Finally! In Tank AEFW Treatment Success

[msderganc]

I think that this is a great find, but primarily for dipping corals.

I'd prefer to use the Levamisole in tank treatment, probably combined with some timing plan to break the reproductive cycle. I just don't see how I could remove all of my fish, and I couldn't dose something to the tank as a whole that would knowingly kill any of the fish.

[afernandez]

Even tho I have no acros in the tank I want to do this treatment .. I'm just hesitant bc I don't want to remove my fish (bc I would have to take all the rocks out ) and i don't want destroy my rock work.

[Aquattro]

Originally Posted by afernandez

Even tho I have no acros in the tank I want to do this treatment

What would be the point in doing this if you don't have acros?

[afernandez]

I had a breakout & I removed all acros out of my system . So I want to exterminate just a though ...not solid

Also considering flatworm exit. Tank right now only has Lps/zoos and fish

[Aquattro]

If you have no acro tissue, I'd just wait it out and they'll die off on their own. While this sounds like it has potential, it also has risks and i wouldn't do it "just in case"

[afernandez]

Thanks ..I completely understand that ...And I don't want some unknown chemical lingering around after its all set and done . (Just a though)

the only thing that concerns me that they might still be in the system laying eggs and I'm wishing I can Nuke them from the source. And get rid of them 1000% percent which at this point we are not even close to doing

[Laser Lammons]

Originally Posted by Aquattro

If you have no acro tissue, I'd just wait it out and they'll die off on their own. While this sounds like it has potential, it also has risks and i wouldn't do it "just in case"

As I stated earlier this was done in "desperation" for the acros. We did loose fish and many tank inhabitants. You can also expect a major algae outbreak (mini cycle) due to all the die off from the little ones. We are fighting that already and really looking forward to the second treatment observations. If we see no aefw we will continue to watch the eggs and make sure there is no hatching.
I WOULD NOT RECOMMEND THIS AS A JUST IN CASE METHOD. At least at this point in the game..

[Laser Lammons]

I have been able to get in contact with Kate Rawlison and she is taking a look at the threads from the UK now! Hopefully she will chime in soon and let us know what her thoughs are on the eggs. I am on my way to my brothers house now to take pics of the eggs and check them out.

[Laser Lammons]

shots from day 13

[KateRawlinson]

Great photos - those egg capsules are all open (see the little open circle in each egg capsule - that is the 'trapdoor' that opens at hatching) and I can't tell whether they hatched before or after the Potassium Chloride treatment. At hatching the AEFWs probably swim straight into the coral skeleton (but some may spend some time swimming around in the tank). If these eggs hatched before the treatment the hatchlings in the coral skeleton might have had some protection from the increased salinity from the corals own slime, alternatively like the adult worms they might have been killed. Hatchlings are microscopic (0.3mm) so you would need a microscope to assess the impact of KCL on them. If they hatched after the treatment it means that the Potassium Chloride soln wasn't effective at killing off the embryos in their egg capsules.

Your findings are really encouraging especially given the resilience of the Acropora to the treatment, and they have given us some very focused questions to answer.
1) can hatchlings and juveniles (that you can't see with the naked eye) survive this treatment?
2) can the Potassium Chloride solution kill off embryos in the egg capsules?

Flatworms, like corals, use mucous as a protection against environmental changes. Your KCL treatment seemed to work well against the adults and we can now look at the effects on the younger stages.

We are restocking our AEFW tanks with new Acropora now (after a die off due to bacteria) and we can try these experiments shortly.

I think AEFW can grow quite quickly, so if you didn't repeat this treatment for a while, say 4-6 weeks, then did it again and saw small AEFW (5mm) fly off then that might tell you that eggs and hatchlings can survive the treatment.

[Laser Lammons]

Originally Posted by KateRawlinson

Great photos - those egg capsules are all open (see the little open circle in each egg capsule - that is the 'trapdoor' that opens at hatching) and I can't tell whether they hatched before or after the Potassium Chloride treatment. At hatching the AEFWs probably swim straight into the coral skeleton (but some may spend some time swimming around in the tank). If these eggs hatched before the treatment the hatchlings in the coral skeleton might have had some protection from the increased salinity from the corals own slime, alternatively like the adult worms they might have been killed. Hatchlings are microscopic (0.3mm) so you would need a microscope to assess the impact of KCL on them. If they hatched after the treatment it means that the Potassium Chloride soln wasn't effective at killing off the embryos in their egg capsules.

Your findings are really encouraging especially given the resilience of the Acropora to the treatment, and they have given us some very focused questions to answer.
1) can hatchlings and juveniles (that you can't see with the naked eye) survive this treatment?
2) can the Potassium Chloride solution kill off embryos in the egg capsules?

Flatworms, like corals, use mucous as a protection against environmental changes. Your KCL treatment seemed to work well against the adults and we can now look at the effects on the younger stages.

We are restocking our AEFW tanks with new Acropora now (after a die off due to bacteria) and we can try these experiments shortly.

I think AEFW can grow quite quickly, so if you didn't repeat this treatment for a while, say 4-6 weeks, then did it again and saw small AEFW (5mm) fly off then that might tell you that eggs and hatchlings can survive the treatment.

This is copy of email that was replied to Kate:

Thanks for taking the time to view the aefw and give your expertise. It is really important to know that the eggs had already hatched and thanks again for your insight. Do you have any acro with aefw eggs currently alive? If so a dip treatment with the KCL can be prepared by adding 1 teaspoon of dry KCL to 1/2 gallon of water. That is equivalent to the whole tank treatment that was performed. It would be really interesting to know if the treatment effects the eggs or if they were already hatched before the treatment.
Now for the go ahead plan:
option 1 - continue on with the second treatment tonight assuming the treatment does not effect the eggs (this is 14 days since last treatment) or would you recommend to wait a longer period such as 21 days due to a hatch time?
option 2- do nothing going forward and observe over time - knowing that a further treatment could be necessary(4 to 6 weeks) to watch aefw possibly grow and re-infest the acro colonies. --- seems a bit concerning to the wellfare of the SPS over time if the aefw was not killed the first treatment.

So if I did the treatment tonight do you not feel that we could conclude that the initial treatment did not kill the eggs? Assuming that we see small or any aefw. I am in a pickle now as to what would be best going forward.

[Laser Lammons]

here is response on email from Kate:

Our most recent experiments show that eggs hatch 11-14 days at 27C. I've got to run now, but will get back to you in 4 hours time as to what to do next. Saving your corals is the most important thing right now. Lets discuss later, Kate.

[OnceTrueFalseBr]

Just a question, not trying to be all animal cruelty, but by "success", that means saving the SPS Corals at the possible sacrifice of the fish?

[OnceTrueFalseBr]

Originally Posted by msderganc

I think that this is a great find, but primarily for dipping corals.

I'd prefer to use the Levamisole in tank treatment, probably combined with some timing plan to break the reproductive cycle. I just don't see how I could remove all of my fish, and I couldn't dose something to the tank as a whole that would knowingly kill any of the fish.

+1

We QT the fish from the DT when they get ICH to save the corals.

We dose the DT to save the corals without batting an eye at the death of the fish.

Does this sound proper?

why not QT/HT the corals?

It is beginning to seem that Money "Invested"(hundreds and thousands on corals) trumps the life(20 - 200$) fish acquired in this hobby...

[sahin]

Originally Posted by afernandez

Thanks ..I completely understand that ...And I don't want some unknown chemical lingering around after its all set and done . (Just a though)

the only thing that concerns me that they might still be in the system laying eggs and I'm wishing I can Nuke them from the source. And get rid of them 1000% percent which at this point we are not even close to doing

I'd use Levamisole if you really wanted to ensure AEFW were gone for good. Without an acro present in the tank, they'd die out anyway.

[Laser Lammons]

Originally Posted by OnceTrueFalseBr

Just a question, not trying to be all animal cruelty, but by "success", that means saving the SPS Corals at the possible sacrifice of the fish?

We lost 4 fish in all and were able to get about 15 fish in a 100 gallon horse trough for safe keeping until the treatment is over. 4 fish are still in the display and we have been trying to catch them since the first treatment. I did state that we felt the fish would suffer upon intro of the first treatment so we did all we could to remove them prior and were able to scoop up several more when they were stunned. I feel that by doing this treatment we have saved about 100 acro colonies at the sacrifice of the 4 fish so yes I do consider it a success in the tank we were treating.
Now if the tank has a few acros that can actually be removed then the dipping method is surely the best way. I will say that on my brothers tank before intro into his dispay he did run a 3 month QT with a dipping program consisting of bayer. I can assure you that all the acros that went into his tank were properly dipped but the eggs are able to make it through so any new frag that is introduced,even if dipped, has the potential to bring in eggs. As does liverock, other coral frags possibly, you name it and it could bring it into a captive system. He did not QT 6 frags that were introduced into his tank about 2-3 months ago but did dip them. That is where the AEFW had to come from and we will not point fingers as to where they came from as that is not what this thread is all about. Just trying to share my experience and possibly help others in the future.
So how to keep them out. qt with dips and no acro in display until proper time cycle achieved. Any new frag intro must go through same process to assure no eggs hatching.
Personally, I will never add anything more than a fresh cut acro, unmounted, dipped, then remounted to assure no eggs under base.
Best I can tell anyway..

[jda]

...what is the sales pitch on doing this over using Levamisole? ...or is it just an either-or kind of thing?

Also, any way to know/suppose that it was the potassium and not the elevated chloride ions or salinity?

[Laser Lammons]

Originally Posted by jda

...what is the sales pitch on doing this over using Levamisole? ...or is it just an either-or kind of thing?

Also, any way to know/suppose that it was the potassium and not the elevated chloride ions or salinity?

I suppose either/or depending on your setup

I dont know as a chemist but I can say that previous to treatment of entire tank we did dip some corals and saw aefw being obliterated. We only used 1 teaspoon in a half gallon so salinity not raised enough to matter IMO. Elevated Cl maybe some effect but Randy would have to chime in on that one. I think previous data using http://wamas.org/forums/topic/33942-...m-aefw-thread/ makes me think it is the elevated potassium...

[afernandez]

Originally Posted by sahin

I'd use Levamisole if you really wanted to ensure AEFW were gone for good. Without an acro present in the tank, they'd die out anyway.

Thanks bud!

Great more reading lol! I don't know too much about levamisole ..the very little I know is that ppl used it in the past and it crashed a few systems . But like I said I don't know much on it at all. I will read up on this topic .

Any advise at this point and time is appreciated . What's conserning me is "something's" in my overflow that look like some type of flat worm but are much larger. I will take some pictures when I get home

[Laser Lammons]

Spoke with Kate this evening and here is what she said:

"For the sake of your acropora I would go ahead and do a second treatment tonight. It will be interesting to see if anymore big AEFW (that are visible with the naked eye) come off, if so they will have somehow survived the initial treatment.
We can try the treatment on eggs and hatchlings when we have some. I don't keep a tank myself but I'm collaborating with Cat Dybala in Texas and she has two Acropora tanks that she useds for the AEFW experiments. She has had to restart the tanks after a bacterial infection killed off the corals, so it will be a few months or so until we can try this. She is currently sourcing Acropora and then has to "source" the AEFW!
I think that to accurately tell whether the KCL solution is killing the embryos we will need a good microscope and I have access to a good one in Texas. Keep us posted on your second treatment - it would be so great if this was the answer to all AEFW problems.
Best,
Kate"

[Laser Lammons]

we have now mixed the second treatment batch and will treat at 10PM central. Wish us luck...

[afernandez]

Interested in second treatment results as well !
Best of luck fighting this war in the front lines

[Laser Lammons]

TREATMENT #2 PERFORMED 12/18/2014

Observations: Minimal AEFW observed. Death toll of all small creatures seemed to be much less than first treatment. There were a few AEFW and all seemed to be proportionate in size around size of rolling pen. I "believe" but certainly cannot substantiate that we were seeing AEFW that had been hatched since the last treatment. We will plan on a third treatment in 2 weeks (Jan 1) as a final treatment.

Coral observations: I have to admit we contemplated not doing the treatment as the acro were looking so good again after the first treatment. We saw a much different response it seemed. Most milles actually kept PE during the treatment and are really looking pretty normal already this morning. Acros slimed again but already have PE this morning as well. It seems the acros built a resistance of sorts and really handled the treatment better this time.

We will observe the snails today to see if they come back again like they did last time from long nap.. We have minimal snails as most were already taken out to QT but enough to observe.

Fish observations: Fish did not seem to build any tolerance to the treatment like the corals did. Understand we only had 4 fish left to base this on but they seemed to be stunned instantly this time and we were able to catch all and transfer into the QT. Happy to report that all are alive this morning and have already eaten. They would not have made it long in tank this time if we would not have caught them I don't believe.



1st treatment yielded changing of filter socks about every 2 hours after first treatment with all the floaters.

2nd treatment yeilded a changing of filter socks directly after treatment and then again this morning so much less death has occured.



We will continue to watch responses and report back findings.

[Laser Lammons]

Continuing with water changes as we did after first treatment. did a 25% change last night 30 minutes after treatment. Performed another 25% change at about 3AM and have performed another 25% change at 9AM. Making more water and will change again this evening. We will then do another 50% change tomorrow morning.

[Laser Lammons]

Forgot to mention that it appears no effect on the LPS again. Zoas/Palys still completely closed but suspect they will open again today as they did first treatment.