Waterfall Turf Algea Filter: CHEAP and EASY to build

[vitz]

Originally posted by SantaMonica
scifi: As for turf not being currently popular, think about this: What if someone patented bubbles going through a vertical tube of water. Then he decided to sue anyone who tried to sell any such device, and, he decided to not make and sell them himself. You would not have your current skimmer today. What then would you use to skim? Would you build one? How many people actually have DIY skimmers, much less good ones? What would a newbie do, who's putting together their first or second tank? This is exactly what happened to turf. Now, if this did happen to skimmers, someone eventually would come along and say, "Why do you have to pump air through a water column? Why can't you just..." And boom, you'd have some other version that makes an air-water interface occur, but does not violate the patent by using a pump to push air through a water column. Luckily, however, nobody has a patent on the pumping of air through a water column, like they do with turf:

Algal Turf Scrubber, United States Patent 4333263:
http://www.freepatentsonline.com/4333263.html

Sooooo, you could actually ask, if skimmers are so good, why is there not a patent on the design? After all, the manufacturers want to make money right?

As an aside, yesterday the nano hit zero P for the first time.

interesting-the patent you reference is Adey's

he did NOT patent turf scrubbing:

"Studies in algal turf production are well known and reported in the literature" (from his very own patent application/abstract)

there are plenty of skimmer design patents out there-some are even listed on teh boxes of the repective companies that market their respective designs

FYI BOTH turf scrubbing AND skimming were being used for commercial wastewater treatments long before people were keeping marine ornamentals in any appreciable numbers

huh? where on earth do you get your information from ? there have been dozens of alga scrubbers marketed for the hobby over the past 50 years, with their respective design patents, too.

i think you're just as confused about what different types of patents there are, what patenting actually means, what one can or cannot do with/due to a patent, as you are about NO2 and PO4 being the only things needed to measure to make a claim of 'perfect water quality'

[SantaMonica]

interesting-the patent you reference is Adey's

Of course it is

he did NOT patent turf scrubbing: "Studies in algal turf production are well known and reported in the literature" (from his very own patent application/abstract)

Read what you just copied and posted:

Algal Turf Scrubber, United States Patent 4333263:
http://www.freepatentsonline.com/4333263.html

there are plenty of skimmer design patents out there-some are even listed on teh boxes of the repective companies that market their respective designs

Yes but they are trying to sell them. Aday is stopping them from selling.

huh? where on earth do you get your information from ? there have been dozens of alga scrubbers marketed for the hobby over the past 50 years, with their respective design patents, too.

Good. Maybe you can post some parts/pieces of them that will make turf easier for us to use.

i think you're just as confused about what different types of patents there are

I don't care what types there are.

as you are about NO2 and PO4 being the only things needed to measure to make a claim of 'perfect water quality'.

(1) Copy and paste any mention of me saying "perfect water quality".
(2) My original post/intent was indeed directed at just N and P. Here is the first sentence of this thread: "I want to build a cheap and easy turf algea filter, primarily to knock down N and P", and here is the title my other thread: "Mega-Powerful Nitrate and Phosphate Remover Replaces Skimmer, Refugium"

[jenglish]

I don't think Adey was specifically trying to stop ATS scrubbers from being sold I believe it was just a dispute over royalties with various manufacturers that made dump bucket style ATS no longer available. I could be wrong about this but I belive this is what I was told at a place that used to manufacture them.

[SantaMonica]

Fortunately we don't have to know the specifics; matter of fact I don't even know if the patent is still valid/enforceable. But it did, at the time, even up until last year, stop people from selling them (I know; I tried to buy one). One guy on RC last year had some really nice acrylic ones, but within a few weeks he shut down. Pics are still on here though.

[GRREEF]

4,333,263 is expired. However, there are a number of other patents in the area, some of which Adey is the inventor of.

[SantaMonica]

Here's a neat screen that someone just built. Since there was no vertical room in his sump area, he asked about horizontal options and I showed him the commercial floating turf screens. He made one out of floating material:

[herring_fish]

That’s about as simple as you can get. Is there a surge flowing into that sump? He could use your surge device.


Of course, if anyone wants another horizontal design then they could try this, if they are handy. The dark blue is how the water settles when the cycle starts and the light blue is how it is just before and as the bucket bumps. Then it re-sets because of the weight.

You don't need the tub unless it will be up high.

[vitz]

Originally posted by SantaMonica
Fortunately we don't have to know the specifics; matter of fact I don't even know if the patent is still valid/enforceable. But it did, at the time, even up until last year, stop people from selling them (I know; I tried to buy one). One guy on RC last year had some really nice acrylic ones, but within a few weeks he shut down. Pics are still on here though.

from another one of your threads:

"It will replace (or keep you from needing) a skimmer, refugium, phosphate removers, nitrate removers, carbon, filtersocks, and possibly even waterchanges."

so you base all this on just what's going on with 'n' and 'p' ? are you even remotely aware at how stupid and foolish you look ?

you denied ever mentioning adey on that thread when YOU were the one citing HIS patent as a reference

then when challenged on anything you either misquote or MISREPRESENT, the best you can come up with is 'we don't have to know the specifics' (your 'brushoffs' merely point to your ignorance-which i'd suggest you stop flaunting as something to be proud of)

as a relative old timer speaking to an absolute noob, again-you're doing many dangerous things here, and have yet to learn one of THE most important things about this hobby...

the devil is in the details

Adey CANNOT, and COULD NOT stop anyone from building or selling anything that isn't a direct copy of his DESIGN patent, btw-and i'm not too sure that given his deplorable results, that anyone would want to

[One Dumm Hikk]

Originally posted by vitz
from another one of your threads:

"It will replace (or keep you from needing) a skimmer, refugium, phosphate removers, nitrate removers, carbon, filtersocks, and possibly even waterchanges."

so you base all this on just what's going on with 'n' and 'p' ? are you even remotely aware at how stupid and foolish you look ?

I questioned that very claim on another forum and he backed off of it and finally quantified it by saying "with regards to N and P" but claims the device is for the newbe to the hobby. I am a newbe to the hobby (less than a year) and the last thing I want is something is so hotly debated as to its merits.

[erics3000]

Interesting thread still reading.. Bergy love your zeovit reactor and bucket of algae...sweet

[SantaMonica]

vitz:

so you base all this on just what's going on with 'n' and 'p'?

That's my original post. If you are referring to the overall purpose of my original post, then yes.

are you even remotely aware at how stupid and foolish you look?

No.

you denied ever mentioning adey on that [thread on another site] when YOU were the one citing HIS patent as a reference

I did not ever mention his name on that thread.

then when challenged on anything you either misquote or MISREPRESENT

Please cut and paste any such occurance(s).

the best you can come up with is 'we don't have to know the specifics'

Correct, when pertaining to patents. However, maybe you do.

your 'brushoffs'

Please state a single question/comment you made that I did not respond to, and I will respond to it here.

i'd suggest you stop flaunting

You mean when I say I'm not an organic chemist, or I'm not a long-term aquarist, or that I have never kept sps? Or when I say I've never studied ozone or orp?

as a relative old timer

Thank you for providing your experienced input.

speaking to an absolute noob

At what point do I graduate to the next level?

again-you're doing many dangerous things here

List one.

Adey CANNOT, and COULD NOT stop anyone from building or selling anything that isn't a direct copy of his DESIGN patent

When did I say he could?

given his deplorable results

Depends what you mean by deplorable.

[bergzy]

Originally posted by erics3000
Interesting thread still reading.. Bergy love your zeovit reactor and bucket of algae...sweet

thank you eric!

[GRREEF]

Adey CANNOT, and COULD NOT stop anyone from building or selling anything that isn't a direct copy of his DESIGN patent

Actually both his expired patent and his current patents are Utility Patents. They don't protect the pure design, but rather how the item functions.

--sorry to split hairs with you on that.

[GRREEF]

There seems to be a lot of posts on this board criticizing SM for overselling his waterfall. While I agree there appears to be some exaggeration, I applaud SM's enthusiasm. For the most part hobbyists push innovation in Reef Keeping, not industry. If people weren't excited about their successes, there would be little progress.

Unless I missed something on this thread, the criticisms I've seen about the waterfall is that an Algal filter is not pleasant to clean.

I would really like to know what other criticisms exist. I am rebuilding a tank system myself, and might incorporate a non-surge algal filter into the design.

As a father of multiple children, I'm not too concerned about my abilities to clean something slimy and smelly.

Now, I'm not likely to stop mechanical filtration, but if it grows algae like SM shows in his photos, it seems like a good nutrient export system.

For those who have been in this hobby for a long time, are there any result based reasons why algal filters appear to have been in large part abandoned by the hobby?

[matt & pam]

GRREEF....Cost for one. My eco-wheel system alone was about 3K. Getting one was another problem, one of the persons selling the eco-wheel bought the rights and moved to KC. He is almost impossible to reach, as he runs a tank maintenance business and really isn't much of a salesman.

In addition, even though N and P might be maintained at unmeasurable levels, I've yet to see a spectacular SPS dominant tank run solely on a turf scrubber. I also think that the designs in the 80's-90's dramatically underestimated the amount of flow required in a coral dominated reef tank.

I believe the way to convince some is to show a mature tank dominated in SPS utilizing a turf scrubber. I would value that more than the 1-2 months experience being expressed on this thread.

I have 790 sq inches of scrubber surface area for my 180 gallon tank, and in my situation I was not able to maintain an algae free tank.

I also wonder about the maintenance on the pendulum dumping designs? I don't know how reliable they were, but I have seen some threads where the acylic housings were cracked.

Despite all the above, I am interested to see SantaMonica's tank progress after using this system for 12-24 months.

[Moreta]

Originally posted by matt & pam

I believe the way to convince some is to show a mature tank dominated in SPS utilizing a turf scrubber. I would value that more than the 1-2 months experience being expressed on this thread.

That sums things up nicely.

[herring_fish]

Wow,

I just talked with Dr. Adey. He’s a very regular guy and very nice. I didn’t realize that I was going to get to talk to him so I didn’t ask all of the questions that I would like to but I will put down a few thought that immediately come to mind.

His 12 year old Turf screen over time became primarily populated by red and brown rug like algae just like the stuff that SantaMonica bought. I described what my alga was like and asked if I should try to get the red/brown type to grow instead. He didn’t care too much about which type of algae that grows in the scrubber. He just went by the amount of harvest, by height, that you get, not by the species.

I didn’t ask him about the patents. I didn’t think of it when there was a pause in the conversation. I have a couple of patents and I know that you can fabricate your own unit for personal use and that is not prosecutable. Only when you want to make something for profit do you have to start to think about negotiating a cut for a currently valid patent holder if there is one. I did tell him that I designed and built a dump bucket that I copies from a specific unit that in his book. He didn’t seem to care and the conversation didn’t skip a beat.

His biggest point, as it relates to hobbyists, was that you must harvest regularly. He felt that about 7 days was a good cycle. He said that if you go on vacation and need to go to 10 days, that would be OK but an Algal Turf Scrubber is not like a bacterial filter that you might be able to set and forget. He gave his screen a good cleaning regularly, using salt water to wash the left over particles away. He felt that they can pass into the system and lower the effectiveness of the scrubber.

On another subject, I asked him about dosing vodka. He didn’t have an opinion and he didn’t have a dogmatic response. He simply laughed and said that he didn’t know much about it. He was aware of it but he said that he is primarily interested in duplicating the chemical make up of specific water conditions in the wild for very large systems. I said something about not wanting vodka to compete with the AST but that I did like the bacteria for filter feeders. He started talking about some high bacteria pockets on the reef but he said that there aren’t any of those areas at the front of the reef where the corals are.

He just didn’t seem to be too interested in the controversies that swirled around the hobby. He’s just a scientist who’s concepts have been used in small tanks as well as the big systems that he is interested in.

[SantaMonica]

Congrats to Herring for having a conversation with Aday...

[Aday] didn’t care too much about which type of algae that grows in the scrubber. He just went by the amount of harvest, by height, that you get, not by the species.

That's good to hear; gives hope to those who are just getting green hair (and tons of it).

His biggest point, as it relates to hobbyists, was that you must harvest regularly. He felt that about 7 days was a good cycle.

I found that out quickly. Especially right after initial installation. All that N and P getting pulled out for the first time, makes for a feast for the algae. My nano test screen was undersized, and could overflow in two days when it was new. Now that N and P are zero, we are back to a once-a-week cycle.

He just didn’t seem to be too interested in the controversies that swirled around the hobby. He’s just a scientist who’s concepts have been used in small tanks as well as the big systems that he is interested in.

Yes, that is echoed in the fact that he never tried to make his own units for aquariums; he instead went right into large scale commericial applications.

Anyways, here's the first pre-grown installation I've seen (except for mine)... jski711 on another board said: "I can't believe how well this DIY thing worked. It literally took all of 45 minutes once I had the materials. And I have noticed my pH raise up about .15 in a few hours since installing it."

[vitz]

Originally posted by GRREEF
There seems to be a lot of posts on this board criticizing SM for overselling his waterfall. While I agree there appears to be some exaggeration, I applaud SM's enthusiasm. For the most part hobbyists push innovation in Reef Keeping, not industry. If people weren't excited about their successes, there would be little progress.

Unless I missed something on this thread, the criticisms I've seen about the waterfall is that an Algal filter is not pleasant to clean.

I would really like to know what other criticisms exist. I am rebuilding a tank system myself, and might incorporate a non-surge algal filter into the design.

As a father of multiple children, I'm not too concerned about my abilities to clean something slimy and smelly.

Now, I'm not likely to stop mechanical filtration, but if it grows algae like SM shows in his photos, it seems like a good nutrient export system.

For those who have been in this hobby for a long time, are there any result based reasons why algal filters appear to have been in large part abandoned by the hobby?

because they aren't nearly the cure-all panacea the 'used car salesman' types crack them up to be

ALL algal processors produce whole classes of wastes that WILL impact on invert/coral/fish health (don't let santa monica's absolute and total ignorance of such things lead you to think they do not exist, or aren't produced) that not ONE of the proponents of said system has ever explained how to get rid of-nor do they address the wastes/metabolites that the animals produce that algae simply doesn't absorb or use

how anyone can even hint at such a device/system precluding the well and long established value of either wc's or a more comprehensive processing system is beyond me and most others with at least a smattering of experience

why are skimmers so widely used by so many ? (and even THEY don't do 'everything' )

[vitz]

"And I have noticed my pH raise up about .15 in a few hours since installing it."

did they also check to see by how much more the pH drops at night ?

[InlandAqua]

nothing will filter like the ocean....
but a skimmer and turf scrubber or refugium used together should produce almost perfect water parameters.....
...vitz....your right water changes\siphoning detritis almost always has to be done at some point but having a variety of pods and worms will help break down some of the waste and maybe let the bacterial colonies help process. Do you agree?

[Michael]

as mentioned elsewhere santa i may change my mind with this idea, great information

[vitz]

Originally posted by InlandAqua
nothing will filter like the ocean....
but a skimmer and turf scrubber or refugium used together should produce almost perfect water parameters.....
...vitz....your right water changes\siphoning detritis almost always has to be done at some point but having a variety of pods and worms will help break down some of the waste and maybe let the bacterial colonies help process. Do you agree?

do i agree that having a good biodiversity level in a system helps the system to function better overall ? of course-let's spare each other the rhetorical questions :P

an algal scrubber is not necessary to achieve pods and worms, however-and ultimately, it's not the scrubber that determines how many 'extra' pods the system will grow/support-it's the amount of FOOD in the system that determines such, and the relative amounts of growth/health inhibiting componds that the system builds up over time-my bet is that ultimately and in the long term-NO extra pod production will occur due to the installment of any scrubber-add some extra food, however, and they'll most definitely expand in number, without the least bit of algae added

if anything-the logic should be that there would be a REDUCTION in pod population levels, as the scrubber (supposedly) got the water so clean so as to preclude any need to change water ever again! (per the original used car/insurance salesman type poster who started all of his thread on this and other bbs )

i will put forth the proposition that on a 'home scale' size system, compared to a good regimen of water changes and skimming-that ANY 'turf scrubber' will not give an efficient benefit return for the work involved in its setup or maintenance demands when added to those systems, and may even detract from water quality for certain parameters-like the various organic wastes that algaes produce, that the original poster is completely ignorant about

[SantaMonica]

Thanks Michael, this post is then for you

Here is the first screen builder ("varga" from another thread) to reach the cleaning stage:




Some comments from him along the way:

"Mine has very little growth on it, its been 4 days......more light?" (Which he then did)

"The light now is right on the screen, almost touching it"

"I'll have to reach in my tank to take out HA [for seeding] which is not easy! (Which he then did)

"We've now had a burst of growth in the last 24 hours; Here it is on day 6."

"We had another major burst of growth in the last 24 hours! its a redish/brownish stuff, Im guessing this is turf?" (No, it was brown diatoms)

"This thing is a great chiller!! forgot to turn the fan off last night, woke up to a 73 degree tank!"

[piercho]

This was my stationary ATS. It was in my sump and recieved all the water from the tank. I had a 7 gallon reverse carlson surge (RCSD) on my 65G tank that fired about every 45 seconds. Right after the RCSD fired, the tank level dropped and water stopped flowing to the sump. As the RCSD charged back up the ATS would start to fill as water began flowing over the tank overflow. This is the fill stage.


Here is the ATS removed for harvest. You can see the drain hole and the notch for the overflow return at the back. The fill/drain was pretty basic, the hole was sized to drain slower than the ATS filled when the overflow was flowing. When the overflow stopped after the RCSD fired, the ATS drained completely. I would harvest the ATS every 1 to 2 weeks.


Here is a cup of ATS squeezings. Over the six years the tank was in operation, it ran best when I was running the ATS and a 4" X 4' CC air skimmer. I could just feed and feed and stubborn display algae like Ventricaria and Caulerpa peltata would not appear. After I stopped using the ATS. after I moved the tank, Ventricaria and C. peltata came back in the display. I've run other algae filters but IMO the ATS performs the best.

I like that you are just jumping in an trying stuff. Too often people go on and on about trying ATS, surge devices, etc, but never execute.