Old Vinegar Causing Cyano?

Horace · 09/11/2017, 02:11 PM

Hey folks,

I have a fairly fresh build that is having a significant outbreak of both Diatoms and Cyano. The Diatoms came first (as expected after the cycle), but I have never had Cyano come on this heavy. its covering about 75% of the sandbed that is not shaded, and its also on most of the rocks. The Diatoms are also long and stringy at this point, so the tank is looking like royal !&$%!!!!!

I have been dosing vinegar as well from about 2 weeks in to try to deal with some of the nitrate left over from the cycle, plus I have had good luck with carbon dosing in the past (although that was using Vodka).

My question is, did I bring on this cyano outbreak??? I am dosing fairly low levels of vinegar (10ml/day) for a 200g+ system. The vinegar isn't exactly new (probably a year old or so), so I am wondering if that may be the reason?

Anyway, my thoughts are to get my hands on some cheato (still have not been able to do that!), and start cultivating that in the sump, but am hesitant to keep dosing carbon for fear that its the cause of the Cyano.

Note: Nitrate is sitting around 25-30 right now. Not sure of the P04 yet, I don't have a good kit for that (no corals in the tank yet).

Thoughts?

mcgyvr · 09/11/2017, 02:25 PM

Nope...

Did you use "live sand"?

I expect "diatoms" after a cycle... Not dinos..

Horace · 09/11/2017, 02:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mcgyvr

Nope...

Did you use "live sand"?

I expect "diatoms" after a cycle... Not dinos..

Dinos = Diatoms

No, I don't believe in that live sand thing.

I did get some sand from a friend's tank, as well as a few ceramic media (which have since been returned) after the cycle completed.

mcgyvr · 09/11/2017, 02:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Horace

Dinos = Diatoms

.

No..
Dinos = dinoflagellates

Dinos does not equal diatoms..

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dinoflagellate
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diatom

Horace · 09/11/2017, 02:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mcgyvr

No..
Dinos = dinoflagellates

Dinos does not equal diatoms..

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dinoflagellate
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diatom

Regardless, you knew what I meant

bertoni · 09/11/2017, 03:18 PM

Diatoms are handled easily by snails. Trochus are happy to eat them, for example. Dinoflagellates can be more problematic. I take it the tank has dinoflagellates? Personally, I'd just wait a while. Stopping the vinegar might help, if it is encouraging the bloom. That's hard to determine, though. Year-old vinegar should be fine.

Horace · 09/11/2017, 05:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bertoni

Diatoms are handled easily by snails. Trochus are happy to eat them, for example. Dinoflagellates can be more problematic. I take it the tank has dinoflagellates? Personally, I'd just wait a while. Stopping the vinegar might help, if it is encouraging the bloom. That's hard to determine, though. Year-old vinegar should be fine.

i meant diatoms....and mistakenly put dinos instead. I dont have dinos. I do need to buy some clean up crew though. I will keep the Trochus in mind. Ive not got those kind previously.

Either way the carbon dosing seems to be making the cyano worse, which vinegar isnt supposed to do.....but I am guessing it is regardless. I see some folks dose some MB7 to outcompete the cyano, and I may give that a shot if this doesnt start to clear up soon.

My first plan is to get some good cheato going in the sump. Ultimately I would like to get an ATS going, but that is a project I am just not ready to undertake yet.

bertoni · 09/11/2017, 05:53 PM

Vinegar might be less likely to feed cyanobacterial blooms, but different tanks have different reactions. I'd cut back if I were convinced it was causing a problem. New tanks often show such blooms, though.

karimwassef · 09/11/2017, 11:00 PM

what would make "old" vinegar different from new vinegar?

It's acetic acid and water, right? What could it decompose into?

If it got polluted maybe? but I don't know of a pollutant that would contribute specifically to just cyano...

did it get contaminated with silica sand and that contributed to diatoms?

sorry- more questions than answers.

Horace · 09/12/2017, 09:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by karimwassef

what would make "old" vinegar different from new vinegar?

It's acetic acid and water, right? What could it decompose into?

If it got polluted maybe? but I don't know of a pollutant that would contribute specifically to just cyano...

did it get contaminated with silica sand and that contributed to diatoms?

sorry- more questions than answers.

I think I read something about bacteria getting into it and using up some of the carbon. I will see if I can dig that up

Sent from my Nexus 6 using Tapatalk

ajm83 · 09/12/2017, 09:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Horace

The Diatoms are also long and stringy at this point, so the tank is looking like royal !&$%!!!!!

I know you said you posted the word 'dinos' by mistake, but your description here also sounds like dinos, can you post a pic?

bertoni · 09/12/2017, 01:43 PM

Hmm, I agree that diatoms will not form strings by themselves. They have a solid silicate test (shell) so they aren't sticky. They will grow in combination with dinoflagellates and cyanobacteria, though.

mcgyvr · 09/12/2017, 03:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ajm83

I know you said you posted the word 'dinos' by mistake, but your description here also sounds like dinos, can you post a pic?

Well.. he said dinos but meant diatoms.. so lets also assume he said dinos but meant stringy cyano..

I think horace (Kurt) may be using the old vinegar because he drank all the new vodka

I thought overtime vinegar (if left open) will absorb moisture from the air and the acetic acid will decompose both leading to a less acidic solution..

taricha · 09/12/2017, 07:42 PM

OP has dinos (I'd bet), regardless of what he meant to type ;-)
Stringy diatoms = super crazy rare
Stringy dinoflagellates = very annoyingly common.
Post pics, or better yet, Google paper towel dino test, and find out.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I337 using Tapatalk

Horace · 09/12/2017, 09:10 PM

Ok, so I did the paper towel test. It looks like 95% or more of the algae did not make it through the towel. The water looks quite clear actually. I am waiting to see if anything happens....

Horace · 09/12/2017, 09:12 PM

Here is a vid of the tank. I took the lights off tonight to work on the canopy. I notice a good deal of the red slime on the sandbed is GREATLY diminished. I would say by about 90%, and the lights were only off for about 6 hours. The brown algae seems to be about the same....

Not sure that it matters, but all the rock was dry prior to putting it in the tank.

Here is a vid:

bertoni · 09/12/2017, 09:48 PM

I'll try to be careful with my terms. My personal guess is that you are seeing cyanobacteria, because dinoflagellates are said produce a lot of bubbles. Unfortunately, I don't know how many of those claims were backed up by an id with a microscope. Whether the tank has cyanobacteria or dinoflagellates is a secondary issue for now. With a bit of luck, the pest will go away with a bit of time or work.

I might consider siphoning out as much of the slime as is easy to get. That'll help export nutrients. Sometimes, a bit of GFO helps, but not always.

Horace · 09/12/2017, 10:00 PM

Well it has been almost an hour and the water still looks very clear, i dont see any algae reforming....so I am hoping that means its NOT Dinos

At this point my bet is on brown cyano, given i know for sure i have cyano all over.

Horace · 09/13/2017, 04:48 AM

Cup was left under a light all night, water is still clear. I am guessing this is just cyano brought on by extra carbon....

Sent from my Nexus 6 using Tapatalk

mcgyvr · 09/13/2017, 04:52 AM

Welcome to a normal new tanks "ugly stages"

taricha · 09/13/2017, 05:37 AM

Thanks for doing test and posting vid. (I can't see pics) The vid and description sure looks and sounds like dinos to me - with cyano too.
I guess I should stop recommending paper towel test, because it seems like more paper towels lately are blocking everything no matter what. Ideally it should block cyano and allow diatoms and dinos through, and if dinos - it re-clumps on the other side.

Variation, just pull some samples, and shake until really well mixed and let it sit, in a few minutes, dinos would reclump into blobs and strings.

I could be wrong, so If you don't have anything in the tank that's super sensitive, feel free to just treat it like normal uglies/cyano and deal with it that way. If it's dinos, you'll still have it well after normal "uglies" disappear.

karimwassef · 09/13/2017, 06:38 AM

Maybe we need a specific paper test - like "charmin ultra strong" or maybe coffee filters

Horace · 09/13/2017, 07:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by taricha

Thanks for doing test and posting vid. (I can't see pics) The vid and description sure looks and sounds like dinos to me - with cyano too.
I guess I should stop recommending paper towel test, because it seems like more paper towels lately are blocking everything no matter what. Ideally it should block cyano and allow diatoms and dinos through, and if dinos - it re-clumps on the other side.

Variation, just pull some samples, and shake until really well mixed and let it sit, in a few minutes, dinos would reclump into blobs and strings.

I could be wrong, so If you don't have anything in the tank that's super sensitive, feel free to just treat it like normal uglies/cyano and deal with it that way. If it's dinos, you'll still have it well after normal "uglies" disappear.

Yeah I can try siphoning more off and see if it reclumps....you are right, that the paper towel did seem to filter everything out.....that water was quite clean, when the description said it should be a bit brown after. I will give it a shot after work.

Horace · 09/13/2017, 07:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by taricha

Thanks for doing test and posting vid. (I can't see pics) The vid and description sure looks and sounds like dinos to me - with cyano too.
I guess I should stop recommending paper towel test, because it seems like more paper towels lately are blocking everything no matter what. Ideally it should block cyano and allow diatoms and dinos through, and if dinos - it re-clumps on the other side.

Variation, just pull some samples, and shake until really well mixed and let it sit, in a few minutes, dinos would reclump into blobs and strings.

I could be wrong, so If you don't have anything in the tank that's super sensitive, feel free to just treat it like normal uglies/cyano and deal with it that way. If it's dinos, you'll still have it well after normal "uglies" disappear.

From my reading, distinguishing between dinos and cyano is often nearly impossible unless you do so under a microscope. I will do the clump test again and hopefully i can put that to rest. Otherwise I will be going dark on the tank and just lighting my cheato (still dont have any yet) only for a while until my nitrate/phosphate are to the point that no algae/bacteria will live....

Thankfully I dont have any corals yet, so going dark isnt a big deal. The fish will get over it

taricha · 09/13/2017, 05:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by karimwassef

Maybe we need a specific paper test - like "charmin ultra strong" or maybe coffee filters

I think coffee filter is promising, or bigger like filter pad, or media bag. Need to test it though. Honestly anything with filter size between 50 and 500 microns should let shaken dinos through, and stop cyano strands.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Horace

From my reading, distinguishing between dinos and cyano is often nearly impossible unless you do so under a microscope. I will do the clump test again and hopefully i can put that to rest. Otherwise I will be going dark on the tank and just lighting my cheato (still dont have any yet) only for a while until my nitrate/phosphate are to the point that no algae/bacteria will live....

Thankfully I dont have any corals yet, so going dark isnt a big deal. The fish will get over it

There are naked eye differences, but they are hard to describe in text to someone else, also we ought to just find the H2o2 concentration that makes cyano bubble, because dinos/diatoms don't. That'd be a simple test.

You can lights out if you want, in my experience it just kicks the can down the road.

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09/11/2017, 02:11 PM	#1
Horace Registered Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Atlanta Posts: 5,009	Old Vinegar Causing Cyano? Hey folks, I have a fairly fresh build that is having a significant outbreak of both Diatoms and Cyano. The Diatoms came first (as expected after the cycle), but I have never had Cyano come on this heavy. its covering about 75% of the sandbed that is not shaded, and its also on most of the rocks. The Diatoms are also long and stringy at this point, so the tank is looking like royal !&$%!!!!! I have been dosing vinegar as well from about 2 weeks in to try to deal with some of the nitrate left over from the cycle, plus I have had good luck with carbon dosing in the past (although that was using Vodka). My question is, did I bring on this cyano outbreak??? I am dosing fairly low levels of vinegar (10ml/day) for a 200g+ system. The vinegar isn't exactly new (probably a year old or so), so I am wondering if that may be the reason? Anyway, my thoughts are to get my hands on some cheato (still have not been able to do that!), and start cultivating that in the sump, but am hesitant to keep dosing carbon for fear that its the cause of the Cyano. Note: Nitrate is sitting around 25-30 right now. Not sure of the P04 yet, I don't have a good kit for that (no corals in the tank yet). Thoughts? __________________ -Horace Pinker Current Tank Info: New 180g Mixed SPS Build in progress Last edited by Horace; 09/11/2017 at 02:29 PM.

09/11/2017, 02:25 PM	#2
mcgyvr Registered Member Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: North Carolina Posts: 20,050	Nope... Did you use "live sand"? I expect "diatoms" after a cycle... Not dinos.. __________________ Who me?

09/11/2017, 03:18 PM	#6
bertoni RC Mod Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Mountain View, CA, USA Posts: 88,616	Diatoms are handled easily by snails. Trochus are happy to eat them, for example. Dinoflagellates can be more problematic. I take it the tank has dinoflagellates? Personally, I'd just wait a while. Stopping the vinegar might help, if it is encouraging the bloom. That's hard to determine, though. Year-old vinegar should be fine. __________________ Jonathan Bertoni

09/11/2017, 05:53 PM	#8
bertoni RC Mod Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Mountain View, CA, USA Posts: 88,616	Vinegar might be less likely to feed cyanobacterial blooms, but different tanks have different reactions. I'd cut back if I were convinced it was causing a problem. New tanks often show such blooms, though. __________________ Jonathan Bertoni

09/11/2017, 11:00 PM	#9
karimwassef Registered Member Join Date: May 2004 Location: Dallas, TX Posts: 11,033	what would make "old" vinegar different from new vinegar? It's acetic acid and water, right? What could it decompose into? If it got polluted maybe? but I don't know of a pollutant that would contribute specifically to just cyano... did it get contaminated with silica sand and that contributed to diatoms? sorry- more questions than answers. __________________ Failure isn't an option It's a requirement. 660g 380inwall+280smp/surge S/L/Soft/Maxima/RBTA/Clown/Chromis/Anthias/Tang/Mandarin/Jawfish/Goby/Wrasse/D'back. DIY 12' Skimmer ActuatedSurge ConcreteScape

09/12/2017, 01:43 PM	#12
bertoni RC Mod Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Mountain View, CA, USA Posts: 88,616	Hmm, I agree that diatoms will not form strings by themselves. They have a solid silicate test (shell) so they aren't sticky. They will grow in combination with dinoflagellates and cyanobacteria, though. __________________ Jonathan Bertoni

09/12/2017, 07:42 PM	#14
taricha Registered Member Join Date: Mar 2010 Location: NE Miss Posts: 608	OP has dinos (I'd bet), regardless of what he meant to type ;-) Stringy diatoms = super crazy rare Stringy dinoflagellates = very annoyingly common. Post pics, or better yet, Google paper towel dino test, and find out. Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I337 using Tapatalk

09/12/2017, 09:10 PM	#15
Horace Registered Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Atlanta Posts: 5,009	Ok, so I did the paper towel test. It looks like 95% or more of the algae did not make it through the towel. The water looks quite clear actually. I am waiting to see if anything happens.... __________________ -Horace Pinker Current Tank Info: New 180g Mixed SPS Build in progress Last edited by Horace; 09/13/2017 at 08:05 AM.

09/12/2017, 09:12 PM	#16
Horace Registered Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Atlanta Posts: 5,009	Here is a vid of the tank. I took the lights off tonight to work on the canopy. I notice a good deal of the red slime on the sandbed is GREATLY diminished. I would say by about 90%, and the lights were only off for about 6 hours. The brown algae seems to be about the same.... Not sure that it matters, but all the rock was dry prior to putting it in the tank. Here is a vid: __________________ -Horace Pinker Current Tank Info: New 180g Mixed SPS Build in progress

09/12/2017, 09:48 PM	#17
bertoni RC Mod Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Mountain View, CA, USA Posts: 88,616	I'll try to be careful with my terms. My personal guess is that you are seeing cyanobacteria, because dinoflagellates are said produce a lot of bubbles. Unfortunately, I don't know how many of those claims were backed up by an id with a microscope. Whether the tank has cyanobacteria or dinoflagellates is a secondary issue for now. With a bit of luck, the pest will go away with a bit of time or work. I might consider siphoning out as much of the slime as is easy to get. That'll help export nutrients. Sometimes, a bit of GFO helps, but not always. __________________ Jonathan Bertoni

09/12/2017, 10:00 PM	#18
Horace Registered Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Atlanta Posts: 5,009	Well it has been almost an hour and the water still looks very clear, i dont see any algae reforming....so I am hoping that means its NOT Dinos At this point my bet is on brown cyano, given i know for sure i have cyano all over. __________________ -Horace Pinker Current Tank Info: New 180g Mixed SPS Build in progress

09/13/2017, 04:48 AM	#19
Horace Registered Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Atlanta Posts: 5,009	Cup was left under a light all night, water is still clear. I am guessing this is just cyano brought on by extra carbon.... Sent from my Nexus 6 using Tapatalk __________________ -Horace Pinker Current Tank Info: New 180g Mixed SPS Build in progress

09/13/2017, 04:52 AM	#20
mcgyvr Registered Member Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: North Carolina Posts: 20,050	Welcome to a normal new tanks "ugly stages" __________________ Who me?

09/13/2017, 05:37 AM	#21
taricha Registered Member Join Date: Mar 2010 Location: NE Miss Posts: 608	Thanks for doing test and posting vid. (I can't see pics) The vid and description sure looks and sounds like dinos to me - with cyano too. I guess I should stop recommending paper towel test, because it seems like more paper towels lately are blocking everything no matter what. Ideally it should block cyano and allow diatoms and dinos through, and if dinos - it re-clumps on the other side. Variation, just pull some samples, and shake until really well mixed and let it sit, in a few minutes, dinos would reclump into blobs and strings. I could be wrong, so If you don't have anything in the tank that's super sensitive, feel free to just treat it like normal uglies/cyano and deal with it that way. If it's dinos, you'll still have it well after normal "uglies" disappear.

09/13/2017, 06:38 AM	#22
karimwassef Registered Member Join Date: May 2004 Location: Dallas, TX Posts: 11,033	Maybe we need a specific paper test - like "charmin ultra strong" or maybe coffee filters __________________ Failure isn't an option It's a requirement. 660g 380inwall+280smp/surge S/L/Soft/Maxima/RBTA/Clown/Chromis/Anthias/Tang/Mandarin/Jawfish/Goby/Wrasse/D'back. DIY 12' Skimmer ActuatedSurge ConcreteScape