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Unread 09/06/2007, 10:04 AM   #1
schigara
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3 weeks into cycle......advice please

Hey guys,

I have 2 years experience but but been out of it for about a year and have forgotten a few things like how much ammonia to add when cycling.

I am cycling my 75 and using all 100-120lbs of my dead rock and 80lbs dry aragonite. I got the ammonia started using pure ammonia and got 2lbs of live reef rubble from LFS and placed throughout my base rock and in the refugium. I think I used way to much ammonia though. The tank is 75g and the sump and fuge is a 55g in the stand and I used about 2 cups of ammonia.

Needless to say, the ammonia spiked off the chart. One week after adding ammonia, the Nitrites spiked and then started seeing nitrates a few days later. The Ammonia and Nitrites are still way high and Nitrates are 15 after changing about 30 gallons with new saltwater. I am using RO/DI.

Should I just let it keep going till it naturally consumes all the Ammonia and Nitrites or do another water change?

I learned the first time around not to rush anything but just curious as to how long it would take to naturally cycle since I added way too much ammonia.


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Unread 09/06/2007, 10:15 AM   #2
papagimp
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Well while I wouldn't have added ammonia directly to my tank to start a cycle, I guess that's one way to do it. Just let it run its course, probably going to take a little longer than usual due to the high ammounts of ammonia in there but I'd imagine that would only help increase the bioload capacity after the cycle is completed. A water change probably wouldn't hurt anything, but if it were my system, I'd just let it run for a couple months like this, the added maturation time surely isn't going to hurt anything. Hard to give you a timeline on how long it may take since i've never used ammonia like that, but just guessing, I'd say at least a month, possibly two. Could take longer depending on how high those levels actually reached...off the charts can be a little vague since 100ppm and 1000ppm are both "off the charts".


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Unread 09/06/2007, 10:24 AM   #3
schigara
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papa

I tried using a prawn once before but the smell was horrible. It is just so much easier to directly put in ammonia than wait for something to rot to get it. Although, finding truly pure ammonia with no surfactants can be a mission.


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Unread 09/06/2007, 10:28 AM   #4
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Why add anything? I believe the rock and sand should be enough to kick start the cycle. The prawn/ammonia/fish method is old news.


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Unread 09/06/2007, 10:41 AM   #5
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What are the readings now? Like papagimp said, "way high" is a little vague. The more specifics we get the better.


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Unread 09/06/2007, 10:55 AM   #6
wooden_reefer
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Re: 3 weeks into cycle......advice please

Quote:
Originally posted by schigara
Hey guys,

I have 2 years experience but but been out of it for about a year and have forgotten a few things like how much ammonia to add when cycling.

I am cycling my 75 and using all 100-120lbs of my dead rock and 80lbs dry aragonite. I got the ammonia started using pure ammonia and got 2lbs of live reef rubble from LFS and placed throughout my base rock and in the refugium. I think I used way to much ammonia though. The tank is 75g and the sump and fuge is a 55g in the stand and I used about 2 cups of ammonia.

Needless to say, the ammonia spiked off the chart. One week after adding ammonia, the Nitrites spiked and then started seeing nitrates a few days later. The Ammonia and Nitrites are still way high and Nitrates are 15 after changing about 30 gallons with new saltwater. I am using RO/DI.

Should I just let it keep going till it naturally consumes all the Ammonia and Nitrites or do another water change?

I learned the first time around not to rush anything but just curious as to how long it would take to naturally cycle since I added way too much ammonia.
IMO, just wait it out and test again. You may be in great shape after all. If you see a great peak of nitrite and then a complete drop to zero, you should be in good shape. Consider changing all the water AFTER cycling.

What is in two cups of ammonia? An aquarist shouldn't add ammonia without a handle on how much, if only approximately.

Add to achieve several parts per million. Ammonia level need not be high during cycling, but there must be accumulation of ammonia for enough time for nitrosonomas population to increase greatly. 0.5 ppm for weeks is OK.

On the subject of source of ammonia, I don't add inorganic ammonia to cycle. I believe in miscellanous bacteria population. Nitrosonomas and Nitrobactor are not the only beneificial bacteria. There is a multitude of different bacteria. Decay of fish food simulates the actual conditions of livestock metabolic activities better than inorganic ammonia, IMO.

To test the nitrification capacity of a cycled (?) filter, I use inorganic ammonia. Then I can time it better and do not have to estimate time of ammonification.


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Unread 09/06/2007, 10:59 AM   #7
schigara
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It is still showing the highest reading on my AP tests of 8pp ammonia and 5ppm Nitrites.




Quote:
Originally posted by Mavrk
What are the readings now? Like papagimp said, "way high" is a little vague. The more specifics we get the better.



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Unread 09/06/2007, 11:13 AM   #8
wooden_reefer
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Quote:
Originally posted by zimmy1979
Why add anything? I believe the rock and sand should be enough to kick start the cycle. The prawn/ammonia/fish method is old news.
What is your rational? Bear in mind that the live rock in question is old and has nothing on it to decay to give ammonia.

No cycling will happen when there is no ammonia. Ammonia will have to be introduced one way or another.

In a reef tank, a weak cycle can often not matter much with mini-cycling. Add a small amount of livestock with the accompanying bacteria and then wait for the livestock to tolerate low level of ammonia and the bacteria population to stepwise catch-up.

In even medium sized fish, mini-cycling is really new-tank syndrome. This is a very bad idea. In a tank with fish, one should thoroughly cycle, to overcomepensate. Nitrification bacteria will not all die suddenly for lack of ammonia or nitrite. One can easily in practice make sure that fish is never exposed to any ammonia by establishing very robust nitrification before introducing the first and the last fish. I will never accept mini-cycling for my fish.


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Unread 09/06/2007, 11:29 AM   #9
wooden_reefer
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Quote:
Originally posted by schigara
It is still showing the highest reading on my AP tests of 8pp ammonia and 5ppm Nitrites.
Dilute the water ten fold with RO water and test again.

Put one vail full of tank water in a clean cup or bowl. Fill the bowl with nine vail full of RO water ....

Hope the diluted mixture is within range.


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Unread 09/06/2007, 11:37 AM   #10
schigara
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Exactly. My rock has been dry and dead for over a year and the sand is new dry sand. The only seed bacteria came from the 2lbs of reef rubble. I already paid over 1500 for my rock 3 years ago and wasn't about to pay again.

My LFS told me I should buy about 50lbs from him to get my cycle going. Screw that! Another $400 just to save some time! He also tried to sell me a VHO retrofit setup and also said that was the best besides MH's UNTIL the T5's come out!!!!!!!!! Needless to say, I already knew T5's came out a long time ago and I will not visit his store again.

He has a very good selection of livestock but I won't deal with a store who's owner flat out lies to try to sell hardware he has in stock.


Quote:
Originally posted by wooden_reefer
What is your rational? Bear in mind that the live rock in question is old and has nothing on it to decay to give ammonia.

No cycling will happen when there is no ammonia. Ammonia will have to be introduced one way or another.

In a reef tank, a weak cycle can often not matter much with mini-cycling. Add a small amount of livestock with the accompanying bacteria and then wait for the livestock to tolerate low level of ammonia and the bacteria population to stepwise catch-up.

In even medium sized fish, mini-cycling is really new-tank syndrome. This is a very bad idea. In a tank with fish, one should thoroughly cycle, to overcomepensate. Nitrification bacteria will not all die suddenly for lack of ammonia or nitrite. One can easily in practice make sure that fish is never exposed to any ammonia by establishing very robust nitrification before introducing the first and the last fish. I will never accept mini-cycling for my fish.



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Unread 09/06/2007, 11:39 AM   #11
schigara
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Thanks wooden_reefer, that never crossed my mind. I will do now.

Quote:
Originally posted by wooden_reefer
Dilute the water ten fold with RO water and test again.

Put one vail full of tank water in a clean cup or bowl. Fill the bowl with nine vail full of RO water ....

Hope the diluted mixture is within range.



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Unread 09/06/2007, 11:45 AM   #12
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Wooden_reefer, what a great idea! wish someone had given me that advice when i was having severly high nitrate problems a few months back.


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Unread 09/06/2007, 11:53 AM   #13
schigara
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I think some of us tend to look for complicated solutions when their is a simple one staring us in the face and just don't see it.


Quote:
Originally posted by papagimp
Wooden_reefer, what a great idea! wish someone had given me that advice when i was having severly high nitrate problems a few months back.



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Unread 09/06/2007, 12:05 PM   #14
schigara
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I guess it was actually at 4ppm ammonia. Very hard to tell with the color gradients on the test.

I mixed 1:1 of RO and tank water and it reads 2ppm then I mixed 2:1 RO and tank water and it shows 1ppm.


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Unread 09/06/2007, 12:08 PM   #15
wooden_reefer
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Quote:
Originally posted by papagimp
Wooden_reefer, what a great idea! wish someone had given me that advice when i was having severly high nitrate problems a few months back.
Nitrate can be a bit different. Natural freshwater supply can have 10-20 ppm nitrate depending on the locale. RO does not remove all nitrate.

You have to first test the RO water for nitrate and then do some math. This method would still work if you do the math.

Or dilute with distilled water.



Last edited by wooden_reefer; 09/06/2007 at 12:45 PM.
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Unread 09/06/2007, 12:13 PM   #16
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I don't think you mentioned the pH of your water. Have you checked? If you added too much the pH may have gone way up, and thus retarding the growth of the necessary cycling bacteria...hence cycling problems.

Just a thought.

Jason


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Unread 09/06/2007, 12:18 PM   #17
schigara
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I checked yesterday with a Salifert test and was 8.1 PH

Quote:
Originally posted by Piscator
I don't think you mentioned the pH of your water. Have you checked? If you added too much the pH may have gone way up, and thus retarding the growth of the necessary cycling bacteria...hence cycling problems.

Just a thought.

Jason



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Unread 09/06/2007, 12:21 PM   #18
wooden_reefer
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Quote:
Originally posted by Piscator
I don't think you mentioned the pH of your water. Have you checked? If you added too much the pH may have gone way up, and thus retarding the growth of the necessary cycling bacteria...hence cycling problems.

Just a thought.

Jason
Ph, as long as it is reasonable, may or may not affect the rate of growth, but certainly not critically.

I have not done so but I believe cycling can be done in freshwater and the salinity slowly raised. I would feed the bacteria with ammonia while I raise the salinity to test out.

The seed of bacteria can be obtained from some garden soil. I have done so, but did not cycle in freshwater. I raised the salinity slowly at the start of the cycle. A bit different.


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Unread 09/06/2007, 12:25 PM   #19
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I too am three weeks into cycle. I did start with LR and LS, and have gotten pretty good advice here, I must say. My NH3 is down to 0, last time I checked, Saturday, NO2 was 0.25, and NO3 was around 100. Then I get this WILD algal bloom. I killed my lights, and now the algae seems to be dying off nicely. The water is pretty darned cloudy though. I guess it's diatom bloom too. The skimmate looks pretty nasty and I am posting that on my profile, so if anyone can tell me if this is good, or should it be weaker, I would greatly appreciate it.


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Unread 09/06/2007, 12:29 PM   #20
schigara
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That would be great if that can be done to avoid wasting the salt during cycling.


Quote:
[i]I have not done so but I believe cycling can be done in freshwater and the salinity slowly raised. I would feed the bacteria with ammonia while I raise the salinity to test out.

The seed of bacteria can be obtained from some garden soil. I have done so, but did not cycle in freshwater. I raised the salinity slowly at the start of the cycle. A bit different. [/B]



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Unread 09/06/2007, 12:52 PM   #21
wooden_reefer
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Quote:
Originally posted by schigara
That would be great if that can be done to avoid wasting the salt during cycling.
This method requires a medium other than uncured natural live rock. Freshwater will kill most invertebrates on LR, this is even less desirable than killing some with ammonia from decay of dead friends. The mental handicap is that many people tie (uncured) live rock with cycling.

For this (freshwater) method to work, one has to first use a separate (temperary) medium.

Cycle, change all the freshwater, adjust salinity, add uncured live rock, then slowly withdraw the temporary medium would be the most logical approach, IMO.


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