Lighting for very tall tank

illumnae · 06/27/2020, 09:16 AM

Does anyone have recommendation for lights for an extremely tall tank, about 40-48 inches of water height? I just need to be able to see the fish in a fowlr setup, no need to keep any corals alive.

Sk8r · 06/27/2020, 09:19 AM

I have a 36 deep, and Ecolabs Radion unit does it, but they are, however, coral gear, and are spendy.

doonan75 · 06/27/2020, 10:28 AM

Metal halide pendant.

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doonan75 · 06/27/2020, 10:30 AM

I personally think fish look really good under ushio 10k MH.

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kharmaguru · 06/27/2020, 10:32 AM

Agree with halide pendant. Other narrow beam spotlights, par38 etc could work.

illumnae · 06/27/2020, 09:01 PM

I did consider t5 and mh before but prefer led for controllability.

Good to hear that radio's work at 36". How dim is it at 36"? Light dropoff is exponential in water right? Do you think it would be strong enough for another 12" of water height? Given that height penetration is about the power of each individual led and not the spread, do you think even an AI prime would do the trick given it uses similar wattage led diodes but just with less of them?

dzfish17 · 06/28/2020, 11:42 PM

I'm in the same situation (46" height) and am looking at the kessil 360ne as an option

oreo57 · 07/01/2020, 12:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by illumnae

Light dropoff is exponential in water right? Do you think it would be strong enough for another 12" of water height? Given that height penetration is about the power of each individual led and not the spread, do you think even an AI prime would do the trick given it uses similar wattage led diodes but just with less of them?

Depends on how you look at it..
A "panel" is not a point light source nor is it shining into "free space"..
It can be quite linear in certain ranges..
Examples (planted tank bulbs)

illumnae · 07/01/2020, 05:45 PM

Sorry I'm not very good at math, but doesn't the curve show it's exponential? Linear dropoff would be a straight line?

cody6766 · 07/01/2020, 07:53 PM

Extreme depth like that will want an over abundance of LEDs or a pretty dense MH array. There's nothing that says that you can't combine the two, but digging down 4' takes some intensity. LEDs are great for spot intensity or medium spread. MH is great for spot intensity and pretty good for spread. I don't have any experience deeper than 24", but I'd imagine you're going to need a lot of energy to get 4' down, no matter what lighting type you use. 400w metal halide with LED or T5 color supplementation would be my best guess for the best solution. The 400w MH could be replaced with LEDs, but your going to need at least 2x the fixtures that you'd need for a 2' deep tank...probably.

I've never tested this, but I've had a a 2' deep tank, MH, T5s and LEDs on it. Getting double the penetration would have been bat excrement crazy compared to what I had over my tank.

oreo57 · 07/02/2020, 12:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by illumnae

Sorry I'm not very good at math, but doesn't the curve show it's exponential? Linear dropoff would be a straight line?

Yes but I stated in ranges..

Quote:

The intensity of light radiating from a point source is inversely proportional to the square of the distance from the source; so, an object (of the same size) twice as far away receives only one-quarter the light in the same time period.

so let's take the ATI at 15 and 30 inches
138 @ 15" so should be 34.5 PAR at 30"
Chart says 60.....almost 2x the expected.

Also like this (see green lines on brown curve) Like the slope of the curve at different ranges:

See tanks don't exactly let down-welling light out that easy..

unlike free space so it throws off the calculations.

Take reading at 12" and divide by 4.. see how well it matches par at 24"

Maybe I'm looking at it the wrong way but point is we have tanks that behave more in a linear fashion than log BUT each has errors....
If you use 6" and 12" the PAR is more 1/2 than 1/4..

1/4 of 45 = 11.25 Measured.. 21 ect. ect..
go bigger..
6" 12" 24"
45, 11.25, 2.81
real;
45, 21, 7
1/2
45 22.5, 11.25

suppose it's sort of an odd way to look at it..

2x the distance 1/2 the PAR..... Linear probably isn't THE correct term..just smoother than expected.

doonan75 · 07/03/2020, 08:20 PM

Inverse square law?

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oreo57 · 07/03/2020, 10:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by doonan75

Inverse square law?

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Quote:

For example, the intensity of radiation from the Sun is 9126 watts per square meter at the distance of Mercury (0.387 AU); but only 1367 watts per square meter at the distance of Earth (1 AU)—an approximate threefold increase in distance results in an approximate ninefold decrease in intensity of radiation.

3 squared = 9..inverse 1/9

2x distance = 1/distance squared =1/4

Instead of losing twice the PPFD at twice the distance you lose 4x the "PAR" (PPFD)

doonan75 · 07/03/2020, 11:34 PM

Lol I thought what you were explaining sounded familiar. It's a shame that most people don't know what that is. It's literally basic high school science.

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doonan75 · 07/03/2020, 11:38 PM

Also I just went to Sea world and most of their deep tanks use MH as the primary lighting. The aquarium exhibit at the Manta coaster is amazing

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Vinny Kreyling · 07/04/2020, 08:19 AM

Not being "smart" in this technology means take with a grain of salt --
I have seen a tank lit by LED'S from 15 feet above here on RC by Timfish I believe.
He used 15 degree optics. Would this approach of running a narrow beam do the job?

oreo57 · 07/06/2020, 08:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vinny Kreyling

Not being "smart" in this technology means take with a grain of salt --
I have seen a tank lit by LED'S from 15 feet above here on RC by Timfish I believe.
He used 15 degree optics. Would this approach of running a narrow beam do the job?

Yes...
https://store.marinebeam.com/beam-angle-calculator-1/

15 degrees at 15 ft gives a spot size of 3.95ft..

doonan75 · 07/06/2020, 05:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vinny Kreyling

Not being "smart" in this technology means take with a grain of salt --
I have seen a tank lit by LED'S from 15 feet above here on RC by Timfish I believe.
He used 15 degree optics. Would this approach of running a narrow beam do the job?

I would think so since coral is not a concern, but I still like halides. I'm lucky to live near the gulf stream so our water is very clear and from my eye perception nothing beats a 10-20k MH for true representation.

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hhaase · 07/09/2020, 06:57 AM

Here's a question for the OP, hood or no hood?

My new tank is the first larger tank I've run without a hood, and I'm shocked at how much lighting it gets from the ceiling fixtures in the room. With the tank lights off, and only the room lights on, I can see everything absolutely perfectly.

For viewing the fish only, maybe just something like a track lighting set from the local home improvement store, with 10k LED's on it could do the trick.

-Hans

Uncle99 · 07/09/2020, 07:39 PM

That’s along way down, MH sure. But hot and expensive to run.
Chinese blackbox push hi pars and $150 bucks, so maybe.......(no corals)
Would need to be mounted low, say 6-8 inches off the water.

Visparspectra 165watt, see on Amazon...

illumnae · 07/15/2020, 09:44 PM

I'm sorry for the delayed response, things got crazy in life both at work and in tank/house planning. The tank will be in a fish room behind a feature wall with a hole cut out just for the tank, so the lights will be hung from the ceiling behind the wall. No good on the tank.

I've written to both Kessil and AI and they both recommended surprisingly low wattage lights if viewing is the only requirement (i.e. intensity not needed for corals). Kessil recommended 3x A160we and AI recommended 3-4x Primes. My tank maker showed me a picture of a fish only tank lit by just 2x AI Hydra52s (non HD) set at below 40% intensity so he's pretty confident of the penetration of the AI Primes given that they use the same wattage LEDs as the Hydra, just a lower number of them.

06/27/2020, 09:16 AM	#1
illumnae Registered Member Join Date: Sep 2012 Location: Singapore Posts: 322	Lighting for very tall tank Does anyone have recommendation for lights for an extremely tall tank, about 40-48 inches of water height? I just need to be able to see the fish in a fowlr setup, no need to keep any corals alive.

06/27/2020, 09:19 AM	#2
Sk8r RC Mod Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Spokane WA Posts: 34,628 Blog Entries: 55	I have a 36 deep, and Ecolabs Radion unit does it, but they are, however, coral gear, and are spendy. __________________ Sk8r Salinity 1.024-6; alkalinity 8.3-9.3 on KH scale; calcium 420; magnesium 1300, temp 78-80, nitrate .2. Ammonia 0. No filters: lps tank. Alk and cal won't rise if mg is low. Current Tank Info: 105g AquaVim wedge, yellow tang, sailfin blenny,royal gramma, ocellaris clown pair, yellow watchman, 100 microceriths, 25 tiny hermits, a 4" conch, 1" nassarius, recovering from 2 year hiatus with daily water change of 10%.

06/27/2020, 10:32 AM	#5
kharmaguru Registered Member Join Date: Jul 2010 Location: Oshawa, ON Posts: 125	Agree with halide pendant. Other narrow beam spotlights, par38 etc could work. __________________ Master Algae Grower Current Tank Info: 20 gallon mixed reef, mangroves, algae scrubber, DIY LEDs

06/28/2020, 11:42 PM	#7
dzfish17 Registered Member Join Date: Feb 2010 Location: Fresno,Ca. Posts: 2,545	I'm in the same situation (46" height) and am looking at the kessil 360ne as an option __________________ 600g (96x36x46) FOWLR

07/01/2020, 07:53 PM	#10
cody6766 Super Best Friends! Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: OKC, OK Posts: 3,772	Extreme depth like that will want an over abundance of LEDs or a pretty dense MH array. There's nothing that says that you can't combine the two, but digging down 4' takes some intensity. LEDs are great for spot intensity or medium spread. MH is great for spot intensity and pretty good for spread. I don't have any experience deeper than 24", but I'd imagine you're going to need a lot of energy to get 4' down, no matter what lighting type you use. 400w metal halide with LED or T5 color supplementation would be my best guess for the best solution. The 400w MH could be replaced with LEDs, but your going to need at least 2x the fixtures that you'd need for a 2' deep tank...probably. I've never tested this, but I've had a a 2' deep tank, MH, T5s and LEDs on it. Getting double the penetration would have been bat excrement crazy compared to what I had over my tank. __________________ "The moral is the chosen, not the forced; the understood, not the obeyed. The moral is the rational, and reason accepts no commandments." - John Galt Current Tank Info: Cadlights 60G Arisan II mixed reef with 2x MP40s and 24" ATI

06/27/2020, 10:28 AM	#3
doonan75 Registered Member Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: North Palm Beach FL Posts: 198	Metal halide pendant. Sent from my Moto G (4) using Tapatalk

06/27/2020, 10:30 AM	#4
doonan75 Registered Member Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: North Palm Beach FL Posts: 198	I personally think fish look really good under ushio 10k MH. Sent from my Moto G (4) using Tapatalk

06/27/2020, 09:01 PM	#6
illumnae Registered Member Join Date: Sep 2012 Location: Singapore Posts: 322	I did consider t5 and mh before but prefer led for controllability. Good to hear that radio's work at 36". How dim is it at 36"? Light dropoff is exponential in water right? Do you think it would be strong enough for another 12" of water height? Given that height penetration is about the power of each individual led and not the spread, do you think even an AI prime would do the trick given it uses similar wattage led diodes but just with less of them?

07/01/2020, 05:45 PM	#9
illumnae Registered Member Join Date: Sep 2012 Location: Singapore Posts: 322	Sorry I'm not very good at math, but doesn't the curve show it's exponential? Linear dropoff would be a straight line?

07/03/2020, 08:20 PM	#12
doonan75 Registered Member Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: North Palm Beach FL Posts: 198	Inverse square law? Sent from my Moto G (4) using Tapatalk

07/03/2020, 11:34 PM	#14
doonan75 Registered Member Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: North Palm Beach FL Posts: 198	Lol I thought what you were explaining sounded familiar. It's a shame that most people don't know what that is. It's literally basic high school science. Sent from my Moto G (4) using Tapatalk

07/03/2020, 11:38 PM	#15
doonan75 Registered Member Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: North Palm Beach FL Posts: 198	Also I just went to Sea world and most of their deep tanks use MH as the primary lighting. The aquarium exhibit at the Manta coaster is amazing Sent from my Moto G (4) using Tapatalk

07/04/2020, 08:19 AM	#16
Vinny Kreyling Registered Member Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Miller Place, NY Posts: 7,206	Not being "smart" in this technology means take with a grain of salt -- I have seen a tank lit by LED'S from 15 feet above here on RC by Timfish I believe. He used 15 degree optics. Would this approach of running a narrow beam do the job? __________________ 250 gallon mixed reef, 2 Reefbreeder's Photon V 2, Deepwater BLDC 12, DAS EX-3 Skimmer, MTC mini cal, 2-3/4" Sea Swirls, Aquacontroller & 6 Tunze pumps.

07/09/2020, 06:57 AM	#19
hhaase Registered Member Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: South Dakota Posts: 368	Here's a question for the OP, hood or no hood? My new tank is the first larger tank I've run without a hood, and I'm shocked at how much lighting it gets from the ceiling fixtures in the room. With the tank lights off, and only the room lights on, I can see everything absolutely perfectly. For viewing the fish only, maybe just something like a track lighting set from the local home improvement store, with 10k LED's on it could do the trick. -Hans __________________ This hobby would be easier if my local stores had more fish. https://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2701233 Current Tank Info: Slowly stocking up 150 gallons, only a little livestock right now.

07/09/2020, 07:39 PM	#20
Uncle99 Crab Free Zone Join Date: Sep 2017 Location: Ontario, Canada Posts: 2,906	That’s along way down, MH sure. But hot and expensive to run. Chinese blackbox push hi pars and $150 bucks, so maybe.......(no corals) Would need to be mounted low, say 6-8 inches off the water. Visparspectra 165watt, see on Amazon... Last edited by Uncle99; 07/09/2020 at 07:45 PM.

07/15/2020, 09:44 PM	#21
illumnae Registered Member Join Date: Sep 2012 Location: Singapore Posts: 322	I'm sorry for the delayed response, things got crazy in life both at work and in tank/house planning. The tank will be in a fish room behind a feature wall with a hole cut out just for the tank, so the lights will be hung from the ceiling behind the wall. No good on the tank. I've written to both Kessil and AI and they both recommended surprisingly low wattage lights if viewing is the only requirement (i.e. intensity not needed for corals). Kessil recommended 3x A160we and AI recommended 3-4x Primes. My tank maker showed me a picture of a fish only tank lit by just 2x AI Hydra52s (non HD) set at below 40% intensity so he's pretty confident of the penetration of the AI Primes given that they use the same wattage LEDs as the Hydra, just a lower number of them.