for sure, and getting the tank temperature down will be a challenge as that tank tends to be warm in the fish room. With a cooling fan and a heater, I might be able to offset one another. The horses are ORA raised, eating Hikari mysis. The new one was not quarantined. Ever heard of Neo Plex, by Seachem? Or Fulfathiazole? My LFS has these in stock.

02/11/2006, 06:10 PM	#9
panmanmatt Registered Member Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Ocean County, NJ Posts: 474	Are those bubbles on the skin or under it? Hard to tell from the pics. If they are under the skin that could be a whole other problem with an added treatment plan.

02/11/2006, 06:12 PM	#10
melev Moved On Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Ft Worth, Tx Posts: 43,217	It looks like it is on the surface, like cyano bacteria.

02/11/2006, 06:37 PM	#12
panmanmatt Registered Member Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Ocean County, NJ Posts: 474	Ok it is very common for seahorses to grow algae on them. I'm not sure about the meds you listed, I wish someone with more knowledge would chime in. Looking at the pics it does appear to be a vibrio infection.

02/11/2006, 06:39 PM	#13
melev Moved On Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Ft Worth, Tx Posts: 43,217	I'll go buy the two kinds they have at the LFS as they are about to close, in case one of the is okay. And I'll get Casper moved to a new tank now, so everything is ready. Why is 70 degrees beneficial?

02/11/2006, 06:46 PM	#14
panmanmatt Registered Member Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Ocean County, NJ Posts: 474	the lower temp will slow the spread and growth of the bacteria allowing the meds a better chance to take care of it.

02/11/2006, 07:01 PM	#15
NanoLurker Registered Member Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Orange County, CA Posts: 377	not sure of any of the meds either, i know that kg has recommended marcyin II on occasion but i can't remember what it was for. beta glucan good, gut load food with it as it is an immunostimulant. marc, i have to take off for a bit. i'll check the thread later tonight when i get home and will shoot you an e-mail tomorrow as well. bridgett

02/11/2006, 07:05 PM	#16
DanU Registered Member Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: Ft. Pierce, FL Posts: 698	Lowering the temperature can slow down the growth rate of the bacteria. Medications should be administered in a hospital tank which should be a bare bottom tank with an airline. Antibiotics properly dosed will kill the biofilter. Ammonia levels are kept in check with daily water changes. Neoplex is Neomycin by Seachem. Problem is their recommended dosage of 1 measure per 2 gallons equals about 25 mg gallon. We normally recommend 250 mg gallon. Their Sulfathiazole appears to be under dosed as well. A good clue to this is when a company advertises it as a wide spectrum antibiotic and it doesn't harm the nitrification process it probably isn't strong enough to fight the bacterial infection. Neomycin and Triple or TMP Sulpha are normally the first choice we recommend to folks since they are a wide sprectrum antibiotic and the two combined create a synergistic effect. My next choice is Nifurpirinol which can be found in Furanase or Furan II. Maracyn - Two is further down the list of recommendations. Do you have the saltwater version? Dan

02/11/2006, 07:27 PM	#17
melev Moved On Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Ft Worth, Tx Posts: 43,217	Hi Dan, COOL! I just bought some Furan-2, as well as the two other products so I could start tonight. I've got an empty 10g I can set up, using water from my reef. Do I have to change salinity as well? The Maracyn Two is for saltwater. Since I'm killing the biofilter, I guess there is no reason to add a sponge full of bacteria like we normally recommend for q-tanks, right? The water changes will be no problem as I've got premixed-aged saltwater ready to go. Do you recommend I use that water for the hospital tank over the reef water?

02/11/2006, 07:36 PM	#18
panmanmatt Registered Member Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Ocean County, NJ Posts: 474	I would suggest using the new water. Water from your reef may pose a problem with the temp thing.

02/11/2006, 07:42 PM	#19
melev Moved On Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Ft Worth, Tx Posts: 43,217	Okay. I'll go clean out the tank.

02/11/2006, 07:59 PM	#20
DanU Registered Member Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: Ft. Pierce, FL Posts: 698	I agree with Matt on the water. My preference is the Furan 2 over the Maracyn. Unless KG steps in with a different recommendation. I would try to get ahold of either the Neo 3 or Neomycin and Triple supha to have on hand. As you suspect, filtration won't do any good during the course of treatment(s). Dan

02/11/2006, 08:14 PM	#21
melev Moved On Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Ft Worth, Tx Posts: 43,217	Dan, I'm ready. The tank is rinsed out, filled up and a fake plant (never used) is anchored in the 10g. I added rigid airline tubing for air, and Casper is floating in a bag acclimating now. The tank is running 72.7F while her tank is 75.8F. What dosage do you recommend for Furan II? The package says one capsule per 10g. Do you dissolve it in a cup of RO water?

02/11/2006, 08:21 PM	#22
DanU Registered Member Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: Ft. Pierce, FL Posts: 698	I would go with the label on dosing. I usually mix my meds in saltwater in a container with a stick blender. Then add to the tank. The rigid tube will work, but I prefer an airstone as it seems to get better circulation. Dan

02/11/2006, 08:27 PM	#23
melev Moved On Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Ft Worth, Tx Posts: 43,217	I can definitely add an airstone. I got the impression earlier in the thread to use only tubing. Okay, I'll get it mixed up, and should be able to put Casper in the tank within 20 minutes or so.

02/11/2006, 08:33 PM	#24
melev Moved On Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Ft Worth, Tx Posts: 43,217	Thank you for all your help thus far. Everything is about ready. Do you recommend that I acclimate the new seahorse to this tank as well for the treatment, in case it was exposed to this problem now?

02/11/2006, 10:03 PM	#25
DanU Registered Member Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: Ft. Pierce, FL Posts: 698	Marc, we use airstones in our fry, grow out and brood stock tanks without issue. I would not treat the other horse unless he/she is showing symptoms. Your setup looks fine. Good luck! Dan