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Old 09/20/2008, 08:25 AM   #1
Gary Majchrzak
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Question Lanthanum chloride

we have some savvy folks in this neck of the woods. Anybody here ever use this stuff?


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Old 09/20/2008, 09:24 AM   #2
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Tagging along. All I know is what Wikepedia says. That is that it removes phosphate from swimming pools but it also blocks +ion exchange channels for things such as calcium. Maybe Randy Farley can give you more in the Chemistry forum.


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Old 09/20/2008, 10:06 AM   #3
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I already know Randy's slant on Lanthanum, Tom
Looking for real life experiences now.


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Old 09/20/2008, 10:57 AM   #4
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Care to share a summary of Randy's slant? Thanks!


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Old 09/20/2008, 12:50 PM   #5
Gary Majchrzak
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Quote:
Originally posted by Randy Holmes-Farley
I'm not a fan of lanthanum for several reasons. The first is that I do not know whether the elevated levels of lanthanum that may result in the tank water are totally benign for every organism we keep It may be, but it may not be.

My bigger concern is that the lanthanum phosphate is not actually removed from the system. Perhaps some is skimmed out, but I expect a lot of it just piles up on the bottom of the tank. It may become available through various processes (like passing through the gut of a sea cucumber), so I would prefer to see it actually exported. I have the same concern with dosing soluble iron to bind phosphate vs using GFO to bind phosphate (which is exported).

All that said, it may be a fine way to go. Much to my dismay, since it competes with my products (Renagel and Renvela; sevelamer hydrochloride and carbonate), lanthanum carbonate is used in people to bind phosphate from the GI tract.
because I search RC extensively I know there's at least one URS member that's aware of Lanthanum's use in aquaria...


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Old 09/20/2008, 01:17 PM   #6
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Aquality Symposium - 1st International Symposium of Water Quality & Treatment in Zoos & Aquaria

Lanthanum chloride for PO4 removal:
http://aqualitysymposium.org/phpBB2/...f5a5f9f99e4994


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Old 09/20/2008, 05:21 PM   #7
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I've used it Gary (though you probably know that already, Obi-Wan)

I've tried P04 minus (from the makers of AZNO3) as well as "Phos-Free" from the pool store, a mix of lanthanum cloride and sulfate.

Best results were dripping via my top-off drum right before the skimmer intake--dropped Phosphate levels nicely, no ill effects noted over months, and more cost effective than GFO IMO. I do think the complexed phosphate is skimmable (skimmate looked different and stunk like sulfur) and the sump seemed like the best place to drip the stuff. Totally unscientific, but I read that Atlantis aquarium does something similar.

Since I can't leave well enough alone, I'm now playing with using saturated Kalk liberally spiked with Vinegar as my topoff, having taken my calcium reactor offline. The vinegar also acts as a carbon source, driving bacterial growth which is then skimmed out. I've kept nitrate and PO4 at undetectable levels for months with this method, realizing that doesn't mean much, but have noted dramatic improvement in the layer of crud on my REALLY old live rock, which to me means I'm way ahead in the battle with organics.

My take is that lanthanum is a fine way to drop phosphate to undetectable levels, especially by dripping right in front of a good skimmer set wet. Long term, have no idea what it might do to the tank but in my case noted no ill effects.

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Old 09/20/2008, 06:06 PM   #8
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thank you


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Old 09/20/2008, 08:17 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally posted by HighlandReefer
Aquality Symposium - 1st International Symposium of Water Quality & Treatment in Zoos & Aquaria

Lanthanum chloride for PO4 removal:
http://aqualitysymposium.org/phpBB2/...f5a5f9f99e4994
Nice site tahnkyou.


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Old 09/20/2008, 09:04 PM   #10
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Gary , Nice thread. I didn't know about lanthanum. Let me know if you use it and how it works for you. I'm not able to keep my phosphates under .15 lately. With a large system it requires a lot of gfo. I also feed well and have a substantial fish population and run a few refugia with chaetoprpha . I'm good on algae control but would like to do better for sps.Don't think I want to go back top carbon dosing.


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Old 10/27/2008, 07:20 PM   #11
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results are in: this works

reason I tried it: heavy feedings of fishes and anemones in an SPS reef aquarium result in high PO4 levels. GFO is an expense.

quick summary of the methodology I used: lanthanum chloride was diluted in RO water (5ml to 1 litre for treating roughly 300 gallons of water) then slow dripped into water to be treated as it enters a 10 micron filter sock (in place of a sand filter that is often used on larger systems). My protein skimmer also processed this treated water.
Lanthanum chloride acts as a flocculant and binds to phosphates upon contact. This stuff can clog a 10 micron bag in no time!

If you dose too fast or too much the water will get cloudy and sensitive Tangs will start breathing heavy. (Dose it really heavy and I've heard it can cloud up the surfaces of an aquarium.)

regrets: I don't have a way to test low range phosphates so results are based on anecdotal observations (for now. Wanna give it a try, Tom?)

results after one month (two treatments per week equaling eight treatments) SPS coloration, growth and polyp extension much improved. Algae eating Blenny getting skinny due to lack of food.


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Old 10/27/2008, 07:34 PM   #12
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Where'd you get yours Gary? Pool store or reef store?


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Old 10/27/2008, 07:39 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally posted by SkiFletch
Where'd you get yours Gary? Pool store or reef store?
pool supply online. Seaklear (brand) phosphate remover.


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Old 10/27/2008, 07:56 PM   #14
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Thanks for sharing that Gary. Sounds like you found a way to control the precipitant without a fancy sand filter.
I've got my phosphates down below .1 with gfo and an extra macro refugia. I feed a relatively large number of fish and corals well. As for trying lanthanum chloride, I'm a little worried about the lantanum that would go into the aquarium, since it's long term effects are unknown. But maybe , it's just an unrealistic worry and no more harmful than the bit of iron that you get with gfo. It would clearly be more economical and perhaps faster. Maybe I could set up some sort of experiment in another tank but I'm not that structured, Besides your experience and the litterature is pretty clear about it's effectiveness in removing orthophosphate so I don't think my test would add anything you don't already know except perhaps a few numbers regarding dosing levels which may already be out there.

BTW, how is your macroalgae responding? I find my chaeto slowed down a bit. I dosed a little chelated iron and it picked up .It's still growing at PO4 less than.1ppm but nusiance algae is gone.

There is a question we can look at though . When you reduce phosphates significantly? Which we have. What is the impact is if any on nitrate?
Most of the organisms( algaes, bacteria, even corals,etc) that consume nitrate consume phosphate as well. If they are limited by PO4 depletion will nitrate rise at least untill the biological filter adjust? Will any rise be significant enough to warrant the use of extra carbon, wet skimming ,purigen or extra RSDBs?Test kits for nitrate being what they are,largley variable makes it hard ti figure this out but it seems mine has gone up .


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Old 10/27/2008, 08:02 PM   #15
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Good to know. Will drop by my local on the way home


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Old 10/27/2008, 08:12 PM   #16
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Quote:
Originally posted by SkiFletch
Good to know. Will drop by my local on the way home
it might be more difficult to find a 10 micron filter sock than some phosphate remover

Tom- up to this point macroalgae growth seems unaffected during (ongoing) treatments. (I just yanked a bunch of it out of the 'fuge yesterday.)
I haven't been monitoring nitrates for quite some time now because they're usually negligible.


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Old 10/27/2008, 08:25 PM   #17
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Heh, true that


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Old 10/27/2008, 09:40 PM   #18
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Gary, Just curious . What test kit are you using for nitrate and are you happy with it?. I get 0 or 5ppm from red sea and API and as much a 40ppm with salifert. Even more variation than with phosphate testing. Do you have an opinion or anecdotal information on nitrate meters?
I'm with you on going after phosphate since it's deleterious effects are worse than nitrate, in my opinion, but now I want to get a bit more precise on NO3 and truly know what it is and manage it to around 10ppm. I will be adding a second skimmer and another DSB soon but would really like to get reliable numbers. With a large variety of organisms in the system I'm searching for optimal nutrient levels.


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Old 10/28/2008, 03:29 PM   #19
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I use the API nitrate test kit.
I don't know much about nitrate meters


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Old 10/28/2008, 04:43 PM   #20
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Picked up my Lanthanum on the way home. If anyone locally in amherst/buffalo want's to try this stuff for a couple bucks, lemme know, I've now got 2 liters of it which sounds like it may last me a lifetime... I'll start adding it to topoff water tonight on my nano and let everyone know how I get along. Not risking the main display just yet...


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Old 10/28/2008, 05:21 PM   #21
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I question using this treatment on a nano tank

I use 5 millilitres of lanthanum chloride dissolved into 1 litre of water for treatment on my 300 gallon system.

When I do water changes I change out 55 gallons water at a time.

Lanthanum chloride should be used in conjunction with a 10 micron filter and a skimmer- you don't simply pour it into an aquarium.

to reduce phosphates it would be easier (and safer) to change out a nano tank's entire water volume IMO.


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Old 10/28/2008, 05:26 PM   #22
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Very smart Gary!

Do you plan to continue with lanthanum routinely or switch to something else to maintain?

John


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Old 10/28/2008, 05:50 PM   #23
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Hah, I hear that gary about the concentration. The reason i wanted to try it on the nano was just to put a few drops in and make sure what I have doesn't kill the xenia and mushrooms I have in there. I'm more concerned with the solution's purity. The nano in my case is really just a coral QT in which I have nothing valuable at the moment, being ideal as a simple purity test bed. Then provided the corals in there don't suffer I'll begin using it on my 65g with the skimmer and the fine particulate filtration. Make sense? Sorry bout that, should have been more clear onthe situation


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Old 10/28/2008, 06:44 PM   #24
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Mike- I don't know exactly what you're using over there but please make sure to dilute any lanthanum chloride product with freshwater before using it in any aquarium.

John- I plan on continuing treatments.
Short term results indicate this is a safe, effective and cost efficient method of reducing PO4. As you're already aware, I'm not the person that came up with this idea! Joe Y @ Atlantis on Long Island uses lanthanum treatments on his big reef display. So does the Georgia Aquarium... as well as many others having large fish populations (ie: heavy feedings) along with living corals. I'm not aware of the results of long term lanthanum use in reef aquaria. This is kind of new.


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Old 10/28/2008, 06:54 PM   #25
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Gary-

Any issues with alkalinity? Before I dialed in a dose (30-40 ml in 40 gallons of RO topoff) I did notice a drop, and on one occasion did manage to get something rather hard and white complexed on my glass. No ill effects noted among fish or fauna. If I dose again, I'm gonna try the 10 micron filter. I think the magnum pleated filter is 10 micron, might try dripping into that.

John


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